Revelation 17:8

Well, if I weren't confused as all get out before reading this thread, I sure am now.......

In regard to who is giving them power, I ask you to consider the following:

"And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." (II Sam. 24:1)

"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel." (I Chron. 21:1)

Who "moved" or "provoked" David to number Israel?

The LORD, Satan, or both?

I believe that the correct answer to this question is both.

Satan can only do what God allows him to do, and I believe that we see clear-cut examples of the same in Job chapters 1 and 2 (and elsewhere in the Bible as well).

Anyhow, I think that this article does a pretty good job of explaining what I'm suggesting to you here:

https://answersingenesis.org/contra...ed-david-to-count-the-fighting-men-of-israel/

More in line with the topic at hand, I would ask you to consider the following:

Revelation chapter 13

[1] And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
[2] And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
[3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
[4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Here, we see that "the dragon" or Satan gives power to this "beast" with "ten horns".

However, later on in Revelation, in regard to this same "beast" with "ten horns", we read:

Revelation chapter 17

[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[15] And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
[16] And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
[17] For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Here, we see that it is GOD who puts it in the hearts of these "ten horns" to "give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of GOD shall be fulfilled".

It seems to me, once again, that Satan is only allowed to accomplish what God allows him to accomplish.

I hope that this effectively answers this particular part of your question.

Let me ask you a few questions first... In Daniel is there a women being carried by any of the beast Daniel saw? There is in the Revelation and the two descriptions of the beast seem similar in both Daniel and Revelation.

Well, if I weren't confused as all get out before reading this thread, I sure am now.......

Hy
I'm posting from my phone, so I need to be brief.

"The first beast" that John saw had "ten horns", right?
of time
Well, seeing how these "ten horns" or "ten kings" were yet FUTURE at the time of John's writing, then why is it hard for you to consider that "the first beast" itself was yet FUTURE too?

Revelation chapter 17

[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
[13] These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

In Matthew 24:3 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm they ask Jesus these three questions and many suppose they are asking about his second coming. Looking at the Gospels immediately after the Crucifixion it appears that the disciples/Apostles did not understand he was going to die,be buried and then rise from the grave so it wouldn't be likely that they were asking about it. When Jesus gave his answer at the O.D. do you think he mentioned the things that were sealed in the sealed scroll(Rev.5) before he was slain?

That's what made it catch my eye though because like you say the 10 kings/horns had received no kingdom as yet and so it's obvious the angel is meaning that at that very moment in time (when the Revelation was received) the ten horns were future from that point in time.

That though is not the only reference to time used by the angel he also says "one is" which is present tense from the angels point of view at the time he was explaining this to John. The angel also states that "five were" and is using the "one is" as a reference point of the time he was speaking of.

In the OP the reason I was asking if the beast in Revelation 17:8 had already received it's deadly wound prior to the angel explaining this to John is that the angel describes that beast as "was"(past tense),,"not is"(present tense). So from the angels point of view of time the beast in Revelation 17:8 had already existed but "not is"(no longer existed) but was in the abyss and was going to ascend from it in a time future tense.

I'm going to make a statement here matter-of-factly, and then I will back my assertion with plenty of scripture in the future if need be.

The "woman" who is figuratively sitting atop "the beast" in the book of Revelation is JERUSALEM.

This is so easily proven in several different ways, and, again, I will be happy to provide as much proof as is necessary in the future.

Seeing how I'm beyond confident that I can convincingly prove my assertion to you from rightly-divided scripture or by simply allowing the Bible to be its own interpreter, I'm going to reword your question to me:

"In Daniel, is JERUSALEM being carried by any of the beasts Daniel saw?"

You tell me.

Daniel chapter 9

[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel had been praying about HIS PEOPLE (the Jews) AND HIS HOLY CITY (Jerusalem), and the angel Gabriel was sent to him in regard to the same.

Gabriel told Daniel that "seventy weeks", or literally "seventy sevens", or seventy seven year periods of time (490 years) were "determined upon thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem)".

This 490 year timeframe was broken down into two separate parts with two different starting or trigger points:

1. "Seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks", or sixty-nine weeks, or sixty-nine seven year periods of time (483 years).

The starting point for these 483 years was "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem", and we have this date given to us in both scripture, and from a secular historian. At the end of this 483 year period of time, "Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself", and Jesus was literally crucified 483 years after the starting or trigger point that the angel Gabriel gave Daniel.

