Sinful lust or normally functioning hormones?

yes you are right the Church of Christ needs a new approach to tackle the issue because there is order in God's works .. the Human has emotions and hormones which will play their purpose for your good continually,I am single in my 30s so you know i understand your plea. I believe an approach the church can apply is rather than to teach about those immoralities its better to preach immersely about identity in Christ helping the believer understand what it means to be set apart by God to be called Sons of God ,brethren finding ones identity and be firm in it will put away childish foolishness and if one falls?I would pick self up and DO BETTER NEXT TIME mindset ( repent). be careful a believer should not dwell in transgress. Jesus does not condemn the man who picks up his cross to follow him its written.. when you are married you will enjoy sex in its wholeness righteously .stay a blessing

Pick yourself up and resolve to do better next time isn't really the idea of repentance - repentance is more about changing how you view something so that you change your approach to it and would closely be tied in with the renewing of your mind. It's changing your mind from sex is this wonderful thing that God is keeping from me because I'm single to sex is this powerful and potentially dangerous thing that God is asking me to wait for so that I avoid having the whole thing blow up in my face and severely damage me.

When you are married is a rather empty promise for those who see little or no prospect of getting married. And as stated earlier in this thread, it's pretty ridiculous to think that anyone is going to be able to mentally and emotionally make the transition from taboo to terrific best thing ever overnight. I think quite a few of my generation have found that the church teaching them don't have sex for so long has actually made it more difficult to enjoy sex because they have all those don't voices in their heads even after they get married and it's ok (and not just ok but your duty, no pressure) now.

Thank you for your response . when i say "BETTER" this is what i mean , for the believer to choose God's judgement next time the individual is at the same crossroad whatever the challenge may be not just sex. i refer to it also as BETTER because the present fall is believers walk to perfection (not falling prey to LUST). remember its written the righteous fall also.. they dont become unrighteous for falling.. HERE's and illustration a gold coin in a mud . its still gold .. that's what likens to the "believers walk to perfection" in the hands of the holy spirit . according to your understanding , whats the role of the holy spirit??i hope you dont mind me asking .. all love

And the beat goes on...
And the beat goes on...

Great track

Hi Hungry,

I'm not writing this post as an argument, but rather to ask if you have seen how people justify oral sex and masturbation as somehow staying pure -- I understand and have seen many times when people have stated that there are no explicit statements in the Bible prohibiting either of these things, and as you posted, I've seen people say that anyone, married or not, can participate in them according to their conscience.

In Jesus' well-known statement, He says, "But I tell you, anyone who looks a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart," -- Matthew 5:28.

Jesus was obviously talking about what goes on in the heart even before it was committed with the body. I was just wondering, have you seen people justify their thoughts (what was going on in their heart) before, during, and after they committed acts of "self-service", and/or oral sex? What did they say they were thinking about when contemplating or doing such things?

This is the part I've always been curious about. How many people can masturbate and/or take part in oral sex while thinking purely thoughts? I mean, what are they thinking about that turns them on in order to participate in such acts to begin with?

Are there REALLY people out there who can experience acts of sexual tension and release while thinking about, I don't even know -- filing papers? Raking leaves? Doing laundry? Serving food at the homeless shelter? I would argue that all of these things would technically be "pure thoughts," but how many people are thinking these things while engaging in sexual actions? I'm guessing that in order to "be in the mood" to do something clearly sexual, one has to be thinking purely sexual thoughts. What sexual thoughts would be seen as holy to dwell on (enough to get them from start to finish) for someone unmarried?

If Jesus is just as concerned with the state of our thoughts as with what we do with our bodies, how can this be argued as allowable?

I am NOT criticizing your post or stance in any way. I'm just wondering what your opinion is -- whether or not people can perform sexual acts that "don't count strictly as 'normal' sex" -- while dwelling upon thoughts that are holy and pleasing to God.

I'm just curious as to whether or not people think this is possible -- and maybe it is, which is exactly what I'm asking -- HOW is it possible?

Believe me, I've heard just about every "way around the rules" or how to "tiptoe right up to the line" as can be. NO ONE argues, "How much can I get away with?" more than a group of hormone-laden Lutheran high schoolers.

