50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

This is a public forum where there are no outsiders. What Freegrace said is Biblical and on topic for the Bible discussion forum. You're free to discuss and believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it correct or agreeable.

So on that note we are here to discuss too. I don't call you and outsider so why do you call others one?

I beg to differ with you, I can think of two VERSES where it is implied.

Whatever you want, I was referring to NON-Believers in the Rapture, and most of Us are Evangelical types, and almost every Evangelical bellieves in the rapture.

Don't you just at that 5 minute rule to edit.

Here are the two verses:

Zechariah 14:5 (NCV)
5 You will run through this mountain valley to the other side, just as you ran from the earthquake when Uzziah was king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with him.

Revelation 6:9-11 (NCV)
9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the word of God and to the message they had received.
10 These souls shouted in a loud voice, “Holy and true Lord, how long until you judge the people of the earth and punish them for killing us?“
11 Then each one of them was given a white robe and was told to wait a short time longer. There were still some of their fellow servants and brothers and sisters in the service of Christ who must be killed as they were. They had to wait until all of this was finished.

Now isn't that PART of all the holy ones with him.

We will reign as preists on earth, and our jobs will be on earth.

Revelation 20:4-6 (NCV)
4 Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the message of Jesus and the message from God. They had not worshiped the beast or his idol, and they had not received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for a thousand years.
5 (The others that were dead did not live again until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first raising of the dead.
6 Happy and holy are those who share in this first raising of the dead. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests for God and for Christ and will rule with him for a thousand years.

By the way, what category do you put SCOFFERS IN ? ? ?

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

The poster you were addressing is a churlish character who regularly orders other members out of a thread he began.
These are not discussion-threads to him they are petty dictatorships.
He once told me to "start your own thread" despite my post being exactly on topic.

No matter how on-topic a post is he will try to dominate the thread and freeze discussion out.

Link to an example which proves my point below:

Not sure how I missed this post:

I've never made such a point.

In fact, in a great MANY posts, I've said the exact opposite of what you are suggesting I've said...

I've said "our Rapture" IS connected to "the MARRIAGE" itself... for in the phrase, "and so shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord," that this MEANS that very thing (which I pointed out, is a DISTINCT "with" word from the one used with regard to the "5 virginS [PLURAL]" Matt25 [who He is NOT "MARRYING"] who will go in "with [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 time-slot);

So, what I've said is that Matt25:1-13 is NOT "the MARRIAGE," but is instead their entrance into "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES [/earthly MK age]," and that NOWHERE in this parable (or related ones) is "the Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" being mentioned or referenced, here in this text (or related parables / contexts).

I've said it is. ("our Rapture" = when we are "G4862'd UNIONed-with" Him!! YES!) This is what I've been stating all along, throughout this thread. ("our Rapture" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved 'in this present age [singular]']; NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods--NOT to OT saints, NOT to Trib saints, NOT to MK saints);

But Matthew 25:1-13 (and all of the Olivet Discourse) is NOT covering THAT Subject (the "MARRIAGE" / "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... rather, Jesus is covering the Subject of (what we call) His Second Coming to the earth (and what immediately precedes and leads UP TO that point), FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" there.

Correct.

But the "10 virginS [PLURAL]" (or even just the "5 virginS [PLURAL]") is NOT speaking of THAT ^ .

Jesus (in this CONTEXT) is not showing / depicting / conveying / suggesting that this passage means He'll be coming at that point to "MARRY" 10 or even 5 "virginS [PLURAL]"... NO! (this passage pertains to "the wedding FEAST," NOT "the MARRIAGE," see. He will be an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point in the chronology--same as Lk12:36 and context conveys ).

Can you please reply with a link to some posts you made about the 10 virgins of Matthew 25?
I was speaking to a young pastor on this matter yesterday and I would like to review your notes.

To take the serpent by the tail here on your last point I agree those who John saw who were dressed in white which no man could number were martyrs .... I believe the whole end time church practically will be martyred.

Antichrist must be revealed but also he will have a career in opposing everything god so-called. He as supreme world leader will set out to destroy ALL religion ... this is the great end time persecution we are warned of, the great tribulation.

OK we'll call them virgins if that pleases you ... maidens have the same meaning.

