The destruction of the Temple in 70 AD

It's interesting. Though when John goes into heaven it is to see the future.

Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

prior to the Lamb being slain by Jesus at the OD

Can you explain this portion to me? I may be misreading the phrase "the lamb being slain by Jesus". Also, I'm not sure what OD means.

Do you think that the things in the seven sealed scroll were opened and looked upon prior to the Lamb being slain? Your explanation of it's contents has it being opened(loosed) and explained(looked upon by men) prior to the Lamb being slain by Jesus at the OD. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

Olivet discourse(OD) ,,,,the things in the 7 sealed scroll do you think Jesus explained them to the disciples and the Jews prior to his crucifixion(before he died) or were the seals loosed and they were looked upon after he died?

Ahh ok. Derp! Of course, that's what it means lol.

If I misunderstand your question just hit me with it again in another way, but I believe the only explanation He gave to His disciples about those judgments was at the Olivet Discourse. They asked when the temple would be destroyed and what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. There was no further explanation given as far as we read.

Meanwhile, I think these judgments were actually loosed the moment the Messiah ascended to the throne 10 days before Pentecost (Book of Acts).

Man looking at or knowing about the seal judgments isn't an effect of them being loose. Its contents weren't a secret. The visions of the book of Revelation were never sealed like the visions in the book of Daniel were. The scroll found in the hand of the Almighty in Revelation 5 is most likely a scroll of judgments just like we see in the vision given to Zechariah.


Zechariah 5:1-4
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.


Right after this (in Zechariah 6), Zechariah is given another vision of four chariots riding across the land with the purpose of "quieting the Almighty's Spirit".

-----

Now, if we go back to the scene in Revelation 6, the four horsemen were sent out from the throne room as the Messiah loosed 4 of the 7 seals on the scroll, with each horseman causing a judgment. The Messiah warned His people about them because those things had to (or have to) happen first before the end of the age and His coming.

So John ascends into Heaven, is taken back to 33AD, and sees the scroll opened by Jesus once he had overcome?

Ahh ok. Derp! Of course, that's what it means lol.

If I misunderstand your question just hit me with it again in another way, but I believe the only explanation He gave to His disciples about those judgments was at the Olivet Discourse. They asked when the temple would be destroyed and what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. There was no further explanation given as far as we read.

Meanwhile, I think these judgments were actually loosed the moment the Messiah ascended to the throne 10 days before Pentecost (Book of Acts).

Man looking at or knowing about the seal judgments isn't an effect of them being loose. Its contents weren't a secret. The visions of the book of Revelation were never sealed like the visions in the book of Daniel were. The scroll found in the hand of the Almighty in Revelation 5 is most likely a scroll of judgments just like we see in the vision given to Zechariah.


Zechariah 5:1-4
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.


Right after this (in Zechariah 6), Zechariah is given another vision of four chariots riding across the land with the purpose of "quieting the Almighty's Spirit".

-----

Now, if we go back to the scene in Revelation 6, the four horsemen were sent out from the throne room as the Messiah loosed 4 of the 7 seals on the scroll, with each horseman causing a judgment. The Messiah warned His people about them because those things had to (or have to) happen first before the end of the age and His coming.

Ahh ok. Derp! Of course, that's what it means lol.

If I misunderstand your question just hit me with it again in another way, but I believe the only explanation He gave to His disciples about those judgments was at the Olivet Discourse. They asked when the temple would be destroyed and what would be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age. There was no further explanation given as far as we read.

Meanwhile, I think these judgments were actually loosed the moment the Messiah ascended to the throne 10 days before Pentecost (Book of Acts).

Man looking at or knowing about the seal judgments isn't an effect of them being loose. Its contents weren't a secret. The visions of the book of Revelation were never sealed like the visions in the book of Daniel were. The scroll found in the hand of the Almighty in Revelation 5 is most likely a scroll of judgments just like we see in the vision given to Zechariah.


Zechariah 5:1-4
5 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.


Right after this (in Zechariah 6), Zechariah is given another vision of four chariots riding across the land with the purpose of "quieting the Almighty's Spirit".

-----

Now, if we go back to the scene in Revelation 6, the four horsemen were sent out from the throne room as the Messiah loosed 4 of the 7 seals on the scroll, with each horseman causing a judgment. The Messiah warned His people about them because those things had to (or have to) happen first before the end of the age and His coming.

But I think it starts from the actual date Yahshua....e.g. 95AD

REV 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place

REV 4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

It I think says it was defiantly sealed (verses 1-4) and that none were able to open it in heaven,the earth nor under the earth until Jesus was slain. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/5.htm

The 'precision' he referred to --- he missed it - because he left out Mark's account and did not pay close enough attention to the 'grammar of the language'.

The end result is error due to misinterpretation of the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse.

I think both of you are addressing the same issue with my eschatology with regard to time but from different angles. Let me see if I can explain this differently knowing words can sometimes fail, but here goes...


------

27 - 33 AD

Messiah predicts 6 events that must happen before the end. There are more events also predicted but let's stick with these.

- No one but the Messiah gave this prediction.

- No one but He had this knowledge (given by the Father).

