The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

Yawn.... "early church views".
Thats it???
Are you aware that "historically" the first church viewed all end times through a distorted prism of a destroyed israel and scattered people?
Of course their view was a handicap to understanding.

Israel becoming a nation changed all end times perspective.

To perpetuate that view at this late hour is reckless.
We know they were off . i would have been also. That was the perfect incubator for a skewed view.
You cant really blame them, but certainly have our wits about us to see their folly.

"""WHO is in the flesh in the millenium"""


Tons of people. Millions who took the mark and we know a portion of Israel is ushered to safety.

That dynamic in my opinion is a minor detail.

"""ONly people who are pre-trib are some charismaniacs and baptists, along with a few KJVonly cultists and hyper dispies"""

The difference is i can back up my position.

You seem to center on non issues.

Take the " like manner" description of the rapture in acts1.

Care to show me how " like manner" applies to your position?

Remember the angels said " like manner"

Hi Hevosmies,

The pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is not the most recent and was not what the church Father's taught. The only way that anyone can claim a post tribulation gathering of the church, is by not believing that Jesus satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are events that, for the majority, will not be survivable. And even if the Lord was to leave the church on the earth during that time, it would not be a time and place that anyone would want to be. The world at that time will be in utter chaos! With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third of the earths population, respectively, will be killed during the first 3 1/2 years. And that is not counting trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. This time of God's wrath is not for the church, for we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. There would be absolutely no reason for the Lord to keep His church on the earth during the time of His wrath. Not to mention that the church is never mentioned throughout the entire narrative of God's wrath. God saved Noah and his family by having them make an Ark. Lot and his family was saved by removing them from the plain before destroying it. Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the whole earth, with no ark to get on and no small town to flee to, the church must then be removed from the earth according to the Lord's promise.

The people who usually claim a post-tribulation gathering of the church, have not realized the severity of destruction and fatalities the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will cause. They also pay no attention to the fact that Christ took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Everything is a legal process with God. That said, since Jesus satisfied God's wrath on behalf of all believers, then it has legally been taken care of, so that God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer in Christ.

The other problem is that, these same people do not recognize the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events, which take place at different times and for different reasons.

========================================================================
"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,

and by his wounds we are healed."
=======================================================================

The prophecy above is not to be taken casually! The peace punishment that brought us (believers) peace was on Him. Legally, another round of punishment is not required for those who believe, because it was already satisfied. And if you think that God is going to protect the church during that time, I challenge to find the word church anywhere after chapter 4 through 18. You won't find it! Yet, it is used 19 time throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then disappears from print. Coincidence? I think not, rather a scriptural clue for the studier of Revelation. The word is substituted with hagios/saints which is referring to the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are not the church, but are those who will become believers during the tribulation period.

Wow. Millions who took the mark huh? They get to chill in the millennium? Jesus destroys those people at His second coming.

What an epic fail.

Dont ever talk eschatology again, you arent even repping the pre-trib position correctly.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [IOW: Yo guys you get to chill with me in the millennium]
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

My last response to you........ the like manner is easy.

Jesus returns on the clouds again yes. Matthew 24:30

Here's what I've put in past posts:

Victorinus, in AD 270:

"Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last times when the church shall have gone out of the midst."

[end quoting Victorinus]


____________

That bolded phrase ^ is fairly obviously taken from 2Th2:7b where it says (per the Grk), "[the one restraining at present... UNTIL] out of the midst he be come [/come to be]. AND THEN [shall that Wicked be revealed... ]

...a plain SEQUENCE being stated here in this verse/verses ^ (and corresponding also with that which Rev3:10 states, and which 5:9 depicts... and corresponding with the "pre-trib" position)




(note: this ["be revealed"] is at the START of the 7 yrs, not at its middle, nor at its end;
IOW, the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time-period [1Th5:2-3], aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of those [plural 'BoBPs'] which Jesus had already referred to... aka EQUIVALENT of Seal #1--at the START of that [7-yr] time-period which Rev1:1 [/ 1:19c / 4:1] calls "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" )]"...