For example, one boy in my class raised his hand and argued with the pastor that you can fantasize about someone any way you want, as long as you fantasize that you're married to the person while doing whatever your mind is thinking of doing.

Just because someone gets married, it doesn’t mean they are enjoying a terrific sex life. I would take celibacy to marriage any day. A Christian woman, who is emotionally stable, who has energy left at the end of the day (or even in the middle of the day), who cares enough about her husband’s sexual needs (much less desires), to satisfy him is spotted less often than Bigfoot. Even if that is the case when you first marry, I guarantee it doesn’t perpetuate through motherhood and menopause. So you might have a few good times to reminisce about before the softer years. Then until death do you part are you driving each other nuts. Come mid life crisis and post maternal psychopathy, and sexless marriage, together until death. Fool me once...I will never marry again. Sex just isn’t worth it.

THANK YOU for this raw, honest post.

Singles are told over and over again, "It is better to marry than to burn with passion," which I understand is directly from the Bible (1 Corinthians 7:9,) but I NEVER, EVER hear the people doling out this advice telling singles that even if you do get married in order to "do something about that burning," a myriad of life circumstances might mean ending up in an even worse situation.

Like a sexless marriage that allows for no release, and no way out of it, because you are married. But so many Christians seem to make it sound like all you have to do is get married, and all your sexual wishes will be granted by the magical Christian spouse. No one talks about how so many Christian couples are realistically very unhappy in this area of their lives.

My own conclusion (just for myself, not anyone else) is that we somehow have to ask God us to prepare to live a life without sex, no matter what our marital status is or might become, because even in marriage, access or availability can be gone in a heartbeat.

At least when you're single, there is a hope that someday things might change.

If you're married, where you're at is what you get until someone in the marriage dies, and it just might be you.

So much suffering

The popular quote that every one likes to think Jesus said (Matthew 5:28) is erroneously translated. Do you agree that Christ making that assertion seems extreme? In verse 27 He prefaces, that it was written not to commit adultery, then hits them with verse 28. The word used for “woman” is often translated “wife”. Jesus said if you look upon a wife (not your own) lustfully, then you commit adultery in your heart. Given that context, it actually makes sense. Men were allowed many wives. I assume they would amass them based on lust. It was not adulterous to be lustful regarding unpromised virgins, just other men’s wives.

As far as fantasizing for self pleasure, women went nuts for “50 Shades of Grey”. There wasn’t a real dude, or even an image of a real dude. It’s not like it was somebody’s husband, therefore not adulterous. Stories and fantasies can be imagined yet stimulating provided you aren’t fantasizing about stealing someone’s husband...scandalous!

Disclaimer: This was not a recommendation for 50 Shades of Grey. Just the surprising response by women makes me wonder how greatly men miss the mark when thinking what a woman wants. Eye opening!

I have to politely disagree.

I was taught that just because men had multiple wives, doesn't mean God condoned or endorsed it.

But I appreciate you explaining your stance.

And of course I agree that both men and women fall to lustful fantasies -- whether or not they are right with God over them in their own hearts is, I suppose, a personal matter.

Seeing as we are told numerous times in the Bible to keep our thoughts pure, I have to believe that imagining those who are not our spouses in sexual situations would not be considered "pure," but maybe I'm just old-fashioned (it won't change my mind personally though, as I feel this is how God personally convicts me, and I'm not trying to speak for anyone else, just trying to understand their reasoning.)

I too am “master of my domain (Seinfeld)”. I keep my thoughts pure but I understand not everyone can do that. I have no doubts whatsoever that Jesus referred to wife and not woman when issuing an offence punishable by death. Following that He said if your eyes make you sin, pluck them out. Honestly, under that scrutiny, no seeing man would be left. It just doesn’t make sense otherwise. You are welcome to believe it says woman if you want, but I politely disagree.

If God didn’t condone multiple wives, why did He bless a nation consisting of tribes of children from one father with two wives and two mistresses?

