TONGUES TODAY

I hear you. I understand your position. I agree with you 100%.

However.....the people on this thread will not accept your or my BIBLE scriptures and exegesis. They will reject what we say and show because they are going to do what they want to do no matter what God said.

Thank you for your imput!

It doesn't bother me at all - just merrily pointing out the mechanics, so to speak, of the modern phenomenon. The bottom line is very simple - there just isn't anything you're producing that cannot be explained in light of relatively simple linguistics.

If tongues-speech had a morphology, a grammar (even a rudimentary one), if it was relatively uniform amongst its speakers (as opposed to no two people ever having the same tongues-speech.....ever), I might be a bit more apt to think it was something divine in nature; but the modern phenomenon contains none of the above - it's just non-cognitive non-language utterance. The only thing making it 'real' to its speakers is their belief/faith.

As I've stated, I'm not doubting or questioning the 'tongues experience'; as mentioned, glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound. As one commenter put it, “Speaking in tongues distracts the ego/analytical/conscious mind while leaving the subconscious (the heart) wide open to import the divine." Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented. Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually any other culture that practices glossolalia.

Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia produced by a Shaman, a vodoun priestess, and a Christian tongues-speaker are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from.

Now because you have posted BIBLICAL truths which some here do not accept you have now been called by one of the posters here......

Quote............
"interesting that you have more in common with an unbeliever about what scripture states, than you do with Christians
the US is a mecca for pagans and demonic religions. your friend there, does practice some religion but will not state what it is".

I see by your avatar that you are a "SENIOR MEMBER".

Did YOU and do the moderators also know that you are a PAGAN, DEMONIC UNBELIEVER???????

And before anyone jumps and yells.....NO the poster did not say You were demonic and PAGAN, but but implied it by using a " , "(Comma) after the word Christian and kept right on with the sentence.

So......my question is, Did YOu know these things and now that you do what do you think?

I hear you. I understand your position. I agree with you 100%.

However.....the people on this thread will not accept your or my BIBLE scriptures and exegesis. They will reject what we say and show because they are going to do what they want to do no matter what God said.

Thank you for your imput!

Now because you have posted BIBLICAL truths which some here do not accept you have now been called by one of the posters here......

I am blessed to read the words from someone educated in Christian theology!

No, it is not valid. That is your opinion but it is not a Biblical one. The linguist doesn't validate the word of God no more than an atheist validates the non-existence of God. Yes the bible has the context of what is known as languages and the word Tongues Biblically in Hebrew and Greek has to be in context to the text, passage, sentence, paragraph, chapter, Book, and whole bible both Old and New Testament.

The word tongue means Biblically 1. the organ in your mouth 2. a language 3. or the language of a specific people i.e. Their Tongue. You are using Genesis 10:20 which speaks about the language of that person's ethnicity NOT of the Holy Spirt.

language is to an identity of a people as their native Tongue. I see in your scriptural reference you failed to speak on the word "Unknown". glōssa from 1cor 12:2

which is speaking of a language that was not known to the person speaking it.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

No man understands HIM the one speaking in the unknown tongue. I know this is hard for the carnal mind to comprehend as the word of God says it is. But that is that person's issue, not the Holy Spirits Gift.

The linguist did not have the ability to explain what God sid through Paul by the Holy Spirit

"for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

NO man understands him. Now I looked up that word NO in the greek in context to No man Understanding.
it doesn't say there is an exception for:

• linguist
• cessationists
• a scientific theory or opinion
• the misuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit by those who pervert them for money
• and finally, those who have been hurt by people who have misused them

None of those reasons or people change what is the gifts of the Holy Spirit being for today. Not one. You cherry-pick a verse where and there the full context of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is in the three chapters of 1cor 12 to 14 And Eph chapter 4 and mark 16 and Acts chapter one and two, and 6-7, 10, 11, 19

Not trying to get into an argument, but, I have discussed 1 Cor. 14:2 quite a bit in other threads as well as some of the things you bring up. Didn’t want to repeat myself here, but….

With respect to 1 Cor. 14:2 – The whole passage is talking about real, rational language.