[recall also my recent posts pointing out the parallel language between this 2Th2:7b-8a passage and the wording in Lam2:3-4, which says, "[...] he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, [and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.]"<--in essence, lifting the "restraint" which held the enemy back, and letting 'em loose to unfold upon the world scene of THAT context (in Lam2)...]

It says the ac and his army.
Show me where every human on the planet dies.

Yes.
There are others.
That lie; "church fathers never believed in a pretrib rapture", has been debunked many times. I looked it up years ago. A flat out lie ....just to support a erroneous doctrine!!!!
Pure deception!!!!

Only a few straggler postribbers bother to go there.
They get owned by their own poorly researched nonsense on every front..

So poorly thought out.

They have a tough job. But to lie about the origination of doctrine????

No red flags???

A doctrine ROOTED IN LIES.
....and no red flags?????

We both believe that bro.

I love you, but you are kidding yourself by not going toe to toe with verses.

"""Dont ever talk eschatology again, you arent even repping the pre-trib position correctly."""

You ok?
Now you are threatening me???

Your deal has all the marks of a weak argument.

"""Dont ever talk eschatology again, you arent even repping the pre-trib position correctly."""

You ok?
Now you are threatening me???

Your deal has all the marks of a weak argument.
Do i need to post the verses???

You think because trump and biden wore socks and rode in af 1 they operate in " like manner"

There is nothing " like" in the picture of Jesus ascending and his return in power as a warrior of wrath , vengence, and fury, killing people with millions of horses blackening the sky.

You have to puroposefully misrepresent those 2 verses

No wonder you want me to disappear.

Sad bro.
Very sad.

I'm curious Absolutely. You seem to be knowledgeable regarding God's word, but can't understand why you continue to say that all of the great tribulation saints are killed, when there are scriptures which demonstrate the opposite . For example, you say that all of those great tribulation saints die, correct? How do you then interpret the following:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

Now, just in case you are going to make the sheep and the goats synonymous with the great white throne judgment, it isn't. The sheep and the goat judgment is part of the Olivet Discourse in regards to the end of the age. When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, this sheep and goat judgment will take place. The kingdom that the sheep will inherit is in reference to the millennial kingdom, as they will still be in their mortal bodies.

In Matt.24:31, we also have the angels going out and gathering the elect from the four corners of the earth, which will be the survivors of the great tribulation saints, who will make it through the entire tribulation period alive. It is these and the remnant of Israel who will still be in their mortal bodies and will repopulated the earth during the millennial kingdom.

Since all of the wicked are killed when the Lord returns to the earth and if the great tribulation saints who will not worship the beast, his image and will not receive his mark, are all killed, who then would be left alive to enter the millennial kingdom except for the remnant of Israel?

And what about those righteous of those nations who beat their swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks?

Signed: Curious

is that mat 25?
because the goats are thrown into the lake of fire.
so that is the gwtj.

also I do not think all the wicked are killed at the 2nd coming.

Hi absolutely,

Yes, the sheep and the goats are in Matt.25:31-46. They could possibly first be put into Hades and later into the lake of fire. But either way, that is where they will end up.

No wicked will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom. They will all be killed.

Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

When the Lord returns to the earth, as Matt.13 and 24:31 states, He will send out His angels and they will first gather all of the wicked first, these are the 'ones taken' group. They will be brought to where Jesus is and will be killed by that double edged sword which will proceed from His mouth and the birds that will have been gathered will gorge themselves on their flesh. This is supported by when Jesus said, "wherever the carcass is, there will the vultures (birds) be gathered, which is in reference to Revelation 19:17-18 where that angel calls all the birds together to eat the flesh of all of those kings, generals, their armies and all of those whom the angels will have gathered.

I would suggest reading Revelation 19:11-21 which is a detailed account of Jesus returning to the earth to end the age.

No wicked will enter into the millennial kingdom.

I believe also that they are because of 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Romans 2:8, Isaiah 1:28 etc

We also have the parable of the wheat and tares, because of these I believe the wicked are taken out, the Lord will not let them into the Kingdom.

Yes eventually at the gwtj.

I was talking during the mil

It could be you are correct.

it is vs 41 that says they get cast into the same lof as the devil


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: