50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Ah, yes. Go to ad hominem when you are out of ammo. Good show!

Well, old man, so am I. So what? As to arguing, I DEFEND the truth against those who have other ideas. If you don't like arguing, these forums aren't for you.

Why should I?

Are you really that unaware of Titus 1:13?

You have NO ammo. You've made that clear. And lowering yourself to throwing an ad hominem illustrates that.

Well then, if that were true, why not just quote both of them about that? That's what I've been asking the pre-tribbers for a very long time. All I get in return is a lot of "construct".

Actually, the 70th week is the 7 years of Tribulation.

You are so mistaken. You seem unaware of 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The "each in turn" is followed by 2 "groups". Christ is FIRST, followed by "those who belong to Him". That would include EVERY believer since Adam. And since the subject here is the resurrection, Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", one that can not die, and every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent.

Your opinion has no validity. I would say the opposite. It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc.

But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR, which follows Jesus on the white horse.

Here is all of v.7 - Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

All of this is just before Jesus takes off for war on earth, to end the battle of Armageddon.

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

This is what follows the Bride who "has made herself READY". It doesn't say she is married. Please pay attention.

The Bride gets herself ready, and what immediately follows is the trip to earth for the battle of Armageddon. THEN, after Jesus defeats the enemy, the wedding occurs, on earth.

Proof of what, exactly?

To be clear to the readers: I was not suggesting that the "10 VirginS" parable speaks of "our Rapture," NO! (it doesn't. Because these PLURAL "virginS" are NOT who He is coming "TO MARRY"--rather, this is "the wedding FEAST" context, i.e. the earthly MK age and their ENTRANCE into that time-period, upon His "RETURN" to the earth [at Rev19; Lk12:36 and context, etc]).



What Paul was given to write concerning "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (US), he wrote, "[v.10]...that whether we might WATCH *or* whether were might SLEEP [SAME two words as in v.6 of this SAME CONTEXT; where "SLEEP" here is a DISTINCT sleep word from that of chpt 4 speaking of "died/death" there], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" (1Th5:10,6);

(again, a DISTINCT "with" word from the one used in Matt25:10 regarding the PLURAL "[5] virginS" going in with [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him "to the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" aka the earthly MK age at its commencing, upon His "RETURN" to the earth). He's not coming to "MARRY" those. [and... not to mention... they (the 10 VirginS) will all be "still-living" persons at the time-slot being spoken of, in that context]

EDIT: correcting typo... should read: "whether we"

Disagree (again = ) ).

Consider where I covered this, in a different thread:

Post #1454 (middle section of post) - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4493523


[and in...]

Post #1501 - https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4494002

All of your underlines, brackets, boldings, and parentheses make reading your quotes and posts difficult.

Just give your explanations without all that. It's much easier to follow.

2 Timothy 2:22-24 (NCV)
22 But run away from the evil young people like to do. Try hard to live right and to have faith, love, and peace, together with those who trust in the Lord from pure hearts.
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and patient.

Titus 3:9-10 (NCV)
9 But stay away from those who have foolish arguments and talk about useless family histories and argue and quarrel about the law. Those things are worth nothing and will not help anyone.
10 After a first and second warning, avoid someone who causes arguments.

Well then, if that were true, why not just quote both of them about that? It is the Word of God. Of course it is true.

That's what I've been asking the pre-tribbers for a very long time. Most pretribbers imagine the rapture is in Rev. 4:1! Anyone that can read knows that is very poor exegesis. But then, I could say the same thing for people that think the gathering of the elect in Mattew 24 is Paul's rapture.

Actually, the 70th week is the 7 years of Tribulation. Yes, one thing (Maybe the only thing) we can agree on.