Let me use an analogy - If I attend a worship service in “East Haystack”, some remote town in the US out in the middle of nowhere, two things are going to be evident: one; there’s only going to be so many people at that service (i.e. there will be a finite given amount of people there) and two; the chances that anyone speaks anything but English is pretty slim to nil.

If I start praying aloud in say Lithuanian, there’s no one at that service that’s going to understand a single word I’m saying. Even though I’m speaking a real language, no one there will understand my “tongue”. That does not mean or imply that no one else understands Lithuanian; just no one at that particular service.

In this sense, therefore, I am speaking only to God, since he understands all languages. To everyone at the service, even though I’m praying in the Spirit (as defined in my original post), to the people listening to me, I’m still speaking “mysteries” – i.e. even though I’m praying as I ought, no one understands me; no one has a clue what I’m saying as no one speaks my language.

When one looks at the original Greek, the verb which is usually translated as “understandeth/understands” is actually the verb “to hear” in the sense of to hear someone with understanding. The verb is not “to understand”. That part of the verse is more properly “no one hears [him] with understanding”, i.e. no one listening to him understands what he’s saying.

There is nothing in this passage that suggests modern tongues-speech nor is there anything that even remotely suggests that the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying. It is the listeners who do not understand, not the speaker – no matter how hard some people want the speaker to also not understand…….it just isn’t there.

I suppose it could be people conditioned in some cases, but it’s also just a reading of the text (and getting rid of the archaic ‘tongue’ for the more modern ‘language’).

“Putting words into Paul’s moth that he never said” I would argue is precisely what many tongues-speakers are doing. A reading into the text of things that are just not there.

“The notion that tongues has to always be an understandable language is a silly notion”

I think you’re partially right; it’s typically not understood by the listeners as they do not speak/understand the speaker’s language. Tongues may not be understandable to everyone hearing it, but at the very least, it has to be language, which modern tongues-speech is not. A good working definition of the modern phenomenon is non-cognitive non-language utterance.

“Also, I have provided absolutely true testimonies of people speaking in modern tongues languages they have never learned, and most of the time the language has been unknown to anyone, but once, even praying normally in tongues, the language changed to a language understood by a foreign visitor.”

These types of stories seem to abound in tongues-speaking circles, but unfortunately, they are all anecdotal at best. There are no documented cases of xenoglossy – anywhere. Thousands of examples of tongues-speech have been studied. Not one was ever found to be a real rational language, living or dead.

I should think that the tongues-speaker would, at the very least, want to know specifically what language s/he was supposedly speaking and would want to ask the person who heard him/her exactly what was said. Was it just a word, a phrase, a short monologue, what? Did the person’s tongues-speech switch over to the target language such that everyone listening could notice the switch, or was it just the one person who heard it in their language? Did that person hear the speaker physically speaking their language, or was it something that just sort of came into their head? Were these people living in the country where the language is spoken, or did it occur somewhere far removed (which would beg the question with some stories I’ve heard of how did a person from a remote part of the world come to be attending a Pentecostal/Charismatic service in the US?). I’m not doubting it could happen, but unfortunately, the specific details are recalled rather vaguely at best. Personally, this is an area I would love to see more study done on.

A very good humanistic argument to try to defeat another humanistic argument. A true student of Scripture has Biblical arguments to defend against secular facts. However in this case, the argument brought forward by a linguist are valid concerns.

No I didn't cherry pick Verses ignoring the other gifts but kept the discussion to "tongues" or languages.

You said:

language is to an identity of a people as their native Tongue. I see in your scriptural reference you failed to speak on the word "Unknown". glōssa from 1cor 12:2

which is speaking of a language that was not known to the person speaking it.

First let me say that the word "unknown" of 1 Cor. 14:2 (Not 12:2 - you might want to slow down a bit on your replies, these things are important), is not in the greek text. The word "unknown" was provided by the translators. In italics in the KJV. The term "unknown tongue" never is presented in the Greek text. As such the verse should look like this:

1Cor 14:2 For the one speaking in a tongue speaks not to men, but unto God: for no man is understanding; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.

Explanation of the above verse: So the one speaking in a heretofore language they have never spoken before, which is the gift of the Spirit, is not being understood by those who hear that one speaking because they do not speak this language. Only God understands because God understands all languages. The person speaking, is speaking the mysteries of the Gospel and praising God but edifies only him/herself. This would be understood like this: If a person was granted the gift of being able to speak German in an English speaking church, no one hearing that one would understand what he was saying. You need an interpreter fluent in German and can speak English, otherwise only the person speaking is being edified. This leads us into the subject of verse 3:

1Cor 14:3 But the one that prophesies (In this context the Greek word translated "prophesies", προφητεύω, means to speak forth the Word of God or to teach.), speaks to men for edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

And the explanation given for verse 2, above, is verified in verse 4.

1Cor 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies is edifying the church.

Secondly, I answered your charge in my first post as to how these languages were to be understood but I will repeat it:

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6 And when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

These verses of Scripture, are the clearest verses in Scripture, as to the understanding of Biblical languages.

The Galileans (v.7), were speaking a new language that they had not previously known, by the gift of the Spirit (v.4). These new languages were clearly recognized by the listeners (v.6&8). The miracle here... is not the nature or linguistics of the languages but rather, the source of these languages. The Holy Spirit. Non of the Galileans had any previous formal training in these languages.

These gifted languages, of the Spirit, are the languages of the men of this world. Not heavenly, higher than thou, languages made up in the mind of men. Scripture will not support this kind of twisting and folding of the Truth.

All this part of your religious conditioning in the way you were taught to interpret 1 Corinthians 14.

All this part of your religious conditioning in the way you were taught to interpret 1 Corinthians 14.

So you are saying that there are different ways to understand what is printed depending on what YOUR DENOMINATION has already taught you.

BINGO!

That is a correct statement

You see.......the truth is, we like what we know because we are comfortable with wat we know, EVEN if what we know is not what the BIBLE TELLS US!

You have just agreed with what I said about 23 pages ago!

I do not agree. I would say that the majority do not partake and bate that because they know when confronted with WAT THE BIBLE says they stand convicted and are then called to repent.

Are you un-aware that the dominate theme of tongues speakers is to promote what is termed the "health and wealth gospel." or as many say......"he Prosperity Gospel"! Please do not take my word on this. YOU do the work. YOU do the study.

What you will find, IF you will be honest with yourself is that This unbiblical teaching promises health and wealth to those who receive Christ. However, it is conditional on giving financially to support a church or ministry. It distorts the biblical teaching of "giving" into a "give to get" scheme, in which a person supposedly invests "seed money" with God who then gives materially to the giver. This false gospel has made multi-millionaires of many Charismatic and Pentecostal preachers. False teaching is used by most radio and TV "ministers" who cunningly deceive their audiences with their "get rich" or "healing" schemes and EVERY ONE OF THEM I KNOW OF SPEAKS IN TONGUES as the basis of their theology.

kavik is not a believer

That's interesting. Explains a lot.

Well, your experience is quite different to mine! I pray in tongues, yet I am totally opposed to the health and wealth gospel. My theology is strictly Reformed Puritan with its emphasis on Christ and Him crucified. And all my Pentecostal and Charismatic friends are opposed to the health and wealth gospel down here in New Zealand. In all of the years I have either been a member of a Pentecostal church or in subsequent years associated with a Charismatic prophetic ministry, I have never heard any teaching of the health and wealth gospel.

If you have read my posts on this and other forums, you will clearly see that I have loudly voiced my opposition to Kenny Copeland and his band of highway robbers. So, your generalised view that all tongues speakers are health and wealth pelicans is totally off beam. Yes, some AMERICAN charismatics are into that heretical preaching of another Jesus, but my friends and I down here in Upsidedown Land ain't!!!

So you are saying that there are different ways to understand what is printed depending on what YOUR DENOMINATION has already taught you.

BINGO!

That is a correct statement

You see.......the truth is, we like what we know because we are comfortable with wat we know, EVEN if what we know is not what the BIBLE TELLS US!

You have just agreed with what I said about 23 pages ago!

That's interesting. Explains a lot.