- Messiah is on earth and hasn't been crucified, hasn't resurrected, or has ascended.


Messiah's present time (27-33AD) -----------> 6 judgments to be loosed in future


95 AD

John is given a vision FROM THE MESSIAH (through the angel) of things he has seen, currently is, and will be.

- No one but the Messiah gave these visions.

- No one but the Messiah had this knowledge (given by the Father).

- Messiah has been in Heaven ON HIS FATHER'S THRONE for at least 62 years (scripture confirms that He ascended to the throne).

-----

If it's true that the Messiah has been on the throne for 62 years by the time John is given the vision of the throne room, why don't we see a vision of the Messiah already on the throne in Revelation 4 if all of it is John's future? And why is no one found worthy to open the sealed scroll in heaven or earth or below the earth in Revelation 5 if the risen Messiah is already there (John weeps because no one is found)?

The Messiah (himself) then appears to take the scroll and then begins to break its seals as soon as He's there...but when did He get there? When did He arrive in heaven?

----

6 Judgments already loosed <----------- John's present time (95AD)

But we know from Hebrews that the Lamb was seated beside Abba after the resurrection.

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

And I don't understand the worthy reasoning. The worth was established at Calvary.

“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Exactly! 100% true.

So then what we're seeing in Revelation 4 and the very beginning of Revelation 5 - when no one is found worthy - is a brief moment in heaven JUST BEFORE the Messiah ascends to heaven after finishing His work, in 27-33AD.

----

He was/is always the obedient Son, but only after He finished the work the Almighty gave was He worthy to sit on the Father's throne.

----

As soon as the Messiah appears in heaven in Revelation 5 everyone worships Him and celebrates. He immediately takes the scroll and begins to break its seals in Revelation 6.

So the breaking of the seals had to have begun sometime around 27-33AD when worthy Messiah returned to heaven. And since John was watching this vision unfold in the spirit in 95AD, this specific moment he witnessed of breaking the first seals was a flashback.

-----

Meanwhile, we have the benefit of having all of this information so we can put the pieces together. We're even told that just before Stephen was stoned heaven opened and he saw the Messiah standing at the right hand (Acts 7:56). Records date the stoning of Stephen at 34AD, so the Messiah was definitely in the throne room long before John was given his visions in 95AD.

Rough Timeline:
27-33AD) Messiah predicts judgment at OD. John and Apostles are listening.


27-33AD) Messiah dies, resurrects, and fellowships with John and disciples for several more days.


27-33AD) Messiah ascends to heaven, takes scroll, begins breaking first 4 seals to loose that very judgment He predicted at the OD.


27-33AD) Holy Spirit is sent to John and disciples. Acts of apostle begins. The congregation grows but...

- In letters Apostles warn believers about false christs, and to earnestly contend for the original faith, and wolves in sheeps clothing. (1st horseman)

- Tensions increase between Rome and Judea (2nd horseman)

- Famines and pestilence begin to break out (3rd & 4th horsemen)

- Judgment begins at the house of God. So the four horsemen start at Jerusalem and then spread across the world...and are still here btw. These are spirits of judgment.


34-67AD) 5th seal is broken in heaven...

- Stephen is stoned on earth, other apostles are persecuted and eventually killed (beheadings, crucifixion, burning, etc). John is persecuted but remains alive.


70AD) 6th seal is broken in heaven...

- Rome surrounds and destroys Jerusalem & the temple. Many Judeans flee.

- Written testimony records earthquakes and astronomical signs, while men, women and children were murdered by Roman soldiers. No mercy given to who stayed.

- The 144,000 Israelites who will survive the coming judgment on the world are marked, while the winds of judgment of the days of great tribulation are held back by angels.

- On earth, gentile believers grow...these are they who come out of great tribulation with washed robes.


95AD) In exile on island of Patmos, John is given his visions by Messiah of things that happened, things that are (in his time), and things that will be.

- John writes down everything he saw and shares it with believers. The book of Revelation spreads.

- This is possibly when the 7th and final seal was actually broken...because there was silence in heaven for a short time. No praise heard. No further judgment sent to earth. No activity except Angel's preparing to blow their trumpets.

- On earth, conflict and persecution against the Jews stopped for several years and they were eventually allowed to return to (newly named) Palestine.

- ...but in time, their persecution would make a resurgence once Rome claims Christianity for itself. At the same time, riches and Salvation would spread through Rome (Romans 11).


Emperor Constantine-1945AD) Trumpet judgments blow...within which were days of great tribulation for the Jews.


1945AD-Today) Bowl/Vial Judgments pouring out...

-----

This very rough timeline is what I believe has happened and is currently happening.

Exactly! 100% true.

So then what we're seeing in Revelation 4 and the very beginning of Revelation 5 - when no one is found worthy - is a brief moment in heaven JUST BEFORE the Messiah ascends to heaven after finishing His work, in 27-33AD.

----

He was/is always the obedient Son, but only after He finished the work the Almighty gave was He worthy to sit on the Father's throne.

----

As soon as the Messiah appears in heaven in Revelation 5 everyone worships Him and celebrates. He immediately takes the scroll and begins to break its seals in Revelation 6.

