Who was Jesus praying to in the garden of Gethsemane?

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

God knows your heart. But, the doctrine you have been publishing is not christian see my other posts.

A serious error in your post is the so-called 44,000 denominations it is based on a very faulty source.

It is based on World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press).

The author has a very loose definition of denomination.

"'Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.' (Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)

...

Roman Catholics (242)

"
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

This faulty sources says in effect that there are 242 separate Catholic denominations. We know that there is only one Catholic denomination. It is counting the catholic church in 238 counties as separate denominations. I do not know how it adds 4 more to get 242.

Please start a new thread about what is a Christian.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

PC123 said:

You have been displaying another Jesus a false one, not of the Bible.

What you need to be concerned with my friend is getting to know the real Jesus and we all can help you with that.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

PC123 said:

Those who put up that strawman, come from a false teaching known as Sabellianism which the early church condemned as false. Today they claim to be Apostolic, Modalism, Jesus Only or Oneness. They try to claim there is controversy where there is none. They are lying plain and simple. Muslims also borrow that strawman to use.
https://nortonsafe.search.ask.com/w...ial+doctrine"&tpr=10&page=2&ots=1621111018694

Yes, I see that old straw man as laughable. Among Orthodox Christians there is no such controversy. Among false believers and false religions they listen to false teacher to come up with such nonsense.

May I suggest you borrow some systematic theologies from the Library?

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

I already posted a link to the Biblical Outline of the Trinity by Bowman. You may want to take the time to study it.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

john832 said:

James 2:26 defines death as separation of body and spirit or soul, forget which. The son of God in spirit lived on. It was the body of Jesus that died.

James 2:26
King James Version
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Romans 5:17
Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

His sacrifice applies to all that come to him because he was fully God and fully Man. As such he is our advocate to the Father.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Where was the spirit of Jesus after death?

right here,

1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Going deeper into the greek and church fathers we learn that Jesus announced the victory to the OT Saints.
They rose from the dead and on his Ascension lead them to Heaven where paradise was moved to.
Paul was later caught up to paradise. Before that the paradise side of the grave was in the lower parts of the earth.

Jocund · May 15, 2021

TheLearner said:

Thank you for taking the time to share that link. It is a great resource. There are contrary interpretations to many passages outlined the article (the article even does a great job of addressing these). I'm still hesitant to say that the Trinity is scripturally justified to the exclusion of non-Trinitarian views. It still seems faith based (something that speaks from within) as opposed to something that is found. Who am I to say with certainty about those things that can't be seen? If someone has Christ in their heart, regardless of whether they are Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian, who are we to judge them for a potential inaccuracy in their understanding of the relationship between Father and Son? This might be a different story if they start to contradict explicit scripture.

TheLearner said:

Which church? Whose interpretation? Why this route as opposed to Sola Scriptura?

Jocund · May 15, 2021

TheLearner said:

The LDS Mormon Trinity is not the same as the Christian Trinity.

From my reading of LDS literature they teach that the godhead consists of three distinct gods in harmony.

"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2).

....

On June 16, 1844, in his last Sunday sermon before his martyrdom, Joseph Smith declared that "in all congregations" he had taught "the plurality of Gods" for fifteen years: "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (TPJS, p. 370).

...

Although the three members of the Godhead are distinct personages, their Godhead is "one" in that all three are united in their thoughts, actions, and purpose, with each having a fulness of knowledge, truth, and power. Each is a God. This does not imply a mystical union of substance or personality. Joseph Smith taught: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow-three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow.

...

Each member of the Godhead fulfills particular functions in relation to each of the others and to mankind. God the Father presides over the Godhead. He is the Father of all human spirits and of the physical body of Jesus Christ. The human body was formed in his image.

...

The LDS doctrine of the Godhead differs from the various concepts of the Trinity."

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead

byu stands for Brigham Young University

Please do not equate the Christian concept of the Trinity with the false LDS Trinity.

"Latterday Saints (Mormons) believe that Jesus Christ is a supreme being / first creation. Other denominations believe in the Trinity doctrine."

To clarify, I was referencing LDS as an example of non-Trinitarian.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

PC123 said:

Friend try reading the early church fathers.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2904.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0606.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3302.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0511.htm

Mystery in Catholic Theology simply means something that was hidden is now revealed. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm#IV

the First Council of Nicaea https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

"We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father, that is, of the substance [ek tes ousias] of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of the same substance with the Father [homoousion to patri], through whom all things were made both in heaven and on earth; who for us men and our salvation descended, was incarnate, and was made man, suffered and rose again the third day, ascended into heaven and cometh to judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost. Those who say: There was a time when He was not, and He was not before He was begotten; and that He was made out of nothing (ex ouk onton); or who maintain that He is of another hypostasis or another substance [than the Father], or that the Son of God is created, or mutable, or subject to change, [them] the Catholic Church anathematizes. "

First Council of Constantinople https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308a.htm

Tertullian coined the word Trinity.

