Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?

Please quote the Scripture where "Paul tells us the law is abolished."

Please quote the Scripture that states "God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us".

If we're trying to understand what Scripture does say, there is no point in discussing things that Scripture does not say.

Blik's modus operandi is to function under the presentation of misrepresentations.

After being witness to this propensity of hers for so long, it is difficult to believe it isn't deliberate.

Matthew 5:17-20

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


The Law has not been abolished.. Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the Law.


Here is what Paul says in Ephesians 2:14-16

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Paul is referring to the peace Jesus brings by tearing down the hostility between those in the Mosaic covenant and those outside of it - the dividing wall.
Christ fulfilled the law thus when Paul says the law was abolished he means that by Christ fulfilling the law he removed the condemnation of the law from believers..

'There is now no dividing wall between jew and gentile all are one new human race under the second Adam- Esv Study bible note'

So Christ fulfilled the law, the dividing wall and condemnation has been abolished for believers. One people in Christ reconciled.

In relation to the law being abolished, I'm guessing that she's referring to the following:

"And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:" (II Cor. 3:13)

Again:

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" (Eph. 2:15)

Now, as to what Paul meant in these verses...well, I trust that you already know that that is a matter of endless debate.

Read Hebrews chapter 10.

the law of Christ is what David was speaking of when your reading David’s psalms they are prophetic about Jesus

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:29-31‬ ‭

the law of Moses is not Gods law , the word of Christ is Gods law . The Old Testament law came because of mans sin after the covenant was already made mans sin brought the law

“For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

David had already broken the law of Moses by winning several
Sins of death adultery , and conspiracy to commit murder , eventually causing Uriah’s death to cover his own sin of adultery as far as Moses law goes David was surely to be put to death for his sins

David is an interesting point of the salvation plan . A man who broke two capitol laws that require the sinners death. Just this one though

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that means David’s life is now condemned by Gods word in Moses law there’s no reprieve for David under the law he must surely be put to death to fulfill the law of Moses .David sinned and was sentenced to death by the law of Moses

Have you noticed that David was raised on the law and knew it well yet he’s always asking God to teach him his ways because David has realized he’s nothing but another sinner ? It’s because the law of Moses is not Gods actual ways and laws , it is how God treats untepentant sinners who have no hope of life it only came because men were sinners only because of sin do we even have the law of Moses

it’s different from Gods truth Gods law

I think you should study the difference in there two laws and what these teo
Laws actually are in scripture and it would help you understand


“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:2‬ ‭

There’s not just one law

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works?

Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:27-29, 31‬ ‭

the law of faith was before the law of Moses and that is the true law Moses law is for the lost Christs law brings them home again

First of all, the Lord did not abolish the law, He fulfilled it. He met all of its requirements, satisfying it completely and that on behalf of everyone who believes. Remember, God first gave the promise of salvation by grace through faith to Abraham 430 years before the law was given. Christ then is the end of the law for those who believe.

"Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised." - Galatians 3:19

amen I think the psalms also show the effect of the law to give the knowledge of sin and the guilt and condemnation it brings

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

David in the op had known Moses law always from youth and it did exactly what it was meant to do it showed David his iniquity and revealed the sin that was in him from birth . When we’re shown our sins and that sin is death it leaves us right where David was

“Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:

that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭51:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The knowledge of thier own sin that comes when one looks into the law , leaves us condemned and in a place where only Gods mercy , only Gods working in us only us depending on him the messiah , can we possibly be saved whether a Jew or gentile

the law was fulfilled for David also when Jesus died for David’s transgressions of the law it’s Jesus death that fulfills the law and our baptism into his death for our sins according to the law , that fulfills the laws righteous requirement on every sinner , that requirement being the death of the sinner

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭

the law concludes this for all mankind the wages of sin is death . The reason we’re baptized into Jesus death , is to fulfill the law that says we must die because we sinned also

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11‬ ‭

“Know ye not, brethren, how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;

that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

every man is under a certain death sentance because of Moses law and thier own transgression sin and death . Jesus is about raising us up from the death sentance for sin

the word of the law gives knowledge of sin and death for sin , and holds the guilty sinner in death . But the the word of the gospel raises those dead men and women and gives them life through the faith that comes through hearing the truth of the gospel

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;

but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Old Testament became a curse that holds all sinners in death because we all
Have sinned . The gospel gives the knowledge of salvation eternal Life , the first step is baptism into Christs death because it fulfills the law and sets us free into the gospel which is the word of the covenant made by promise to Abraham

“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15-17‬ ‭


Jesus death fulfills the requirement of death so the law can be remitted and someone can belong to the new covenant

In order for anyone to properly explain this, we would first need to know exactly what you're referring to in relation to "the law".

In scripture, there are at least four different things which are called "the law".

For example:

Mark chapter 10

[2] And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
[3] And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
[4] And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
[5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
[6] But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
[7] For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
[8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
[9] What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

In verse 4, the Pharisees quoted "the law" of Moses from Deuteronomy chapter 24.

The word "Deuteronomy" literally means "second law" or the second giving of "the law" that Moses received on Mt. Sinai.

However, while quoting from "the law" of Moses himself, Jesus cited Genesis 1:27 or Genesis 5:2 (vs. 6) and Genesis 2:24 (vs. 7), and these things happened at least 2500 years BEFORE Moses was given "the law" or the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai.

We see how "the law" can apply to this same PRE-MT. SINAI timeframe more clearly here:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." (I Cor. 14:34)

Here, Paul, while alluding to what was written in Genesis 3:16, called it "the law", and, again, this event transpired at least 2500 years before Moses received "the law" or the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai.

Then we have this to consider:

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." (Luke 24:44)

Here, Jesus clearly made a distinction between "the law of Moses", "the prophets" and "the psalms", yet, elsewhere in scripture, both the psalms and the prophets are called "the law".