Bro we's ALL unworthy, we are all told to watch and prays and we ALL slumbered and slept ... just as the disciples slumbered and slept in the garden.

My point is they are not the BRIDE, WE are the bride, we come with the Groom and we will not need to seek entrance into the wedding feast . I am not altering scripture I AM altering how it has been interpreted.

What Paul means when he says "cut off from Christ" is another huge, HUGE topic and needs a seperate debate. I don't believe anybody who is born again can be lost and I certainly do not believe anybody will be left behind at the rapture.

Antichrist is not just revealed, he has a career of opposing everything god so called, this is the great endtimes persecution or the great tribulation.

When Jesus comes He destroys the Antichrist ... that is the END of his career not the beginning.

You said that better than i could.

A postrib rapture lawyer argued ;"I present to you a picture of the alledged murder wheopon ....NOWHERE ON THE KNIFE DOES IT SAY 'BUTCHER KNIFE'...so, The prosecution has no case. Please mr prosecutor show the jury where it says "butcher knife" anywhere on it"

That is how silly their argument is.

Saying "revealed" means something other than revealed is poor exegesis.

But keep trying.

You confuse "unworthy for the rapture" with salvation


You are STARTING in a false dynamic.

Therefore you are forced to modify meanings.

I laid it out using the proper meanings.

We have the groom with the church going to the wedding chamber.

You NEED IT to be something else...WITH NO RED FLAGS!!

I just took the serpent by the tail

Zec 14:5 This verse fits either pre or post just as well. It is close to saying he armies of heaven follow Him.

If you leave the 5th seal in its context, it is church age martyrs. The rapture CANNOT come until the final church age martyr is killed. Thanks, Friend: you just showed us a PRETRIB verse! the pretrib rapture ENDS the church age, so that makes the final martyr, and then judgment can start.

Yes, I have always believed that those seated on thrones judging were the raptured church and OT believers.

I stand by what I wrote: There is NO VERSE ANYWHERE that says Jesus takes the raptured church back down to earth. That is false doctrine. On the other hand, that is the pretrib hand, there is John 14.

You haven't read my posts then. I NEVER asked for, much less demanded "wording" that satisfies me. I HAVE asked for verses that teach that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

The sole issue is whether raptures the living believers and takes them back to heaven. I have found NO VERSE that says that.

The SOLE issue Then why did you write this: A Pre-Trib rapture is found no place in scripture, a false teaching. It seems you have other "issues."

Then why your laughter? And the question. Because 2 Thes. 2:1 is only Paul's THEME for the passage. And EVERYONE knows Jesus must come before the rapture can take place. You thought that verse answered some question.

1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Here is the post:
Lamad said: "If the 1 Thes 4 coming is after the trib, prove it by scripture. Just someone believing something is no proof."
You said: "Easy. 2 Thess 2:1 The order is very clear. "

I understand, if someone believes there is only ONE MORE coming, then when they see the word "coming" it MUST refer to that one more coming. Got it. But I think the bible is clear there are TWO more comings: first a coming (1 Thes 4) FOR His bride, then another coming WITH His bride (Rev, 19) So your verse answers nothing. That is why I laughed.

Why the question?

Lamad wrote: "OF COURSE He comes first, then there is a shout and a trumpet...and then the dead in Christ are caught up. But WHEN? People look in all the wrong places for WHEN. Paul is the only one that gives us WHEN for this event: just before wrath."

Again I understand, this would all be confusing to someone who only sees one more coming. But what do the scriptures tell us? Have you mediated on 1 Thes. 5? Do you really understand Paul's intent there? I think Paul tells us TIMING for the rapture: JUST BEFORE the start of Wrath. If so, how could there possibly be only one more coming? The entire 70th week is wrath. How could anyone believe wrath comes ONLY when Jesus comes? I cannot understand that.

The DOTL begins at the Second Advent How about we see what the scriptures tell us about when"

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Do you agree with me that this verse tells us the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord has come? Did you take note that this is in chapter 6 and His coming to Armageddon is in chapter 19? All the events of chapters 8 through 16 happen BETWEEN. How then can ANYONE day that the DOTL begins when Jesus comes? Will you take a seal from the book and move it to chapter 16 to make your theory work?