Wanting to be extremely wary about the ways we justify our own sin or flirting with the lines, I think most people make distinctions. Is fantasizing about the celebrity you'll never meet as bad as fantasizing about a co-worker? Certainly you'll have much more opportunity to act on your fantasies with the co-worker and that could more easily lead to worse? Are written and video porn (and I think we've mentioned before on this forum about most romance novels are basically emotional porn for women) equally bad? If you have no one in particular in mind while self servicing is that better or worse than having an actual object of your "affection"? What if you decide to keep a fictional character in mind? And then there are the stereotypical inflatable dolls or high tech companion robots?

And after asking all those questions, it certainly is clear that if we start subdividing the issue, it gets really murky really quickly. This might be part of the reason why church teaching so often draws the line so restrictive because we don't know for sure where that line is and so like the pharisees and scribes of their day, we draw the borders so wide that we know we have no chance of accidentally sinning (and then find all the little loopholes to gratify the sinful nature).

I've heard a few sermons about God's actual will vs. His permissible will, and that multiple wives and concubines fit under what God permitted, but it was neither something God established nor something He wanted.

One of the reasons given for "accepting" multiple wives (hypothetically) is because women had no means of supporting themselves in those times and would therefore have less or little chance of survival if they didn't marry.

In answer to your question, "If God didn't condone multiple wives, why did God bless a nation consisting of tribes of children from one father father with two wives and two mistresses?"

For the same reasons He blessed murderers (Moses, David,) prostitutes (Rahab,) and those who denied even knowing Him (Peter.) God blesses those who believe in Him and whom He chooses to bless, despite the wrongdoings they commit. It does not mean at all that God condones the things they did wrong. And if God waited for someone perfect to bless, He'd still be waiting.

I've heard many people say that God must approve of multiple wives because He allows the "giants" of faith to have them (Israel, Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon, etc.) but God blessings do not equal His endorsement of their behavior. And if anyone wants to marry someone who already has and will obtain several other spouses (and if it's legal where they live,) who am I to stop them?

This again is one of those things that many Christians disagree on, and something I believe we won't know the answer to until we are able to ask God ourselves.

I know we can ask him now, but as with many Biblical arguments Christians hold today, some will say God "told them" this, while the other half will claim God "told them" the exact opposite.

And a passage I came across in a personal Bible story, Deuteronomy 17:17 -- "The king is NOT to have many wives, because this would turn away his heart from the Lord," makes me hold to my own personal belief that God neither wanted nor fully condoned these men having multiple spouses.

But of course, others are free to believe what they understand from their own studies.

sounds complicated, though I dont know why people are looking at church for their sex education.

I dont think it does any.

You wont get much in schools either, or it will vary.
most people do not get from their parents either, whos actual responsiblity is to tell them about the birda and the bees.


I have books in the library about it (not porn)
One book is called 'How did I begin' its a picture book. I think another book is called 'How was I made' and its a christian based one. No, it does not say babies are born in cabbage patches or come from a stork or other such nonsense.

Some books about animals have about reproduction, an of course plant books about propogatiom, talking about seeds, pollination, flowers etc.

And yes, birds and bees, You would think that around easter time, the conversation might be about eggs and fertility, but people dont seem to make any connection to that.

The born again experience and being sanctified, however, is the most important experience a christian can have, even over sex and childbirth. Its similar but its something HOLY that takes place inside you. Its not something driven by hormones or lust.

There is actually a reason why Jesus was born of a virgin and wasnt produced by sexual means.

Something else I wanted to add to the thoughts above but ran out of time for the edit...

Since my early 20's, I've tried to read the Bible from cover to cover on a regular basis. When I get done with one version, I pick up another because I'm hoping it will help me pick up on any "gaps" between translations that I missed before.

This time around, I've been trying to do regular reading for a year but have so far only made it to the middle of Jeremiah -- but this means that I've spent an entire year in an "Old Testament" mentality, because aside from church services and devotionals, all I've been reading is the Old Testament.

One thing that has stood out to me time and time again is that God very rarely blesses because He is pleased with someone's behavior. Yes, it happens, but it certainly seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Time and time again as the Israelites made it to the Promised Land and then went through a plethora of kings deemed so evil that barely more than their names were recorded, God is in the equivalent of an abusive relationship -- with His people being the abusers.

The chapters I have gotten through are a vicious cycle of God reprimanding His people for their disobedience, then drawing them back, then suffering the same old humiliation time and time again as they depend on everyone and everything but Him -- which God equates to adultery. At one time, He even says that he was divorcing them:

"But you have played the harlot with many lovers, yet you return to Me," says the Lord (Jeremiah 3:1,) even going on to say, "Where have you not lain with men?" And for the most graphic description of all (so much so that I won't rewrite it here,) there is always the story of the idolatrous sisters in Ezekiel 23.

In Jeremiah 3:8, God has had enough: " Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce."

But yet in verse 14, God can't give up His beloved: " Return, O backsliding children, for I am married to you. I will give you shepherds according to My hear, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding."

My point is, God rarely blesses people because they have done what He says or because He is pleased with (or condones) their behavior.

God blesses, simply, because He is God. Over and over again, God says that He blesses His people because of HIMSELF, not because of people's actions or obedience lining up with His will. Sometimes when God promised to do something, He swore on His own name because there is nothing higher to swear upon. So God kept His promise because He had made the highest oath possible that He would, regardless of human choice.

God also says many times Himself that the reason He is fulfilling His blessings and promises is because that's who He is -- His very nature is to fulfill His word, as He cannot lie -- and He is doing so for His own sake (keeping inline with His own Self,) rather than the actions of human beings (which are most often disobedient to Him.)

I think this gets down to the heart of the issue. It's a heart issue. Impure thoughts come from the heart, we desire to as one writer put it:

"experience the intimate pleasures reserved for the marriage apart from this sacred institution. Therefore, it pursues enjoyment apart from and in contrast to God’s clearly revealed will. When a man sits and quietly fixes his eyes and heart upon a woman (whether it be on a computer, television, photo, in person, or in his imagination) and then begins to desire her sexually, this is sinful lust. The man has lustfully craved sexual satisfaction apart from what God has called good." (TGC it's a good article).

Jesus is very concerned with the thoughts people have, even if you hate someone in your heart that counts as murder, even though you havent shed any blood.

Because our thoughts do determine our actions.

This is why we renew our minds and take every thought captive to Christ.

now if you have a problem, lets say you always think about your ex and imagine yourself having sex with him. well thats not going to be good for your health! Cos maybe he doesnt want to have it with you. Sex isnt a one way street. I am pretty sure it requires two people. Then also sex does lead to babies (fact of life for most) now are you prepared to look after that child.

When God first destroyed mankind with a flood, it wasnt primarily because of all the violent and bloodshed, it was because peoples thoughts and imaginations of their HEARTS were of evil continually.

This is exactly why I have to question it when people say masturbation, oral, and non-"regular" sexual acts (the kind that won't result in pregnancy) are acceptable for unmarried people.

So let's say Brother X has a bit of a moment "to himself..." What, exactly, puts it into his mind to do so? I'm guessing it's not a copy of Better Homes & Gardens, unless he someone has a real affection for plants.

Or what if Brother Y and Sister Z decided to participate in some of these acts that aren't explicitly forbidden by any particular Bible passage? I would assume they are acting out their thoughts -- so what exactly, got them to a place of having such thoughts?


If we could zero in on Brother X, Brother Y, and Sister Z's thoughts right before, and especially right during the moment, what would we find? Would they be perfectly ok with it if their thoughts could be projected onto a screen for everyone to see in that moment? Would it cause them any sort of shame or embarrassment, most especially knowing that God would see and judge what they were thinking?

Would we find out that, yes indeed, people really ARE thinking about wholesome things like cleaning their bathrooms, shopping for organic produce, and helping that little old lady across the street -- all while engaging in explicit sexual acts that arouse, stimulate, and satisfy their bodies?

Shoot, if that's possible, I'm pretty sure everyone here would sign right up.

But until someone can convince me that people who are masturbating and having oral sex are thinking about Bible reading and missions work while concluding the purposes of their actions, I have to stand by being convicted that it can't be a part of "staying pure" if it is neither preceded by nor concluded with thoughts of purity.

Again, however, these are only MY convictions, and I am certainly not trying to put them on anyone else. Rather, I'm just trying to share an alternative point of view to what was presented.