50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

There were no "imaginations" in my post. I don't have a clue what you're talking about?

Again, you said I was "allegorizing." You completely misunderstood--I take the future "mansion" seriously and literally. This is a false claim, that I'm allegorizing the mansion.

What I am saying is that I think you're confusing Jesus *preparing* a mansion for us with Jesus *building* a mansion for us. If you're quoting from John 14, he said he was *preparing* a place for us. And this took place at the cross, and is not something he's still doing.

That's false! The scriptures states that He was going to the Father's house to prepare actual places for us, which would be in heaven. This preparation would have taken place after He ascended to the right hand of the Father. And then He says that He is coming back to get us to take us back to those places so that we can be where He is.

Man! I cannot believe how much effort you put into distorting the truth! Just Unbelievable!

According to 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 there will be no literal flesh and blood people in the kingdom of God. This is how some people interpret the millennial kingdom to be a spiritual existence. That being said, it's hard to understand how there will be brick and mortar mansions for people.

1 Cor. 15:50-54
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

As I said, I don't pretend to know. I just believe that there will be a new earth, which will be, in my view, a make over of the present one, without any problems remaining. What that will be I don't know. But I do take God at His word.

The "flesh and blood" people you speak of, who will be disposed of, represent the carnal man, the "flesh" referring to the "sinful body." That will be disposed of in the resurrection because our old sinful bodies will be left behind, and we will be raised up in and transformed into new immortal, sinless bodies.

I can be fun thinking about this, when you really believe it, as I do. But we will have to admit we don't know squat about what will really be. I just believe it will be everything Jesus said it will be--not a bodiless existence, but rather, a *new* existence, fulfilling the present one in every way.

What you call "the truth" are peripheral issues that hardly merit arguing about! You must get concerned every morning about whether the sun will shine? If you get upset over whether your mansion will be made of brick or grass, you must live on the edge all the time?

We disagree. I don't believe it was talking about building, but about preparing. Simple disagreement, brother. Why get worked up over it?

Do you really get concerned over how one views God's ability to do things? He can build a mansion in a second, since indeed He created the universe with a word. Why should we get exasperated if someone thinks this got accomplished at the cross?

What is the bigger deal for you--what the mansion is made of and how long it took to build it, or the cross? As for me, I'll put my bet on the cross. That's where his love was shown for me. The mansion is 2nd best.

John 14:2-3 (HCSB)
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 If I go away and prepare a place for you, I will come back and receive you to Myself, so that where I am you may be also.

John 14:2 (ASV)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 (NJB)
2 In my Father's house there are many places to live in; otherwise I would have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you,


Now the story behind that Verse 2, is it is the TRADITIONAL Announcement the Bridegroom would say, after HIS choice of a BRIDE, drank from the PROPOSAL CUP. That is how she would say "YES", as the Bridegroom would pour a cup of wine and set it before the WOMAN HE want to marry, and wait for the answer. The night of the Last Supper, Jesus poured the CUP, set it before John, and each of the disciples also had drank from that same cup, after Judas had left.

That Verse 2 was the anouncement the Bridegroom made to HIS CHOICE of a Bride. They were then called Bridegroom and Bride from that moment on. It does not matter whether he actually said: dwelling places, or mansions, or places to live in. What matters is HE is announcing the wedding would be in HIS FATHER's HOUSE, after HE FINISHED BUILDING the new dwelling place for HIS BRIDE.

HE DID NOT KNOW WHEN THE WEDDING WOULD BE, and NEITHER DID THE ANGELS.

Matthew 24:36 (NJB)
36 But as for that day and hour, nobody knows it, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, no one but the Father alone.

WHY?

In a TRADITIONAL Jewish Wedding the Father had the right to periodically inspect the Building Project and when it was DONE to the specs to satisfy the FATHER, tell His SON, "GO get your BRIDE!"

Therefore I have to believe JESUS IS STILL BUILDING THE NEW DWELLING PLACE, or HE would have already have sent the ArchAngel to call us OUT to go to the WEDDING, in HIS Father's House.

I AGREE TOTALLY.

Sounds like you're interpreting the Bible by comparing it to a Jewish wedding? There is some value to this, perhaps, since Jesus was indeed a Jew, and was speaking to Jews. But the Father in heaven preparing a "mansion" for Jesus' Bride is quite different form a man preparing a house for his soon-to-be bride!

Again, it sounded to me like Jesus was speaking of "preparing" a place for us. He did this not by building an earthly house, but rather, by preparing for our legal rights to enter into it, when it is built.

There is no earthly building right now, nor is one being built. The house that presently exists for us is in heaven. But our place on earth has not yet been created. The New Earth will be created for us in the future, and is not presently being built, as I understand it.

But this is oh so speculative, brother. I have no sense as to why you're so emotionally vested in this, or why you would accuse me of "allegorizing" or "corrupting" God's word. I think you should be a little more flexible with others, in the interest of maintaining peace and brotherly kindness.

HE IS BORN AND RAISED A JEW.

HE CHOSE HIS BRIDE, EXACTLY LIKE THE JEWS TRADITIONALLY CHOSE WHO THEY WOULD MARRY.

HE WILL COMPLETE THE WEDDING TRADITIONS, exactly the way the Jews have done for 3000 years.

HE CALLED HIMSELF THE BRIDEGROOM.

IT IS TRADITION THAT HE BUILDS A NEW DWELLING PLACE IN HIS FATHER'S HOUSE.

Matthew 9:15 (NASB)
15 And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Matthew 25:1-13 (NASB)
1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
3 "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6 "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
7 "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "
Matthew 25:1-13 (NASB)
1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
3 "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6 "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
7 "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
8 "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9 "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
11 "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

In the Millennial Kingdom the LORD is KING over all the earth, and that will be a one world system of JEWISH STYLE OF WORSHIP.

And you say this on what authority?

1 Chron 29.1 The task is great, because this palatial structure is not for man but for the Lord God.

God created man in His own image--not the reverse. God does not have to do things man's way, and in fact He doesn't.

Hos 11.9 For I am God, and not a man—the Holy One among you.

Mark 10.27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

God may have used Jewish weddings as an illustration of what He's going to do for us. But to say, authoritatively, how God will build a mansion is well beyond your right to proclaim.

Your end time model left out a major ingredient.
The groom/bride dynamic.

The apex of The SON in relationship to man is the bride And groom.

IOW the very heart of end times focus from heaven is the bride and groom.

If you do not get that component framed into your doctrine you WILL NEVER understand the last supper dialogue.

Those words of Jesus were modelled after the jewish betrothal.
The prepare a place statement was what the groom told the bride. The return for the bride is what the father told the jewish groom...at some time after the room( mansion) was completed.

Mat 25 is that return for the bride TO THE MARRIAGE AND SUPPER IN HEAVEN.

Jesus said " i will not drink of the vine again till i drink it with you IN MY FATHERS KINGDOM"

The main ingrediant is left out of your doctrine.

You forget Jesus was/is a carpenter.
You can make that figurative .

If you read ruth the groom is jewish ..(boaz= Jesus) the rights to the land are Jewish as naomi is Jewish, and the bride is gentile ( ruth).

Ruth comes to know boaz through naomi. They both leave moab stripped of all but the clothes on their back.
Ruth seeks the God of the jews.
Naomi is kin to boaz.
Boaz seeks Ruth to wed but does so in such a way as to INCLUDE naomi.

It is the gentile bride with the Jewish heir side by side in a package deal.
The kinsman ahead of boaz refused to redeem due to the gentile componant of the contract....RUTH.
Ruth corrupted the deal from the kinsman's vantage point....she is gentile and " unclean"

It all points to Jesus and his gentile bride going to a new place. A jewish place to dwell together.

You should rethink all that rejection of the prism of heaven.

It is gross error.

Absolutely correct and I totally agree....

I don't need to re-think it. God is not a man that He should lie. God doesn't do things the way man does, particularly building homes! Yes, Jesus was a man and a carpenter. As a man he may have built homes man's way, or at least he could have. However, as God he would not be building temporary, earthly homes for us for all eternity in the human way. Perhaps you should think about that?

But some of this is really irrelevant to my main point, that the matter involves "preparation" and not actual "building." Jesus "prepared" for us to live in his home by going to the cross, and by legally paying our costs for us. It was about "preparation," and not "building." Just my opinion, brother.

None of this is left out of my doctrine. I just don't re-produce the Jewish wedding in earthly terms, like you do! God doesn't do things man's way. He doesn't build things like an earthly carpenter.

I fully get that this is about a wedding, and about preparing a residence. But the residence God prepares for us is 1st legally accomplished at the cross. The actual building is secure in heaven, but will be built on earth on the New Earth, which *has not happened yet!*

In my fathers house are many buildings.
I go to prepare a PLACE for you.

Yes you do need to rethink.

You are explaining away clear text for the sake of doctrine.

Time to rethink and reread.

I am glad i did not form my knowledge on church fathers.

That is such shaky ground.

^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

Christ is building a new dwelling placy in HEAVEN, is quite LITERALLY the TRUTH.




That, in my opinion, is the recipe for cooking up FALSE TEACHING IN THE CHURCH.

If this many people were telling you, that there are some serious biblical ERRORS in your theology,
wouldn't it be Logical to START TO LISTEN TO THEM and examine your theology ? ? ?

In my opinion, instead, you are stubborn enough to IGNORE them, and CLING to the interpretation that is in ERROR.

Psalm 81:12-13 (NCV)
12 So I let them go their stubborn way and follow their own advice.
13 I wish my people would listen to me; I wish Israel would live my way.

Proverbs 1:7 (ESV)
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

2 Timothy 2:14-18 (GWT)
14 Remind believers about these things, and warn them in the sight of God not to quarrel over words. Quarreling doesn't do any good but only destroys those who are listening.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as a tried-and-true worker who isn't ashamed to teach the word of truth correctly.
16 Avoid pointless discussions. People who {pay attention to these pointless discussions} will become more ungodly,
17 and what they say will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are like that.
18 They have abandoned the truth. . . .

2 Timothy 2:15 (NKJV)
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


1 Timothy 6:3-5 (NKJV)
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
to the doctrine which accords with godliness,
4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife,
reviling, evil suspicions,
5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
From such withdraw yourself.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 (HCSB)
18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies previously made about you, so that by them you may strongly engage in battle,
19 having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith.
20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them, and I have delivered them to Satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

1 Corinthians 16:21-22 (ASV)
21 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand.
22 If any man loveth not the Lord, let him be Anathema. Maranatha.

Galatians 1:8-9 (ASV)
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you,
let him be anathema.
9 As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received,
let him be anathema.

1 Timothy 1:3 (GWT)
3 When I was going to the province of Macedonia, I encouraged you to stay in the city of Ephesus.
That way you could order certain people to stop teaching false doctrine

Titus 3:9-10 (GWT)
9 Avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about Moses' Teachings.
This is useless and worthless.
10 Have nothing to do with people who continue to teach false doctrine after you have warned them once or twice.


1 Timothy 4:1 (NASB)
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


I do not find your theory of Religious Tolerance, to be TRUE.
Are you sure you have not fallen pray to a deceiving spirit ? ? ?

Yes, I'm sure. I'm interested in dealing with the subject by Scriptural evaluation. I'm not interested in your extra-curricular commentary.

No, there is nothing you provide for which to re-think. You just re-state the verse. If you have nothing more, I think we're finished.