50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Quote from your post #1906

"there's also "the ends [PLURAL] of the ages [PLURAL]" in 1Cor10:11"

I think the KJV translators did this verse more justice by using "world" rather than "ages" because it fits the context more accurately. It's plural because 23,000 peoples' world ended which fits the context. The usage of "ages" makes it sound like 23,000 ages passed or were fulfilled.

I don't think we're splitting hairs here because this actually matters. The reason it matters is because the version your using has an entirely different nuance to the KJV. The reader will draw two vastly different conclusions depending on which text is used to interpret these verses.

Matt. 24. states Jesus speaking "after the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners of heaven"

Isn't that a simple plain statement? "after the tribulation"

Folks go on about the beast who is Antichrist forcing everyone to take his mark, how can this happen after Jesus returns? Antichrist is slain when the Lord returns.

Therefore the mark of the beast comes before the rapture, it is this persecution of those who refuse his mark which is the great tribulation.

No, it is speaking of (for the most part) BEFORE TRIBULATION.


Matthew 24:4-16 (HCSB)
4 Then Jesus replied to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many.
6 You are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, because these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these events are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 Then many will take offense, betray one another and hate one another.
11 Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
12 Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be delivered.
14 This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations. And then the end will come.
*15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),
16 “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!


I am happy to discuss this with you, because I think it is important that WE can be an example of How we can discuss subjects, like the Rapture, without getting angry, or damaging our Friendship. I do not expect you to come to my side of the issue, nor will I ever go to your side of the issue. But I do expect both of us will explain our side of the issue, as best as we can.

I thank GOD that HE chose to clarify the MID-POINT of 7 year Peace Treaty, to give us a reference POINT, where the *Asterix is. Everything after that POINT GETS FAR WORSE, and Everything before that Point is NOT AS BAD AS IT IS GOING TO BE.

I think it is important to point out that JESUS is speaking to Two different Groups of People, The last of the O.T. Assembly, and soon to be the N.T. Assembly. JESUS never did use that WORD CHRISTIAN, HE called us:

Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

That is exactly what HE called us, and you can look that up, and take to the Bank. That is same expression as HE chose to call True Believers of the O.T. Because of that expression, and MAL. 3:6, I believe they were saved the Same was as all of us were.

O.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD would send the MESSIAH to Pay for their Sins.
N.T. Assembly = those who believed GOD did send the Messiah to Pay for our Sins.

That is called the Faith of Abraham.

Christian was added to the BIBLE after Paul witnessed to them in Antioch, and not before.

Acts 11:26 (HCSB)
26 and when he found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch.

So we see in Mat. 24:4-16, the end is not yet, but that could be the Beginning of Tribulation. No, I am not going to predict the RAPTURE, No one knows the DATE, But it Has to be between that Date and Rev. 6:14, because of these VERSES.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (ESV)
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 4:3 (ESV)
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 6:16-17 (ESV)
16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”


The Antichrist's Executions are still Going on, The RAPTURE HAS HAPPENED, and the TWO WITNESSES are about to come on the Scene, converting MOST of Jews, that JESUS IS THEIR MESSIAH. THEN, and ONLY THEN, approximately 7 years after it STARTED, JESUS will Come to MAKE WAR on the NATIONS that have attacked ISRAEL. And along with HIM, we will come riding White Horses.

Zechariah 14:16-18 (ESV)
*16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.
17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nat ions that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

*They will be the Mortals in the Millennial Kingdom.

You are way off on a crazy tangent. Again.

v. 5 "them" "they"
v. 6 "they"
v. 7 "them"
v.8 "them
v. 9 "them"
v. 10 "them"

"Now these things happened to "them" as examples and were written down as warnings for US, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come."

The fulfillment of the ages is upon US, the redeemed, those bequeathed with eternal life.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_corinthians/10-11.htm

The end times chronological order Jesus lays out is:
1. period of birth pains
2. the great tribulation
3. the return of Jesus and the rapture
4. God's wrath like the flood in the days of Noah.

Matthew 24:3(KJV) - the disciples ask Jesus what the sign of His coming and the end of the world.

Matthew 24:4-14 - Jesus describes the signs of the beginning of birth pains.

