50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Technically [/biblically], the word "RETURN" is used ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth [point-in-time; Rev19]:

--Lk12:36-37 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347] (this entire/fuller CONTEXT being parallel with Matt24:43-51); and

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" (when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with: "have thou authority over 10 CITIES" and "likewise... be thou over 5 CITIES"; this entire/fuller CONTEXT being parallel with Matt25:14-30)

These speak of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), at which He will be "VISIBLE [/MANIFEST]" (to "every eye" existing on the earth at that time)

This (His "VISIBLE" ascension, Acts 1 time-slot, some "40-days" LATER from His FIRST ascension ON "FIRSTFRUIT [/His Resurrection Day]"-Jn20:17 etc) indeed speaks regarding His "VISIBLE" RETURN to the earth (Rev19).



Pre-tribbers (such as myself) do not deny He will indeed "SO COME *in like manner* as ye [His disciples] have SEEN Him going [/traveling] into Heaven" (this speaks of His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 [not to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" point-in-time/of the chronology--when not "every eye" will SEE Him, ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will, TO WHOM "Rapture [/SNATCH UP / CAUGHT UP/-AWAY]" SOLELY pertains--i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"--And then/thereafter (FOLLOWING "our Rapture") those who will exist on the earth will be coming to TWO DISTINCT "beliefs," according to Scripture... in / during / within the future, specific, LIMITED time-period LEADING UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 (i.e. 2Th2:10-12 is telling of ONE of those TWO DISTINCT "beliefs" ppl will be coming to, in that time-period FOLLOWING our Rapture)])

Rev. 20:4 "And I saw thrones , and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, on in their hands; and they ruled and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Rev. 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they will priest of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years"

If one is not in the FIRST resurrection one will face the second death.
The FIRST resurrection includes the tribulation saints.
The FIRST resurrection must come after the "great tribulation" Jesus said must come.

1 Cor. 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed"

First means first. None before.
Last means last. None to follow.

The when and how is very easy to understand according to Scripture.
The only way to deny the truth presented in these verses is the twist, spin, and place a private interpretation on Scripture.

That does not mean that the whole Church = the Tribulation saints.

So here is how it works.

GOD'S "HARVEST" OF THE RIGHTEOUS IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION
1. CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS (fulfilled the Feast of First Fruits)
2. THEY THAT ARE CHRISTS AT HIS COMING (the Resurrection/Rapture)
3. THEN COMETH THE END (the Tribulation saints)

But every man in his own order: [1] Christ the firstfruits; afterward [2] they that are Christ's at his coming. [3] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:23-25)

"FIRST resurrection" speaks to "unto resurrection OF LIFE" (in contrast to "unto resurrection OF JUDGMENT/DAMNATION), Jn5:29.

However, we can see clearly that the "2W" will be resurrected [which means 'TO STAND AGAIN' after having died] at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" events, at a time-slot completely DISTINCT from when ALL OTHERS will be "resurrected"... and they clearly "ascended up into Heaven" in that text. People try to reason this away, just so they can cling to the idea that Rev20:5-6 is saying (instead) "this is the FIRST TIME anyone will be resurrected" (not. The "2W" clearly will have been, PRIOR to this point in the chronology... They are a part of "unto resurrection OF LIFE," rather than the other)

--Rev20:6 - "BLESSED and holy is the one having A PART in the resurrection, the first"

--1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] But EACH [<--a word meaning, "of more than two"] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" (giving indication there doesn't remain only ONE, at ONE point-in-time [and though I do agree the timing-issues relate in some measure to the various "harvests," I see it somewhat differently to that of how Neh6 explains it, in his Post #23, above mine--But YES, definitely MORE THAN ONE harvest, in nature and in scripture ])

The scripture is very clear, Jesus Christ is speaking to the (Future) church present on earth, that will witness the Great Tribulation and Second Coming, Clear, Simple, Easy To Understand

Has Jesus Christ Returned In The Clouds Of Heaven (NO)

The church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation, and be eyewitnesses to the second coming

(They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming)

(Lift Up Your Heads For Your Redemption Draweth Nigh)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Scripture clearly shows, your continued claim of multiple resurrections at different times is (False)

There Is "One" Future Resurrection Of "All", This Takes Place On "The Last Day" At The Time Of "Final Judgement"

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(The Last Day Resurrection)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

(The Last Day Judgement)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Lies Over Truth?

Dispensationalism Is The Big Lie!

Its Absurd to teach those seen in Luke 21 are anything but "Spirit Filled" Christian's, the Church on earth during the Great Tribulation, that will be eyewitnesses of the second coming.

Luke 21:14-19 & 25-28KJV
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

In your slew of words, you mention nothing about the "ARRIVAL of the man of sin" (its timing)... which is NOT at the same moment of his' being "consume with the spirit of his [Jesus'] mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation/appearing of his [Jesus'] presence [/parousia]" 2Th2:8a/b (both aspects being spoken of in this ONE VERSE).

In 2Th2, Paul is making the point in that CONTEXT that when "the DOTL" is present on the earth (its having "ARRIVED" to unfold upon the earth) SO WILL BE "the man of sin" (his "ARRIVAL [/ coming / presence / parousia]" - 2Th2:9a [/8a]);

In 1Th5:2-3, he already acknowledged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL" earthly time-period will "ARRIVE" like... the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" *of* the PLURAL "beginning of birth PANGS [PL]" that Jesus had already spoken of in His Olivet Discourse, which are parallel to the SEALS of Rev6, and which time-period Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] explicitly states is a time-period of events which are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (<--which phrase / time-period is also spoken of in Lk18:8 "avenge IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--all speaking of the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD--the future, specific, LIMITED time-period we call the "7-yr tribulation period," which is just the FIRST ASPECT OF the very long, earthly-located, time-period known as "the DOTL"... it STARTS [its ARRIVAL, is] at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (corresponding w/ Jesus' words re: SAME)]," not starting at a LATER point-in-time, in the chronology [like, at His Second Coming to the earth, or such... NO.])

BTW....the good doctor reaffirms that 2Thess 2 is indeed pre-trib.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

31. If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the departure come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

That would place the rapture mid or post tribulation since the anti-Christ has appeared before the return of Christ.

Jesus destroys the anti-Christ and his sidekick false prophet upon His second and only return.

I imagine this is where pre-tribbers try to force a third and sometimes even fourth coming of Christ in order to make the pre-trib rapture work.

The rapture is conclusively post-tribulation after taking all verses into account.

^ No, what #s 30 and 31 are saying is:

--the "man of sin" is REVEALED at the START of the trib

--and "THE Departure *FIRST*" (i.e. "our Rapture") comes PRIOR to THAT ^ (prior to "the man of sin be revealed")...


...therefore, PRE-trib Rapture is what is being conveyed in that text (2Th2:3-9a; this SEQUENCE repeated 3x in this context, and is the SAME SEQUENCE that 1Th4-5 also conveyed)



____________

3 "that day [the one from v.2] shall NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE [the event of v.1] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."

In Paul's TWO Thessalonians' epistles, "salvation" is "an ESCHATOLOGICAL salvation" (per context), as in, "the One DELIVERING us out-from THE WRATH COMING" 1Th1:10 (which is a very specific, future, LIMITED time-period unfolding UPON THE EARTH, leading UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth ["when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (Lk12:36 & context/parallel Matt24:43-51)... THEN the meal [G347], aka the earthly MK age, which follows that specific time-period involving "wrath" (just like there was also "wrath" in the 70ad events, per Lk21:23,20 / Matt22:7 [/Lk19:41-44])])

If I may, sir: I believe you misunderstood what he meant in point #1.

What he meant was that the first post-tribbers were the people in 2 Thess 2 who sent the false letter to them saying the day of the Lord is going on in their time.

I believe this is what he meant.

Just like I said. Twist, spin, private interpretation.
First does not really mean first and last does not really mean last according to Nehemiah.

How is it possible to reconcile II Thessalonians 2 with pre-trib? I mean, i know some pre-tribbers in the 1900's started arguing the apostacy was the rapture, but a lot of them think that is ridiculous. The typical pre-trib response is to assume pre-trib and read that idea into the passage-- insist that he that restrains must be the Holy Spirit or the church or something else that fits with pre-trib theory-- and act likes that proves the case--basically circular reasoning

Do you have any scripture to justify interpreting these as separate comings of Christ?

Context makes them clear.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I cut and pasted this into a notepad and there is still too much noise with the caps to read it easily. You really need to lay off on all the emphasis, which makes your posts scarcely readable. 'DOTL' for 'Day of the Lord' is not standard. It's like reading text messages from a teenager.

Anyhow, I do not see how you addressed the problem here. That wicked is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming. The Lord's coming happens at the rapture according to the 4th chapter of the previous epistle to the Thessalonians. If the man of sin is destroyed at the rapture, he cannot do anything during the tribulation.
Go ahead and make a relevant point. I am not seeing it. if you say the day of the Lord lasts for years, why would it make sense to say the coming of Jesus lasts seven years. That is a stretch unless you think He will actually be in the sky descending, visible for all to see, slowly coming down over a period of seven years.

Two 'parousia', comings, of Christ in scripture is not really a reasonable interpretation unless there is some scripture that teaches it. Trying to argue that the 'parousia' is a seven-year period of time is not reasonable given the meaning of the word, unless you mean that Jesus comes back in the clouds of heaven really slow, taking seven years to descend. And that is not that reasonable of an interpretation.

How so? Present your case. If I do not assume pre-trib how does the context make it clear?

That still doesn't prove pre-trib. Wrath is not a time period. Your theory still has the church in existence during a time period when God pours out His wrath.