As you read, pick out the useful meat and spit out the bones.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Other text may be worth reading are:

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm

Mem said:

Warning: tangent may be ahead

The exact conundrum generated in the premise of this question just came to me, and I apologize if others might've touched on it at one point or another, and that is that being asked is "a simple question" in seeking the face of an ultra-complex multi-faceted being. After all, considering the complexity of each one of use, who are merely images of God, and the nature of the original language's meaning of 'face' is actually in the plural form 'faces,' and how we are the same as yesterday yet not what we were... and our existential construct of individuals in the totality of a community, even individuals that the (rest of the) community might like to ignore or would rather 'cancel,' ...I am rather hesitant to withdraw individual recognition from any person knowing their affect upon the whole is ineludible (yep, I had to look that up), let alone doing so with regard to God's personage(s?).

Hence, my apprehension at accepting modalism as Matt4 explains it... On the other hand, I had also been apprehensive in the risk of affronting God's identity by ascribing godly status to any other than and thereby making idols is my own image... and so, taking with me this dilemma, naked so to speak before God, I asked if it were to either offend or please Him whether I would ascribe deity to and consider Jesus (that I'd heard and knew of) God. And, upon asking, the answer came in the form of the spirit of peace and joy...and fear and reverence...

Jesus, "Who, existing in the form of God, 'did not consider it robbery' to be equal to God, but emptied Himself taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.." This was Jesus, the Son, making himself as lowly, or rather expressing is humble (nature of His) being, rather than Father making Himself the Son, as I see it, although it is true that He begets to the Father in a different relationship whereas Father receives us in Him as His bride...

You need to simply your question. I am not making any sense of what you are getting at.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Jocund said:

sorry I did not get that. I am recovering from knee replacement. Oxy something is ahhh.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

MattforJesus said:

It seems that the Protestants did not protest enough for they held unto the trinity.

When the Bible says one God it means one God.

There is one God who is a Holy Spirit which the Spirit moved in creation, and Jesus was conceived by the Spirit, and the Spirit dwells in the saints, and Father is a title, and the Son is the man Christ Jesus.

The Bible says there is only one God the Father who is above all, and through all, and in you all, for He is an omnipresent Spirit.

Jesus is God for He is God manifest in the flesh, and He is from everlasting, and He dwells in the light which no person can approach unto, and no person has see Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus because He is an invisible Spirit but He showed us a visible manifestation of Himself.

And He cannot be a created God for God said there was no God formed before Him and there will be no God formed after Him.

Also there is no such thing as a created God for God means supreme being and a created God would be made of physical matter which is inferior to God's substance as a Spirit, and even the angels are made of physical matter although they are considered spiritual for God made nothing with His Spirit substance.

But this throws people off how Jesus can be God for how can God fit in a human body when He is an omnipresent Spirit.

When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh it means that He manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus for He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and it pleased the Father that in Him all fulness should dwell, and He has the Spirit without measure.

And the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God for God cannot be separated.

Which the man Christ Jesus does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him for there cannot be a double portion of the Spirit in one place and an empty space where the Spirit is not at but Jesus moves through the Spirit and wherever He is at the Spirit is there.

The same as the saints that they walk through the Spirit.

The Spirit does not have to move for the Spirit is already there.

Which makes it easy to understand how Jesus can be God when He is showing a visible manifestation of Himself.

Jesus is like the saints according to being in the flesh except He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily where the saints have partial attributes.

The Bible says that the Son was made according to the flesh of the seed of David, and when the time was come God sent forth His Son made of a woman, made under the law.

The Son is the man Christ Jesus and there is no God the Son, which the Son is the personal human body of God which He laid down His life for the saints and purchased the Church with His own blood.

And God reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony, and everyone that has the Spirit working in their life after being saved is God and person in harmony.

That is why they cannot understand it and say it is a mystery for there is only one God the Father and no trinity.

Jesus is the Father according to Him being God for there is only one God the Father, and He is the Son according to His humanity like a person has the Spirit but they are human.

That is why Jesus said if you have seen Him then you have seen the Father, and the words that He speaks are not His own, but the Father that dwells in Him He does the works.