You are so mistaken. No, I am not. It is written.

if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Their body is "asleep" (DEAD) in the grave, but Jesus will bring "them" meaning their spirit men and women, with Him. I think we can agree the dead in Christ will VASTLY outnumber those alive and in Christ who will be caught up after the dead. Those who Jesus will bring with Him will join with their new resurrection bodies and be whole once again. Now what part of this do you not believe?

each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. This is scripture and of course truth.
That would include EVERY believer since Adam.
My friend, we don't or shouldn't form doctrine from isolated verses: we glean from ALL end time verses before we form doctrine. Yes, it does say "those who belong to Him." But from 1 Thes 4 we know Paul's gathering is ONLY those who are "In Christ." In other words, the NT church - the born again ones - the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven. Sorry, Old Testament saints of a different group. Their resurrection will come on the last day (of the 70th week.)

When God raises the dead, that raising causes an earthquake. We see this in Matthew 24. It will be caused when God pulls the "dust" together that once made up their bodies. When God raises the OT saints, to include those before the flood, it will cause the entire planet to shake - the exact earthquake we see at the 7th vial. I am convinced that is when the OT saints will rise. Of course Jesus raised the ELDERS as we see in Matthew 27.

Sorry, only those "IN CHRIST" will rise at Jesus coming to the clouds as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I must disagree with you here.

Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", Again we can agree! Hallelujah!

every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent. No. You are trying to lump many verses together as if one event. That is error. God back and read Paul. AT Paul's gathering, it is ONLY those in Christ. And this makes perfect sense. After Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. It was like a big ( church age ) It would look like this "Jewish age after Messiah........( church age )....Jewish age continues with 70th week.

So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST. None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.

It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church. What are you going to do with John 14? People have BEEN to heaven and came back. They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.

Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?

But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.

So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

This is really showing us that in his narrative, the marriage ceremony over and now it is time for the supper. The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.

Please pay attention. Yes, please do! But I suspect we read these verses differently and will disagree.

The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof. Proof that the scene is in heaven. That is where the throne is.

Sorry to interrupt the lively chatter.

1,045 replies is too many to read, but has anybody mentioned the SIX times that "Last Day" is referenced in the book of John? Jesus Himself mentions it FIVE times.

(John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48)

These are just a few of the many verses that support a Post-Trib Rapture.

This what do you think of this verse? You quoted it but left no explanation. 1 Thess 4 is cited many times as a pre-trib rapture verse. That's what I thought for many years, too.

I believe all of it, of course. It is written, remember?

each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Click to expand...

1 Cor 15:23 is so clear, how can it not include every person who has believed in the Messiah from Adam on?

Where do you see any verse saying that Jesus leaves out anyone from an event, or that there are several different events that eventually include all who belong to Him.

btw, 1 Cor 15:23 shows 2 groups in the resurrection. The first one is, of course, the "first fruits", Jesus Christ, who was the FIRST person to receive a resurrection body. The second group is "those who belong to Him".

Can you defend that "those who belong to Him" cannot be every believer from Adam on?

Can you show me that no OT believer is "in Christ"?

I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU


Of course Jesus raised the ELDERS as we see in Matthew 27.

Sorry, only those "IN CHRIST" will rise at Jesus coming to the clouds as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. I must disagree with you here.

Christ was the first human to have a "resurrection body", Again we can agree! Hallelujah!

every one else (believers) get theirs at the same event, which is when Christ returns at the second advent. No. You are trying to lump many verses together as if one event. That is error. God back and read Paul. AT Paul's gathering, it is ONLY those in Christ. And this makes perfect sense. After Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, God sent Paul to the Gentiles. It was like a big ( church age ) It would look like this "Jewish age after Messiah........( church age )....Jewish age continues with 70th week.

So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST. None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.

It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church. What are you going to do with John 14? People have BEEN to heaven and came back. They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.

Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?

But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.

So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

This is really showing us that in his narrative, the marriage ceremony over and now it is time for the supper. The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.

Please pay attention. Yes, please do! But I suspect we read these verses differently and will disagree.

The elders and four beasts and the throne are proof. Proof that the scene is in heaven. That is where the throne is.[/QUOTE]

[re: Post #1049] ^ The phrase "the last day" does not speak to "a singular 24-hour day"

...rather, pertains to the "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" referenced in Hosea 5:14-6:3 (factored from the time of Christ's ascension, per vv.14-15)...

...as has been discussed in about 1000 previous threads (some posts by me, in those threads )






Welcome, New Member @S3RV4NT , to CC... hope to see you around the boards!

^ Here's one I posted in January, on that:

Post #665 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4457396


[note also the last line of my post, in view of what I'd put in that post]


[and]

Post #54 (in December) - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...ay-was-taken-in-the-flood.196248/post-4441859


[and]

Post #153 - https://christianchat.com/threads/wake-up-church-the-time-has-come.196183/post-4437001


[and]

Post #265 (in Nov) - https://christianchat.com/threads/living-in-the-millenia.195620/post-4413085


[and]

Post #251 (in Aug) - https://christianchat.com/threads/t...he-second-coming-of-jesus.193961/post-4352922

This is a continuation from post 1050. For some reason my computer locked up and I couldn't type. So I refreshed, and continued answering the post, but the website thought I was editing, and it timed me out.

So, here's the rest of my response to lamad:


I wouldn't ever equate an event that YOU assume to create an earthquake and then pin that on one of the wraths of God.

It would be nice to include the exact verse you are thinking of.

No problem. The problem is that you now have to prove from Scripture that no OT believer is "in Christ".

And you also have the problem explaining that "those who belong to Him" cannot include both OT and NT believers.

Actually, it's the way to study Scripture. When different passages describe events that share mostly common characteristics, it's a no-brainer.

So you think that 1 Cor 15:23 means only NT believers? But the verse doesn't say that. It says, "those who belong to Him". Can you show me from Scripture that OT believers cannot be said to "belong to Him".

Consider this verse from Paul:

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Do you see anything here that would separate OT from NT believers? I don't.

So everything pertaining to the church is separate from anything in the Jewish age. Only JESUS links the two. The church is IN CHRIST.

Click to expand...

I can't wait for your explanation of how no OT believer is "in Christ". And don't forget to address 1 Tim 4:10.

None of the OT saints were or even could be. Therefore I disagree with you, although I see where you are coming from.

Click to expand...

Explain what Paul meant in 1 Tim 4:10. It's clear enough to me.

It 's a stretch to claim a pre-trib rapture, wedding in heaven, etc. It is far more of a stretch to say the gathering in Matthew 24 has ANYTHING to do with the church.

Click to expand...

It's a description of the Second Coming, which includes a gathering.

btw, Paul noted the same thing in 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

What are you going to do with John 14?

Click to expand...

What would you like me to do with it? I'd be happy to explain any verse you are curious about. Let me know.

People have BEEN to heaven and came back.

Click to expand...

Prove it.

They have SEEN mansions. Some have seen THEIR OWN mansion. People have SEEN the preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread as far as the eye can see. Lately some have been told all is prepared: heaven is just waiting on the church.

Click to expand...

Again, prove it. I am NOT aware of any verse or passage that supports any of this.

Did you ever wonder why the marriage and supper passages are late in the book, back in chapter 19?

Click to expand...

Are you now back in Rev 19, or are you still in Matt 24?

But this ISN'T the wedding. The words clearly indicate what is ABOUT TO OCCUR All thrugh the book, John uses Greek Aorist tense verbs for the most part. Then truly have NO tense. There is no timing information included in these verbs. So when we see "is come" it is the Greek "erchomai ." This Greek word has NO TIMING. It is the same with many things in Revelation, like when Wrath comes.

Click to expand...

This info supports my view, not yours. If the wedding happened 7 years before Christ gathers His army to leave heaven and return to earth, the wording would have been different. But it is wording as "about to happen".

So HOW then can we tell any timing in Revelation? It is the TIME of the first mention. It happens RIGHT THEN in John's narrative. For example, John's first mention of wrath is the Day of His wrath, so wrath begins right there in that verse. Keep in mind, John is just touching the mountain tops here: the briefest of summaries. The marriage in two verses, the supper in the next.

Click to expand...

The "timing" in Revelation is admittedly difficult to figure out. I look at events that resemble other events in previous epistles.


OK, I'll agree. And the very next event is Jesus leaving heaven with His army, headed to earth to end Armageddon.

The next verse is on to another subject. By verse 12, the marraige and supper are over and John is on to the next event.

Click to expand...

That isn't at all clear in the text. But nice try. The next verse is, as you say, another subject. Which happens right away.

Of course all of these are in heaven. What's your point about that? All of them are seen in Rev 4. What's the point?

Thank you for the warm welcome.

Wow, that is an unusual response on 'the last day.' Was not expecting that at all.

Strong's Concordance lists the word 'Last' in Greek as 'eschatos' meaning last, extreme.

It lists 'Day' in the Greek as 'Hmera, (Hemera)' meaning: the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours.

No disrespect, but ... I gotta go with 'Last Day' on this one. Last day of the world just before The Wrath or Judgment of God.

Matthew also tells us very clearly that Jesus will return AFTER the Tribulation.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: ... they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ..."
(Matthew 24:29-31)

Matthew 27:
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

This is a resurrection: and an earthquake

Rev. 11
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake

This is a resurrection: and an earthquake

A coincidence? I think not. When God resurrects those long dead, He must first reform the body that died. I am convinced, from string theory that at some level, the "dust" will have an identity of that dead body. God won't just use any dust: it will be THE dust from the body that turned to dust. Now imagine those who died before the flood. The dust that once formed their bodies could be separated, particle from particle, for thousands of miles. Yet in a split second, the Holy Spirit will gather the "dust" that once made up those bodies and reform it back to the same body that died. All I am saying is, it makes good sense that such a resurrection will CAUSE an earthquake.

When I think of those from before the flood, I am convinced that it will cause the world's worst earthquake. Where do we find the world's worst ever earthquake? It is at the 7th vial on the "last day" of the Jewish age - the very day that Jesus said He would raise the dead. Therefore I suspect the OT saints will be raised at the 7th vial. It is only a guess. I cannot prove it with scripture - but then, no one can prove otherwise.

Next, were the OT saints "in Christ?" No, that would be impossible because they lived BEFORE Christ. Only two people (exceptions to the rule) made it to heaven before Christ came: Enoch and Elijah - the very two that I suspect will be the Two Witnesses. How God did it is His business. But until Christ died and rose again, all the righteous dead had to go to paradise in hades - the place of departed spirits. It was not until Christ rose from the Dead that paradise or Abraham's bosom could be released and taken to heaven.

Therefore the OT saints are a different group from the NT saints.

Yes, it says "those who belong to him. But 1 Thes 4, speaking of the same event, says only those IN CHRIST.

We will probably disagree until we arrive in heaven, and then we won't care. We read these verses differently.

No, because there is no proof that those who are raised there are the bride of Christ. It seems rather not, for Paul's timing is not "the last day" but rather just before wrath." I can't figure out how to make those to the same day.

Welcome, newcomer!

"Day" is used for daylight hours, for a 24 hour period starting at sunset, and in the Day of the Lord for a long, extended period of time. Jesus could have meant a 24 hour day, or the long extended day. We probably then should form doctrine from other verses.

Yes, OF COURSE Jesus returns after the "tribulation." We see that coming in Rev. 19. But we also see a different coming in 1 Thes. 4 - a coming only to the air, and a coming just before wrath.

By the way, I do believe the last 24 hours of the Jewish age is when Jesus raises the OT saints.

A
Amen, brother. I stand with you on that!

Job talked about it in Job 19:25-27... when examined carefully (and in conjunction with other passages) it can be seen he was not speaking merely of a "singular 24-hr day" ("H314 - 'at the latter day' as it is phrased in the kjv... ['the last, hindermost'] - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/19-25.htm )

The text says, "armies [plural]"... and the Greek word for "armies [plural]" is never used (in the plural) in reference to "angels" (I'm not saying these can't be PART of the "armies [plural]"... just that, if it had meant ONLY "angels," it would not be written in the plural, as it *is* here). https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/19-14.htm - Rev19:14

Just my two cents. = )