Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

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Mar 17, 2021
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#61
Thats fine! But my Focus is not on" all charismatics and pentecostals", but on " empty promisses"" false promisses"
Its an fact that mostly pentecostals and charismatics teach this then other Christians.
My view is that SOME Pentecostals and Charismatics teach it, but the strict pastor who trained me wouldn't have a bar of it. He believed in praying the prayer of faith for sick people, but never believed that the person was healed unless they were actually healed. None of this "healing by faith" rubbish.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#62
Well, 120 years after Topeka and Azusa, the pentecostal movement has changed and splittet much worldwide. Added to this are the charismatic movements which entered the different denominations.
In their theologie they often are different to each other. But the one thing they have common:
The teaching about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign the gift of speaking in tongues. And yes of course the believing that special the gifts: speaking in tongues, healing and prophecie are the same as in the Corinth of Pauls days.
I suppose this Definition is not made from pentecostals ore charismatics.
I actually read my Church History books rather than just had them as door stops. I read that the 18th and 19th Century Methodist Holiness movement believed in and taught the baptism with the Spirit - that it was the Holy Spirit causing them to be totally sanctified by faith. In fact, many referred to themselves as Pentecostals, because they believed that the Holy Spirit filled them in the same way that the disciples were filled on the Day of Pentecost. So this shows that Pentecostal Holiness believers existed before the Pentecostalist movement started at the turn of the 20th Century. Many traditional Pentecostals who went on to embrace the gift of tongues came from the Holiness movements of the 19th Century.

Divine instantaneous healing was part of the Methodist movement. John Wesley had 250 verified healings during the course of his ministry. His horse, Dan, was instantly healed of lameness as the result of prayer, along with Wesley's headache after riding for quite a while with the Horse's uneven gait which caused it. Praise God that the horse had faith to be healed!!

Guy Bevington, a well-known Methodlist Holiness itinerate evangelist, in the Cincinnati region in the early 20th Century, had visions as the result of extended periods of waiting on God for guidance, and a number of remarkable healing of different serious medical conditions, including tuberculosis. As a young preacher, he was introduced to the healing ministry by simple, rural Methodist Holiness farmer who had seriously injured his thumb, but within a day, the thumb was totally healed. Bevington himself was badly burned when a kettle of boiling water fell on his boot, totally filling it. If not medically treated he could have lost his foot. He trusted God and was totally healed within 24 hours. As a matter of interest, he had no connection with the Pentecostals of his time, and had no desire to adopt their practices. But he referred to himself as a Pentecostal, believing in the baptism with the Spirit, even though he never spoke in tongues.
 

randyk

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#63
A structure is only as solid as its foundation. In this short study into Pentecostalism's origins we'll discover whether it's built on solid rock or sinking sand.

Charles Fox Parham, Pentecostalism's acknowledged founder, spent the summer of 1900 at Frank W. Sanford's Holiness commune in Shiloh, Maine. While there, he learned of the Holiness doctrine of an approaching "latter rain," that is, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit which would fall on people as it had in the church's early day. This would be a sign of Christ's imminent return. What scriptural basis is there for the latter rain doctrine? James says: "Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains."—James 5:7 This is the only verse from which a case might be made for a latter rain. So we must understand clearly what this verse actually says. Is James instructing his readers to be patient for the latter rain or for Christ's return. He's clearly encouraging them be patient for the Lord's return using an agricultural metaphor to make his point. There are no other New Testament scriptures from which we can put together a "latter rain" doctrine; it simply isn't taught. In fact, rather than worldwide revival, the scriptures clearly reveal the world will descend into darkness before the Lord's return.

While at Shiloh, Sanford filled Parham's head with tales of foreign missionaries who had spontaneously begun speaking the language of their foreign hosts without ever learning the language. In other words, they could preach to them in their own languages using the gift of tongues. But what evidence is there of this ever really happening? None that I'm aware of. But Parham was fascinated; he was convinced that this was a sure sign of the end-time and Christ's imminent return.

Returning to Topeka, Kansas, Parham established a missionary training center. In December of 1900, he challenged his students to find evidence of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit like what happened in Acts 2. He also suggested that the surest evidence of this would be speaking in tongues. At their New Year's eve service, 1901, right on schedule, Agnes Ozman asked Parham to lay hands on her head and pray she would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ozman began singing in an unknown language, which someone identified as Chinese.

What's strange about this picture? First of all, there's no evidence from the New Testament that missionaries ever used the gift of tongues to preach the good news. When missionaries did eventually go to foreign countries after the "latter rains" started falling, they failed miserably. Secondly, notice that Parham gave his students a suggestion which they pondered for a month. This wasn't a spontaneous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Parham orchestrated the whole thing.

So, the question I leave you with is this: If the tree is bad, how can the fruit possibly be good?
I have read Vinson Synan's history of the Pentecostal/Charismatic origins. I do recall reading about Parham in 1900 having his class. It does seem somewhat "orchestrated." Whether or not God planned for this ultimate outpouring I'm not sure. But when Seymore's church in Los Angeles, on Azusa Str. broke out, it began a 3rd wave in Western Christianity, after Catholicism and Protestantism. Pentecostals have had massive influence through missionary influence around the world. Pentecostal/Charismatic people may number about 2/3 of a billion people! Did God engineer this: I should think so!

But that doesn't mean that God sanctioned everything that has happened under the umbrella of Pentecostal teaching. The Prayer Language supposedly the birthright of all Pentecostal believers is not biblical. The Bible says that the Spirit gives gifts "as He wills." Not all have the same gifts, and none have *all* the gifts. The hand is not the foot.

I disagree with the doctrine of the imminent, Pretrib Coming of Christ, which Pentecostals hold to. They also have a Dominion Theology type of attitude. The Assemblies of God, of which I'm a member, deny they are part of the Faith Teaching movement. At the same time they are in fact replete with Faith Doctrine of various kinds--just not Prosperity Teaching.

I do think it's important to recognize that God still awards gifts to individuals in His Church today. But it is equally important that we operate gifts *by His guidance,* and not by some formula to obtain pre-determined results.

I joined Pentecostals because they had teaching that I identified with, with respect to spiritual revelation and spiritual power. I had fashioned my own Christian experience in the mold of Watchman Nee, who was not a Pentecostal. But he was very Christ-centered and mystical in his relationship with Christ. And I found the Pentecostals to be much the same. And I believe strongly in a strong, close link with the Lord in our lives. Most good churches do preach an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. And those that do are good in my book.
 

randyk

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#64
I will say this, that there is an element of realized Millennialism in the Pentecostal Church. By that I mean that the exhibition of and their experience of God's power sometimes leads them to believe they have "dominion" in the present age. They command things through faith, and expect all to be healed by the prayer of faith.

I know that some of these things can be extracted from the Scriptures, without applying the proper context. But we are expressly denied the right to act as if Christ has come *in us.* In other words, we are not to act as if we are experiencing victory over the world in any material sense, except with respect to "signs and wonders." Signs and wonders are for a testimony, and not a declaration of present material and political victory over the world.

I think the effort to push Christianity into secular states where the majority are more pluralistic is causing a reaction by the secular powers. And as a result Christianity is being diminished and exposed as weak and misrepresentative of having this so-called authority.

The Kingdom is not yet, and Satan does win victories over the Church in a material sense at times. But our victory now is in the fact we hold to the testimony of our salvation, and are enabled to declare the Gospel throughout the earth to all peoples. Then and only then will the end come.
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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#65
Sources?? There were movements in the 1800's that led to the eventual development of Pentecostalism, but 1700's in Eastern Europe and Africa??
The Wesley brothers would be considered Charismatic. Charles preached the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for sure. I have a CD of hymns he wrote and one is exactly about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are references in John Wesley's writings also. They were active in the 1700's.
was? you just hate those who have the name pentacostel and we don't claim to heal are you hard of hearing? I claim God heals today and yes I have prayed for people and God healed them. You think we believe we can heal? LOL, there is no doctrine in the pentecostal church of three I know of and the one I am a minister in where you can find in writing where it says man heals.