Matthew 24:15-25 - Jesus describes the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:26-31 - Jesus says He returns after the tribulation to gather His elect.

Matthew 24:32-35 -the lesson of the fig tree.

Matthew 24:36-51 - Jesus compares His return the the flood in the days of Noah and expounds a little more on how the wicked and righteous are dealt with (one taken another left) then encourages to keep watch for His return.

FreeGrace2 said:
You still haven't explained your spiritualized version of Rev 20 and what "the end" and "has ended" means in reference to 1,000 years.

But go ahead and make up whatever you want. Let's see how reasonable it sounds.

Coming from one who rejects the clarity of Rev 20!

There is NO truth in spiritualizing Scripture, which is what you are doing.

When one spiritualizes Scripture, they can make up anything that want. And Rev 20 is as literal as your nose.


It's all there. But you'd rather spiritualize and ignore reality.

Why won't you explain the "the end" and "has ended" means when attached to "1,000 years".

Kinda difficult to spiritualize that one, huh.


Doesn't matter how many times you state your own fantasy. Still doesn't make it real.


Why don't your prove your fantasy then?


Then prove your opinion. I have the actual words of Scripture. All you have is an opinion attached to verses that you've made up to mean something other than what is there.


Why would anyone think this applies to Rev 20? Just because both mention 1,000 years? Pretty shallow thinking.


OK, you've quoted the passage in Rev 20. I color coded the words that you WON'T explain by spiritualizing. Please try.

If they aren't literal, then what?

I have color coded in red to help you better understand

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

Satan Is Currently Bound For A Long Period Of Time, Not Literal (Thousand Years) And Will Be Loosed At The End Of The Future Tribulation To Gather The Nations To Battle

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

FreeGrace2 said:
You still haven't explained your spiritualized version of Rev 20 and what "the end" and "has ended" means in reference to 1,000 years.

But go ahead and make up whatever you want. Let's see how reasonable it sounds.

Coming from one who rejects the clarity of Rev 20!

There is NO truth in spiritualizing Scripture, which is what you are doing.

When one spiritualizes Scripture, they can make up anything that want. And Rev 20 is as literal as your nose.

It's all there. But you'd rather spiritualize and ignore reality.

Why won't you explain the "the end" and "has ended" means when attached to "1,000 years".

How is this an explanation of what I was asking. All you've done is repeat yourself with opinions.

And your statement "Rev 20:1-6 is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Stan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?" doesn't even make sense.

So, I must ask, what ,specifically, is "In The Lords (Spiritual)"? All you did was list a bunch of things, people, God and angels.

But this is no surprise. Your theory regarding Rev 20 is just as mixed up and indecipherable as your sentence.

And you DIDN'T explain the words that were attached to "1,000 years".


So you think Satan is bound CURRENTLY?? Are you kidding? So, please prove your opinion with clear evidence from Scripture.

Again, all you do is make claims but provide NO EVIDENCE from Scripture. Given all the evil in the world today, claiming that Satan is CURRENTLY BOUND is beyond absurd.


OK, since you missed my question again, I will again color code the words that I would like you to explain.

There are 2 phrases in red. Please explain what they refer to. What is clear is that this time period (1,000 years) has an END to it.

And you haven't yet explained what that means.

Can you?

You are way off on a crazy tangent. Again.

v. 5 "them" "they"
v. 6 "they"
v. 7 "them"
v.8 "them"
v. 9 "them"
v. 10 "them"

"Now these things happened to "them" as examples and were written down as warnings for US, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come."

The fulfillment of the ages is upon US, the redeemed, those bequeathed with eternal life.

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_corinthians/10-11.htm

The Church has been taken out of the midst of the tribulation. The specific term "Church" is never to be seen, noted or recognized in the text during this time-span. Nowhere in the Bible does it EVER state that the Church will see tribulation-wrath. It ALWAYS says that we will we removed from the time and place of it and receive comfort/consolation/rest while it is happening.

Group to whom you are referring are the "tribulation saints". A specific class unto themselves and unique.

You're making the common mistake of mashing-up very specific unique groups, which leads to an aberrant end-time eschatology.