For example, while citing Psalm 82:6, Jesus called it "the law":

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" (John 10:34)

Again, while citing what was written by the prophet in Isaiah 28:11-12, the Apostle Paul called it "the law":

"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." (I Cor. 14:21)

With these truths before us, when you refer to "the law", what, exactly, are you referring to?

Is it not a contradiction ahta a man, David led by the Holy Spirit , is the author of many of the Psalms, and in thme he declares he loves the law of God. Psalm 119 is a study of a life time in itself. Read it well and you will see mercy and grace in abundance.

The problem with your question/statement is that it is based on a faulty assumption. And that is that you think Paul says the law is abolished.

What Paul was referring to is the - dividing wall of hostility. The law in and off itself has not been abolished but fulfilled.

We can only answer the OP when we explain what Paul meant. In fact Dino asked this very question.

Amen thorough and informative stuff

also there’s Moses law refered to as the “book of the law “

this book of the law had a specific intent at the end of Moses life after God had looked and observed and tried the children of Israel for a time in the wilderness

“And the Lord appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:15-18, 24-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he then as a second witness gives them the song of Moses after placing the book of the law of Moses next to the ark bearing the Ten Commandments for the purpose of being a witness against the people who avid had found to be rebellious and knew they would stray terribly after Moses death and go to mother gods the law became a witness against sinners because of the people

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and later on in the prophets God promised to speak forth his law from Jerusalem as Moses had already written in the law beforehand himself succeeding authority to the coming messiah who would speak Gods true word of requirement (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 , acts 3:22-26)

long after the law from Sinai there was a promise in prophecy that God would give a law


“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭4:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

of course this happened through the disciples and great commission carrying the gospel to the world

“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭

He’s taught us his ways and sent forth the law from Jerusalem to all nations

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yes, "the law", as it pertains to Moses, could have at least three different applications:

1. That which Moses wrote in regard to the timeframe which PRECEDED the receiving of the 10 Commandments on Mt. Sinai.
2. Just the 10 Commandments themselves.
3. Writings of Moses apart from the 10 Commandments after they had been received.

With these things in mind, we need to really be careful to NOT make blanket statements like "the law has been abolished" without first clarifying exactly what we mean by "the law".

For example, Paul quoted one of the 10 Commandments (Exod. 20:12, Deut. 5:16) as doctrine to the Christian church at Ephesus:

Ephesians chapter 6

[1] Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
[2] Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise)
[3] That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

What's up with that?

I could easily show several other places in the New Testament where things which were written in "the law" of the Old Testament are presented to Christians as doctrine, so, again, we need to qualify exactly what parts of "the law" were abolished by rightly-divided scripture.

Focus to closely on Moses law and one could go Blind the the truth of the gospel because there is a veil of sin over the law

“And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


They aren’t for the same purpose the law can’t save a sinner it can only condemn them . There’s no part of the law that says “ repent and you won’t be put to death “ it’s just “ have no mercy on the sinner among you purge them from you have no pity “

you can search and find things that sound similar but the law has to be taken as one law all Together it can’t be changed so sin is always certain death under the law there’s no second chance for an adulterer but the gospel tells us to look at our own sins and be merciful rather than putting the sinners to death

quite different but not worth an argument

who said the law is abolished in a blanket statement ?

yea Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible and its refered Tomas the law by Paul . For example

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:21-22‬ ‭

so I agree there

I’m not sure I’ve said anything’s abolished however . I’ve said that baptism remits the law through Christs death for the baptized believer in him

Posted a more complete wuote but to sun up what Paul’s talking about the law so differently for

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you follow Paul’s argument he ties it to the law being removed through this process of death through baptism


“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held;

that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t think it’s controversial at all just plain doctrine Moses law being defined clearly as everything he wrote as commandment to the children of Israel in his book I’ll quote that later if you wish the covenant made at Sinai is what Paul’s talking about the commandments and ordinances Moses commanded Israel that law

I’m again not saying it’s abolished at all it remains on every unbaltized person in this world past present and future a Christian is who’s changed not the law it’s in Gods eyes as if we have died for our sins with Christ , so the law is concluded because a sinners last place under the law is thoer death for thier sin

the adulterer who got baptized has already been out to death for their sins so the law is finished with the person they died and the law was remitted for them through baptism into Christ






yes there’s the “ book of the law of Moses “
there’s the law of faith , the law of sin and death , the law of the spirit of life ect....

Sorry.

I didn't even read your whole post yet (I will later...rushed at the moment), but my comment about the law being abolished was NOT directed at you.

Instead, it was just a general comment for everyone.

In hindsight, I should have made that more clear.

My bad.

I'll read your response more thoroughly later.

Just wanted to apologize for any confusion I might have caused right now.

You need to be aware that the word "law" can be applied as follows:

1. To the whole Tanakh (Old Testament)
2. To just the first five books of the Bible (the Torah)
3. To the Law of Moses (the Old Covenant from Exodus to Deuteronomy)
4. To the Ten Commandments

So when David was praising "the law" he was praising the Word of God in Psalm 119, which is the whole Tanakh. Not the Law of Moses, which would only be temporary until the coming of Christ). The Law of Moses has been abolished, but the Ten Commandments remain within the Law of Christ.

On what scripture or principles of our Lord do you base that the 119th Psalm is prophetic of Jesus? It seems to me that psalm plainly states it is a guide to how to live as a saved person with Jesus in our heart. If God's law is abolished, we have no guide for how to live our saved, earthly life.

2 cor 3.13
the demands of the Law and of the Old Testament on the New Testament Christian are “abolished.” You do not have to keep the Ten Commandments to be saved.