You are baring of false witness. Jesus said these signs will follow them that believe after Thomas saw Jesus rose from the dead.

You look in the bible to see what you think God doesn't do anymore. You said

: "I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India"

Was? why not anymore? You retired or something? That's right God is impressed with your moral living right. You don't have to obey the great commission because you have done so much? Hey, guess what Jesus said He could not do many works to you know why?

Their unbelief. I to have left the church after being prayed for still sick and I guess you think that is God's fault? You are just a hateful person.

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works?


The Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission.

Where is your proof TODAY of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.



Have you ever prayed for a sick person? You are fast to jump on those who do and are not healed as you say what about you? Do you pray for the sick and were they healed OR do you just attack those who exercise their faith?


If you pray for the sick tell us now and if they were not healed why not? You bring false HOPE? OR did you say it was God's will that they were not healed AFTER YOU PRAYED FOR THEM do you pray for your sick family and friends? Or do you tell them Good luck?
I've been prayed for and received miracle healing. I've prayed for others and they've been healed. I've prayed for myself and been healed. I also know that God does not always heal instantly. There can be a spiritual blockage that hinders prayer. God can use sickness to bring about a change of heart attitude and deliver people from presumptuous pride and self confidence. God does not make people sick. Sin is the root of sickness and Satan is the one who afflicts people.

God's will is always to heal. But not everyone gets healed for a number of reasons. I can expand on that if you wish.
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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#66
I have read Vinson Synan's history of the Pentecostal/Charismatic origins. I do recall reading about Parham in 1900 having his class. It does seem somewhat "orchestrated." Whether or not God planned for this ultimate outpouring I'm not sure. But when Seymore's church in Los Angeles, on Azusa Str. broke out, it began a 3rd wave in Western Christianity, after Catholicism and Protestantism. Pentecostals have had massive influence through missionary influence around the world. Pentecostal/Charismatic people may number about 2/3 of a billion people! Did God engineer this: I should think so!

But that doesn't mean that God sanctioned everything that has happened under the umbrella of Pentecostal teaching. The Prayer Language supposedly the birthright of all Pentecostal believers is not biblical. The Bible says that the Spirit gives gifts "as He wills." Not all have the same gifts, and none have *all* the gifts. The hand is not the foot.

I disagree with the doctrine of the imminent, Pretrib Coming of Christ, which Pentecostals hold to. They also have a Dominion Theology type of attitude. The Assemblies of God, of which I'm a member, deny they are part of the Faith Teaching movement. At the same time they are in fact replete with Faith Doctrine of various kinds--just not Prosperity Teaching.

I do think it's important to recognize that God still awards gifts to individuals in His Church today. But it is equally important that we operate gifts *by His guidance,* and not by some formula to obtain pre-determined results.

I joined Pentecostals because they had teaching that I identified with, with respect to spiritual revelation and spiritual power. I had fashioned my own Christian experience in the mold of Watchman Nee, who was not a Pentecostal. But he was very Christ-centered and mystical in his relationship with Christ. And I found the Pentecostals to be much the same. And I believe strongly in a strong, close link with the Lord in our lives. Most good churches do preach an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. And those that do are good in my book.
Watchman Nee taught that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is indeed for this day and age. I've read a lot of his books and I value them highly. I follow his concept of the Church in that he rejected denominationalism totally. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974. I studied and observed it for 3 years before receiving the gift. I'm glad that the Lord led me that way. It's saved me from falling into some of the errors that put me off for that 3 year period.
 

randyk

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#67
Watchman Nee taught that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is indeed for this day and age. I've read a lot of his books and I value them highly. I follow his concept of the Church in that he rejected denominationalism totally. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit Christmas Eve 1974. I studied and observed it for 3 years before receiving the gift. I'm glad that the Lord led me that way. It's saved me from falling into some of the errors that put me off for that 3 year period.
It was also around Xmas in 1970 that I realized. to my shame, that I had neglected acting like a Christian. I was probably on drugs, but couldn't shake the conviction in my mind. I ultimately went over to one of my best friends and told him, frankly, I'm giving my life to Jesus. I've never looked back. I lost all of my friends in the world. I gained new friends in Christ.