Correct! (if you mean what I *think* you mean... I'm reading your words potentially two different ways! LOL... Only ONE would be CORRECT! )



[that is, IF you mean that "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" IS DISTINCT FROM "this/the PRESENT age [singular]" (the one WE are standing in and speaking out from!)]

Matt. 24. states Jesus speaking "after the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send forth His angels to gather the elect from the 4 corners of heaven"

Isn't that a simple plain statement? "after the tribulation"

Folks go on about the beast who is Antichrist forcing everyone to take his mark, how can this happen after Jesus returns? Antichrist is slain when the Lord returns.

Therefore the mark of the beast comes before the rapture, it is this persecution of those who refuse his mark which is the great tribulation.

The Church has been taken out of the midst of the tribulation. Yes, the every day tribulation of the church age.
The church will certainly be taken out before the 70th week and the wrath of God.
Perhaps we agree.

Matthew 24:21-29 (KJV)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I have always said, the Rapture Takes place between REV. 4:1 and REV. 6:14. I will AMMEND that to no later than REV. 6:12, when the moon is darking to the point of it is only visible as blood red.

Revelation 6:12 (KJV)
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

NOTICE: The verse you referred to, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, is two verses Before the Moon GIVES NO LIGHT.

Within the realm of Posiblity is anything between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 6:12, because the Moon is giving off some Light in Rev. 6:12.

Since the Decision is totally up to the FATHER, HE could say: "ENOUGH, IS ENOUGH; GO GET YOUR BRIDE NOW!"

But since that involves all of PRETRIBULATION, I cannot rule out any of it, HENCE the Reason for Mat 25:13, even though I doubt it will be before Rev. 4:1.

I meant what you thought I meant - I think!
The rapture ends the church age and "time" goes right back to Jewish time as if the parenthesis of the church age was removed. But by that time, the Jewish age will have run out it the long promised Day of the Lord will start.

<<<The rapture ends the church age and "time" goes right back to Jewish time>>>
Absolutely correct.

IMO, the DOTL actually initiates in heaven at the receiving of the scroll by the Lamb. This incident is a big deal as there is a chorus of praise occurring by the host of heaven including the Church/24 Elders, who have been JUST RECENTLY RAPTURED. No man knows the day or the hour......because it's impossible for men to know what's happening in heaven, furthermore this taking of the scroll is initiated at the discretion of the Father alone. This principle resolves all of the confusion people have regarding "imminency" problem. The point is that when the BIRTH PANGS/SEALS start....the RETURN/SECOND COMING is a done deal. The rest they say is history.

I would be very interested to know what TheDivineWatermark thinks of this theory of mine. If anybody knows where he is please rattle his cage and ask him to reply.

Since Paul taught that the rapture would come JUST before the DAY, as in being the trigger for the Day, you can forget Rev. 4:1 and just believe the rapture will be "just" before the 6th seal. That fits with John because he saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter.

The signs in Matthew 24 are the signs of His coming to Armageddon - and the sign is TOTAL DARKNESS! The sun and moon will not be seen. On the other hand, the signs at the 6th seal are both SEEN. How would one know the moon is red unless they SEE IT. This sign is speaking of total eclipses and it is the sign of the coming Day of the Lord. TWO different signs, for TWO different purposes.

Pretrib rapture? What makes any of you think you deserve an escape from great tribulation? Because you're born again? Because of your privileged western life? Peter was born again, as was Paul; one was crucified upside down the other beheaded. Born again believers (brothers and sisters that make up the bride of Christ) from the 1st century to this very day are going through great tribulation. Look around and see what out brothers and sisters are enduring in Africa, China, the middle east, etc. The western Christian thinks they deserve to escape the guillotine or the noose or the burning alive simply because... Oh, yeah, 50 reasons. Don't be deceived by that which is pleasing to the ears. Careful or you'll take the mark of the beast; your mind is filled with a false hope that you'll be secretly raptured before the antichrist even shows up.

Filthy sinners all (self included). Many will be tried and many will be faithful through their trials. The way to life is narrow, and the gate strait. Can you imagine the pain and suffering our Christian brothers and sisters have endured and are enduring as you read this; their reward is great. Comfort one another with that: ready yourself to endure for the reward is great.

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.