Jesus is the visible relationship to the saints forever for the man Christ Jesus has a glorified body the same as the saints will have a glorified body which is why the man Christ Jesus prayed to the Father for the saints to have the same glory as Him and behold His glory which is the saints receiving eternal life and a glorified body like the man Christ Jesus, and seeing Him on the throne in heaven which is the throne of God and the Lamb, God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

They do not understand what right hand means for the only person we will see in heaven is Jesus.

friend here is the biblical outline on the trinity for you https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Mem said:

Warning: tangent may be ahead

The exact conundrum generated in the premise of this question just came to me, and I apologize if others might've touched on it at one point or another, and that is that being asked is "a simple question" in seeking the face of an ultra-complex multi-faceted being. After all, considering the complexity of each one of use, who are merely images of God, and the nature of the original language's meaning of 'face' is actually in the plural form 'faces,' and how we are the same as yesterday yet not what we were... and our existential construct of individuals in the totality of a community, even individuals that the (rest of the) community might like to ignore or would rather 'cancel,' ...I am rather hesitant to withdraw individual recognition from any person knowing their affect upon the whole is ineludible (yep, I had to look that up), let alone doing so with regard to God's personage(s?).

Hence, my apprehension at accepting modalism as Matt4 explains it... On the other hand, I had also been apprehensive in the risk of affronting God's identity by ascribing godly status to any other than and thereby making idols is my own image... and so, taking with me this dilemma, naked so to speak before God, I asked if it were to either offend or please Him whether I would ascribe deity to and consider Jesus (that I'd heard and knew of) God. And, upon asking, the answer came in the form of the spirit of peace and joy...and fear and reverence...

Jesus, "Who, existing in the form of God, 'did not consider it robbery' to be equal to God, but emptied Himself taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness.." This was Jesus, the Son, making himself as lowly, or rather expressing is humble (nature of His) being, rather than Father making Himself the Son, as I see it, although it is true that He begets to the Father in a different relationship whereas Father receives us in Him as His bride...

Please start a new thread for tangents.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

CS1 said:

I was contrasting the strawman math of 1 + 1 + 1 to (1 x 1 x1 and any number raised to the power of zero. ) Those who are like Arians use addition whereas those with a better understand uses higher math.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Jocund said:

I already posted a biblical outline on the trinity. Doctrine was developed in history via means of councils and early church writers. When we divorce ourselves from that we have no means to prove whose interpretation was closest to what the early church believed. After all the early church leaders and writers where taught by the apostles. We are free to eat the meat and spit out the bones.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Jocund said:

Many of the non-Trinitarian views were condemned as heresies by church councils.
Protestants do recognize the first councils as authoritative.
Many arguments against Sola Scriptura ignores the other Sola's. One must Start with the Sola about Christ first.
History and church fathers are used to identify correct interpretations.
It was those same fathers who made copies of the books in the NT for us today --- The earliest ones were taught by the apostles themselves.
Like the OT was written for us to learn from, there is no reason not to learn from Christians closer to the NT period.
The Scriptures were not written in a vacuum. yes, we do look for something that is inconsistent.
spiting out the bones and keeping the good meat.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

This is good discussion all. Off topic rabbit paths please start a new thread on that.

TheLearner · May 15, 2021

Jocund said:

I only pointed out that LDS example is three gods and does not in anyway fit the doctrine of the trinity. In fact, LDS doctrine teaches that Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan.

justahumanbeing · May 15, 2021

If you are in a spirit of doubt, cast that spirit away in the name of Jesus and believe that He is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. That's who He is and that's how He reveals Himself throughout the Bible and especially the New Testament. You don't seem to have too much of a problem accepting that you don't know everything.

From the beginning, God has always been mysterious. Although, you're a Christian, a part of you is still holding on to rationality. You'll have your questions. Jesus always said that in order to follow Him and be redeemed by Him, You need to have child like faith.

Luke 18:17 - Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

That's all you need. Set aside you doubts and believe in God without your questions so that you live a complete life as a follower of Christ, blessed with every blessing God promises His children both in this life and the life after this life. Eternal life. If God says He is three persons in one God, why would you question that? Are you still an Atheist? Are you still a rationalist? See, God has brought you into a life of faith and brought you back to Him. You asking these questions and carrying these doubts within you is you taking a step back from faith and belief in Jesus. Why would you doubt when He has brought you back? Why would you doubt when you already believe?

And He clearly puts it in the Bible, "Unless you believe in me like a child does, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven." If you realise what's at stake when you don't believe, I think you would begin to believe. What is important is that God is there for you. Your sins have been forgiven. God offers you a new life in Him and does not judge you for who you were or who you are as long as you believe in Him and that He died for your sins and that He is the way to enter Heaven. He is the way out of all your troubles on earth as well. There is power in Jesus' name. Forget the rest of the world and everyone in it. Jesus loves you and He is your redeemer. That's all that matters. Don't doubt. Just believe in Jesus without doubting Him. God bless you.

Mem · May 15, 2021

TheLearner said:

I have trouble following my train of thought also.

Who was Jesus praying to in the garden of Gethsemane?

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