Some of my worldly friends had become associated with a Pentecostal Jesus People group in my area. And so I attended Monday evening gatherings to praise the Lord, and Sunday services at a flower shop where an ex-Lutheran pastor was trying to start a new church. He had been kicked out of the Lutheran church for teaching the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and "speaking in tongues."

A spiritual explosion came out of the people that met at that time, and many of them are still going strong today. The Holy Spirit is very real in the lives of these people. I can't say that their doctrine is always right, nor that what they experience is always "God." I don't believe we have a definitive "Prayer Language" that all of us should experience. But I do believe that some have the gift of Tongues.

Watchman Nee remains very high on my list of influences--perhaps the most influential teacher in my life. But there's been many Penteocstal/Charismatic teachers who have taught me much throughout the years. And inspired teaching is far superior to strictly academic instruction. Every genuine pastor knows that.
 

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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#68
was? you just hate those who have the name pentacostel and we don't claim to heal are you hard of hearing? I claim God heals today and yes I have prayed for people and God healed them. You think we believe we can heal? LOL, there is no doctrine in the pentecostal church of three I know of and the one I am a minister in where you can find in writing where it says man heals.

You are baring of false witness. Jesus said these signs will follow them that believe after Thomas saw Jesus rose from the dead.

You look in the bible to see what you think God doesn't do anymore. You said

: "I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India"

Was? why not anymore? You retired or something? That's right God is impressed with your moral living right. You don't have to obey the great commission because you have done so much? Hey, guess what Jesus said He could not do many works to you know why?

Their unbelief. I to have left the church after being prayed for still sick and I guess you think that is God's fault? You are just a hateful person.

The God I serve still saves, heals, and set free. He is immutable unchanging. The same yesterday today and forever.

You don't pray for the sick? You don't hit the streets and go to places to repel evil works?


The Lord Jesus still saves, delivers, and breaks addictions, Heals, and restores. God is still confirming HIS word today why are you not seeing it? Because you are not out there fulfilling the great commission.

Where is your proof TODAY of doing the work that the body ALL the body is to be doing or do you just sit in the pews and say that the job of the pastor? Then you think you are theologically sound to attack the gifts of the Holy Spirit a Christian is using in faith?

Go to your slums, projects, and prisons, take your bible open it up and start reading it out loud just do that. And report back to us how many you led to Christ seen set free from addictions. Oh ya, Go to a community outside of your own ethnicity.



Have you ever prayed for a sick person? You are fast to jump on those who do and are not healed as you say what about you? Do you pray for the sick and were they healed OR do you just attack those who exercise their faith?


If you pray for the sick tell us now and if they were not healed why not? You bring false HOPE? OR did you say it was God's will that they were not healed AFTER YOU PRAYED FOR THEM do you pray for your sick family and friends? Or do you tell them Good luck?
Well, where in the bible it is promissed that christians will live without sickness on earth?
Of course I pray for sick people. But I leave it on my fathers will to heal ore to carry through. In both cases the honor is to the father.
And again you missread my post. Nowhere I deney that God is healing and doing miracals
today.
I hate nobody even not you. I suppose you dont like lies ore be deceived ore like to hear false promisses,too.
So no need to scolding me.
You really want to know, why I was involved in Mission ministrie? What not means that I stopped supporting mission ministrie since I am a child of God?
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
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#69
The Wesley brothers would be considered Charismatic. Charles preached the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for sure. I have a CD of hymns he wrote and one is exactly about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There are references in John Wesley's writings also. They were active in the 1700's.
Wesley founded what is today the Methodist Church; not Pentecostalism.
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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#70
are you an unbeliever? you can be saved and yet an unbeliever, you believe some mebbe the most of the gospel, arguably you believe the most precious and important parts [and there is an argument there] and yet the things concerning the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit you do not believe. Tongues are a sign to you.