Just so you will always know: the Day of the Lord starts before the 70th week so that the ENTIRE WEEK comes with God's wrath. And the rapture comes before any part of the wrath. Paul hints strongly that the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the Day of His wrath. Where is this in Revelation?

Rev. 5:6 gives us the timing of the first seals: Jesus ascension and His sending the Holy Spirit down: AD 32 or close. So the first seal is the church sent out with the gospel.
Seals 2-4 are the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

They are told that judgment (God's wrath?) cannot come until the final martyr is killed. That, my friend, is a HINT to the timing of the rapture. It will be the rapture that ENDS the church age and STARTS the Day of the Lord.

In Revelation then, the rapture will come just before the 6th seal is opened to begin Wrath.

In summary, the DOTL starts LONG before Jesus return in chapter 19 - over 7 years before. Will you admit this?

You are confused. When Jesus returns, you bet there will be "sudden destruction" Anyone can guess what happens at Armageddon. It won't be pretty! But sorry, you are miles off from scripture. How do you do that? Imagination?

The ONLY PLACE we find "sudden destruction" is in Paul's rapture passage. I understand, since you imagine only one more coming, EVERYTHING has to happen then! It is CRUNCH time! In reality, much of what you imagine happens then actually is divided into TWO comings. Don't take my word for it: Go and study! Paul's rapture is back to back with the Day of the Lord. It cannot be moved anywhere. Neither can the Day of the Lord be moved anywhere. John placed it before the 70th week. NO one has the right to move it - especially to fit some false theory. ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

Not in the slightest. (the rapture timed to wrath)

Let's see what the scriptures say: Three (3) verses after Paul's classic rapture verse of the Lord catching up of those who are alive and in Christ:

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Now why in the world would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just three verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the Day of the Lord comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now why in the world would Paul mention "sudden destruction: just four verses after those alive and remaining being caught up - UNLESS the "sudden Destruction: was associated with and comes right after the rapture? Then it would make sense.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now, why in the world would Paul mention us not being appointed to wrath in his classic rapture passage - that is UNLESS wrath follows rapture?

I understand, you want all this to come in the Rev. 19 coming. Sorry, it does not fit Revelation. It doesn't fit anything scriptural because God is pretrib and we are going to be out of here before wrath.

I am trying to understand you: if you WANT to see the Antichrist, and if you WANT to be overcome, fine: I think God gives us the desires of our heart. But my friend, God has an ESCAPE plan!

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Why not, rather than argue against this escape plan, why not plan on TAKING it? You and all of us have a choice: we can be EXPECTING and LOOKING FOR His coming today and tomorrow, so we will be found watching - or we can be left behind to be overcome. I would wrath be found expecting and looking for HIM!

Can you honestly tell me that if Jesus showed up tonight for His bride, that you would not be shocked?[/QUOTE]
The way you "organize" your posts I cannot figure out what you are quoting from me or yourself. Esp #1227. So, please view that post and clean it up and I will be able to respond.

maybe you just need to figure out how to "quote" others better.

Thanks.

I have never argued otherwise. Even the Second advent verses mentions the clouds. That isn't the issue.

Show me in plain language to prove your claim.

I don't push that either. The raptured believers NEVER leave earth's atmosphere either. That's the issue.

Right. pre-trib rapture is nonsensical, since the Bible does NOT mention it.

Then prove it with a verse that teaches that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

Well, you are wrong. 2 Thess 2:1 clearly indicates that the 'coming of the Lord' precedes our being gathered to Him.

Please share your most favorite and clear "pre-trib rapture" verse and I will PROVE that it doesn't say what you want it to say.

Don't be silly. How can any child of God ignore God's plan? If I'm wrong, I will be smiling as much as you. However, if you are wrong, how will that affect your faith, given that you are so dead set on your theories?

Are you ready to face what's coming? Obviously not.

I said:
"Show me ANY verse that says Jesus raptures living believers (gathering up) and then TAKES THEM UP TO HEAVEN.

Well, can you?"
If you had, you would have just given it again, to PROVE me wrong. Instead, you only punted because you never did.

There aren't any such verses, and you KNOW it. So quit faking it.