So the breaking of the seals had to have begun sometime around 27-33AD when worthy Messiah returned to heaven. And since John was watching this vision unfold in the spirit in 95AD, this specific moment he witnessed of breaking the first seals was a flashback.

-----

Meanwhile, we have the benefit of having all of this information so we can put the pieces together. We're even told that just before Stephen was stoned heaven opened and he saw the Messiah standing at the right hand (Acts 7:56). Records date the stoning of Stephen at 34AD, so the Messiah was definitely in the throne room long before John was given his visions in 95AD.

Rough Timeline:
27-33AD) Messiah predicts judgment at OD. John and Apostles are listening.


27-33AD) Messiah dies, resurrects, and fellowships with John and disciples for several more days.


27-33AD) Messiah ascends to heaven, takes scroll, begins breaking first 4 seals to loose that very judgment He predicted at the OD.


27-33AD) Holy Spirit is sent to John and disciples. Acts of apostle begins. The congregation grows but...

- In letters Apostles warn believers about false christs, and to earnestly contend for the original faith, and wolves in sheeps clothing. (1st horseman)

- Tensions increase between Rome and Judea (2nd horseman)

- Famines and pestilence begin to break out (3rd & 4th horsemen)

- Judgment begins at the house of God. So the four horsemen start at Jerusalem and then spread across the world...and are still here btw. These are spirits of judgment.


34-67AD) 5th seal is broken in heaven...

- Stephen is stoned on earth, other apostles are persecuted and eventually killed (beheadings, crucifixion, burning, etc). John is persecuted but remains alive.


70AD) 6th seal is broken in heaven...

- Rome surrounds and destroys Jerusalem & the temple. Many Judeans flee.

- Written testimony records earthquakes and astronomical signs, while men, women and children were murdered by Roman soldiers. No mercy given to who stayed.

- The 144,000 Israelites who will survive the coming judgment on the world are marked, while the winds of judgment of the days of great tribulation are held back by angels.

- On earth, gentile believers grow...these are they who come out of great tribulation with washed robes.


95AD) In exile on island of Patmos, John is given his visions by Messiah of things that happened, things that are (in his time), and things that will be.

- John writes down everything he saw and shares it with believers. The book of Revelation spreads.

- This is possibly when the 7th and final seal was actually broken...because there was silence in heaven for a short time. No praise heard. No further judgment sent to earth. No activity except Angel's preparing to blow their trumpets.

- On earth, conflict and persecution against the Jews stopped for several years and they were eventually allowed to return to (newly named) Palestine.

- ...but in time, their persecution would make a resurgence once Rome claims Christianity for itself. At the same time, riches and Salvation would spread through Rome (Romans 11).


Emperor Constantine-1945AD) Trumpet judgments blow...within which were days of great tribulation for the Jews.


1945AD-Today) Bowl/Vial Judgments pouring out...

-----

This very rough timeline is what I believe has happened and is currently happening.

This could be true

However. the seals and bowls and everything are part of Gods wrath. Which has not began yet..

Nor are their any ressurected or raptured people who would be worshiping him as having saved and redeemed them. And returning their crowns they received at their reward ceremony in the throne-room

Jesus had to ascend immediately from the grave.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

An argument can be made that the Wrath has been here since Messiah ascended and loosed 4 seals. But believers have His hedge of protection around them...they are marked (Rev 7).

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

Colossians 3:5-6
5 Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry. 6 because of these, the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience.


The above letters were written 1st century. If we assume for a moment that my interpretation of what the seals are is accurate, notice that each of these things are already here and have been here for hundreds of years:

- Fake christs (from preachers to false religions)

- an abundance of wars

- rampant poverty

- obscene amount of diseases and pandemics

- believers persecuted and killed

- temple already destroyed

- persecution of the Jews who rejected Christ



If you mean in the throne rome in Revelation 4 & 5, recall that many rose with the Messiah when He resurrected and they were see by people.

During the ceremony of first fruits offering, the high priest was to offer a sampling of the future harvest to the Almighty. If we trust that the Messiah fulfilled the day of first fruits as perfectly as the other rituals, then it's safe to assume these resurrected people were taken to the throne and offered by the Messiah.

"Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father and your father."

If this is true. Gods wrath has been occuring since the flood

Again, Yes, the argument can be made. But you need to make more than an argument, You need to actually back tha argument up

Yes, they were seen, Just like Lazarus was seen. These people were not caught up with the lord. They rose and walked the earth again.

They did not recieve their glorified bodies or crowns. Nor were they in heaven.

Again, Circumstanial evidence is fine. But it ALL must add up

Indeed that was a wrath. The Almighty was angry and people died. What would you call it instead? The only difference is the world would be judged by fire the 2nd time.




Sufficiently.




It doesn't matter how sound math is, if one doesn't want to believe 2+2=4. The entire ritual of first fruit had to be fulfilled by "The First Fruit of the dead" on the day of first fruit (resurrection day).

Since we know Messiah fulfills all things perfectly, could you share with me what each element in that ritual represented in fulfillment if the ritual itself didn't represent the harvesting of people?