For us who believe it is a prayer language and a source of edification.
Oh dear, another one of your mish mash of mixed musings of nonsensical prognostications.
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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#71
This is not the problem. Not all what is written in the bible is for all times.
It may be that God is uesing speaking in tongues ( foreign languages) for to call people in his family, today
But the pentecostal teaching since Topeka and Azusa was neither taught in the bible to believers, nor in the churchhistory.
And No one could give me the proof for the oposit.
Not all what is written in the bible is for all times. So we pick and choose the bits that we like? Oh, I forgot, most churches do pick and choose the bits that they like.

And what is the pentecostal teaching since Topeka and Azusa?
 

mustaphadrink

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Dec 13, 2013
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#72
I've already said why I believe it's still around—God has allowed it to stay around:

"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."—2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' "—Matthew 7:21-23

Notice what these people said in the above quote: "In Your name!" They aren't people who did things for their own glory; they're people who had the misguided belief they were doing something for His glory.

"Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"—Luke 18:8
So all of pentecostalism in all its forms and expressions is a delusion and false? Is that what you are claiming?
 

Evmur

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#73
Oh dear, another one of your mish mash of mixed musings of nonsensical prognostications.
No no there are plenty of unbelievers in the church, there always have been, we see even after the Lord had risen and even while He addressed the disciples for the last time, saying "these signs shall follow those who believe" we read ".... but some doubted"

There is one thing that is certain in this thing, you won't get anything from God by doubting, in fact it is something that niggles God so that He will actually hide it from folks who will not believe, people can be healed right in front of them and yet they still disbelieve.

And when unbelief becomes wilful, that is set in doctrinal terms a hardness of heart and a root of bitterness set in and oh boy we have seen that in the evangelical church.

Let them change their minds, repent. Nobody is asking them to become disciples of Benny Hinn but let them go back to the bible with honest and open minds. That's what they should have done in the first place.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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#74
No no there are plenty of unbelievers in the church, there always have been, we see even after the Lord had risen and even while He addressed the disciples for the last time, saying "these signs shall follow those who believe" we read ".... but some doubted"

There is one thing that is certain in this thing, you won't get anything from God by doubting, in fact it is something that niggles God so that He will actually hide it from folks who will not believe, people can be healed right in front of them and yet they still disbelieve.

And when unbelief becomes wilful, that is set in doctrinal terms a hardness of heart and a root of bitterness set in and oh boy we have seen that in the evangelical church.

Let them change their minds, repent. Nobody is asking them to become disciples of Benny Hinn but let them go back to the bible with honest and open minds. That's what they should have done in the first place.
More mish mash of nonsensical musings with enough red herrings to make a fisherman jealous.
 

Evmur

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#76
Then what is in your eyes an pentecostal?
The name pentecostal came up with the events in Topeka and Azuza. And the teaching that speaking in tongues is the sign that someone is baptised with the Holy Spirit.
Which you cant find before. You can find speaking in tongues before in Christian groups and in sects, but not this particular teaching.
So the persons you mentioned where no pentecostals.
Today all pentecostals and charismatics have common, that they teach that without speaking in tongues no baptism with the Holy Spirit for empowerment, ore as some believe ( oneness pentecostals ) no salvation.
Pentecostal and certainly Charismatic churches do not uniformly believe that "no speaking in tongues = no baptism in the Holy Ghost" in fact so far as I know only the AOG teach it.

Bunyan in the 2nd part of Pilgrim's Progress alludes to Pentecostals by that name, not I add in a complimentary way. He had a spat going with George Fox and the Quakers who was known for his prophecies and healing miracles. So Bunyan was almost certainly referring to them.

The one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit never has to ask or wonder "have I been so baptized?" it is such a distinct work, being filled every day with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit is another kettle of fish.

C. H. Spurgeon was certainly baptized in the Holy Spirit [we read many manifestations in his life which show that] quite apart from his outstanding love of the bible, his gift of preaching, his word of knowledge and word of wisdom. C. H. Spurgeon was pentecostal by experience.

But this is true throughout church history, men and women have arisen with remarkable gifts of knowledge and wisdom even prophetic gifts, so SOME gifts and charismata have always been recognised. Therefore if God can furnish His church with knowledge and wisdom and faith why do folks baulk at tongues and interpretation?

If these other gifts and workings of the Holy Spirit have not ceased nor have tongues and interpretation ceased.
 

Evmur

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#77
I was 20 years involved in Mission ministry in India and I know that the Lord works today.
That is for my without doubt. But I doubt to the empty promisses which are given from pentecostals and charismatics about healing.
When people attend a healing service and leave it still sick, then the problem is not with the sick people, but with the people who promiss healing. Who give a false promiss. Thats in my eyes deceiver.
When people came to Jesus while he was on earth, they left Him healed.
Jesus healings and the apostles healinhs had a purpose for a special time.
What Jesus said to Thomas? You believe in me because you saw my wounds. Blessed be those who believe without seeing.
I have not deneyed that Jesus is doing healings and miracles today. But I dont believe the false claimes I often hear from pentecostals and charismatics.
What about sinners who attend a salvation meeting and leave unsaved? has that ever happened to you? were you to blame? I'm glad you went to them with the message, with the promise.

The promise is there and it is sure "Himself bare our sins in His own body on the tree" we will stake our lives upon it. Right next to it in scripture, in the same portion "Himself bare our diseases and carried our sickness"

If one is true they are both true, each as true as the other, not one more true than the other.

You may ask why are not all healed and I may ask why are not all saved ... but let us not question God's word.
 

Evmur

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#78
Sources?? There were movements in the 1800's that led to the eventual development of Pentecostalism, but 1700's in Eastern Europe and Africa??
Bunyan mentions Pentecostal by name in Pilgrim's Progress, he was talking about the belief not denominations. Prolly he was alluding to the Quakers.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#79
Well, where in the bible it is promissed that christians will live without sickness on earth?
Of course I pray for sick people. But I leave it on my fathers will to heal ore to carry through. In both cases the honor is to the father.
And again you missread my post. Nowhere I deney that God is healing and doing miracals
today.
I hate nobody even not you. I suppose you dont like lies ore be deceived ore like to hear false promisses,too.
So no need to scolding me.
You really want to know, why I was involved in Mission ministrie? What not means that I stopped supporting mission ministrie since I am a child of God?

I Asked you IF YOU PRAY FOR THE SICK YES OR NO? You said yes you do pray for the sick and you leave it up to the Father, did the Father ever answer your prayer request?


I want to hear how the God you claim to know saved, set free those who were addicted, and held the sick IS there anything wrong with wanting to see that? You were involved?

What are you doing today? IF you have an issue with those you think are lying don't attribute that to all Pentecostals because it is not. As many have said before but you are so hateful you refuse to see it so I WILL SAY IT AGAIN TO YOU IN THIS THREAD.


The foolishness of those on TV that fleece the flock for money has done much to hurt people using the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as Simon the sorcerer desired to do. WE have said that many times yet you think you know our history you don't. You are regurgitating sound bites of those who believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.

Yet you don't pray for the sick anymore apparently and doing nothing in ministry today.

You are in Germany, right? I understand the fear you must have to preach the gospel in your secular humanistic Government who most likely will throw you in jail. Or maybe you are wanting to do what we do and are sick that fear has stopped you.

Here in California, we are fighting our Govoner and those over us and we are winning.

I think Germany's Christians are waiting for another holocaust as I hear many don't even believe it happened. You keep attacking us all you want. We will stand no matter what we are not wimps and have no fear. Our power is in God, not us.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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#80
Bunyan mentions Pentecostal by name in Pilgrim's Progress, he was talking about the belief not denominations. Prolly he was alluding to the Quakers.
if one studies without a bias the history of the Holy Spirit in all the church ages is there.

They will focus on those with a bias will attack them because they were not perfect yet give a pass to John Calvin, Luther, and many others because they hold to the reformed theology can't address the imperfection of those men, must protect the TUILP and attack those who don't hold to our mind-set.