2. "One week" or one seven year period of time.

The starting point for these 7 years is from the time that he, the antichrist, in context, "confirms the covenant with many".

It is my understanding that out of the "confirmed covenant" will come a third Jewish temple, and what the angel Gabriel told Daniel makes this abundantly clear.

Again, "in the midst of the week he", the antichrist, "shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate", and "the sacrifice and the oblation" shall "cease" from being offered in the aforementioned third Jewish temple. Notice, too, what Gabriel told Daniel in regard to "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate" or what Jesus called "the abomination of desolation" in his Olivet Discourse:

Matthew chapter 24

[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Here, Jesus clearly gave another starting or trigger point in direct correlation to the "great tribulation", and that starting or trigger point is what the prophet Daniel wrote in relation to "the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place" or within the coming third Jewish temple. Before I quote what else Daniel wrote in relation to the same (we've already seen Dan. 9:27), please notice that Jesus was instructing his disciples "in Judaea" in relation to the same. "Judaea" is Judah. or the portion of land that the tribe of Judah inherited, and this includes JERUSALEM where both "the holy place" and "the abomination of desolation" will be found inside the coming Jewish temple.

Looking back to what Daniel said about "the abomination of desolation", we read:

"And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." (Dan. 11:31)

Again:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (Dan. 12:11)

It's the same exact scenario as what we previously read in Daniel 9:27.

The daily sacrifice shall be taken away in the midst of the week or at the midway point of this last 7 year period of time, and the sanctuary of strength or the holy place shall be polluted by "the abomination that maketh desolate" or "the abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of.

Anyhow, I said all of that to say this:

The woman in Revelation is JERUSALEM, and she will, figuratively-speaking, sit atop "the beast" in that she will enter into a last days covenant with the antichrist (the Vatican/the Papacy) out of which will come a rebuilt Jewish temple.

As I said in my response to @Runningman, Satan greatly desires the seat or the throne of David which has been long ordained for Christ, and he will get it, albeit for a very short period of time (3 1/2 years) in the person of the antichrist.

We see this same scenario in BOTH the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation which work together like hand and glove.

Hopefully, this makes sense.

Yep Jerusalem,,,many are going to argue about this(accept preterist/Amil. ect.) ...I am not preterist,I am not Amill.,,,I am not Dispensational ect.,,, I would say if you ask "I'm Christian" but if pressed as to a eschatological position I guess the best I could describe myself is Chillasm. Your not saying things that offend me because I don't have a camp to defend.

Did this beast receive it's deadly wound prior to the Revelation being given to John and it's writing according to the angel? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/17.htm

I'm sorry, but some of this is faulty thinking on your part.

Again, much of what the angel showed John was in regard to the FUTURE.

Going with my assertion for a moment that "the first beast" is indeed the Papacy/the Vatican, and realizing that the focus of the angel was "his deadly wound being healed", then why wouldn't the angel refer to the future timeframe before it's wound was healed as "was"?

In other words, it would have existed some time in the future prior to receiving its deadly wound (it was), then it received its deadly wound (was not), and then its deadly wound was healed (yet is).

Anyhow, here's the deal:

When it comes to the antichrist, as when it comes to Jesus Christ, we must look at ALL THE DESCRIPTORS that we're given in regard to the same, and THEY ALL must be a complete match.

This whole "deadly wound being healed" is but one such descriptor, and the rest all point directly to the Vatican/the Papacy as well.

I would suggest that instead of jumping all over the place, we stick to the other descriptors that we're given in scripture in relation to this "first beast" and see what we can determine from the same.

Whatever direction this thread takes, please recognize that the prophecy was/is about a "hill" recovering from a "deadly wound", and I've showed you from both scripture and recorded history exactly what that was/is referring to.

Again, the Vatican/the Papacy is "the eighth" HILL, in context, and it is of the seven.

No, the beast has not yet received his his deadly wound, as it will be a future event. The word mortal or deadly wound, means 'death stroke,' i.e. something that is not survivable, which is why the scripture states that when he survives it the inhabitants of the earth will be in awe of him. His surviving the deadly wound and the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will perform, will all be done for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the world in support of his claim of being God. Otherwise I would ask, 'has any event taken place where anyone is currently in awe of any man performing this?'

When you said Jerusalem you were closer to seeing who received the deadly wound and who was in the abyss when Revelation 17:8 was written. The difference is if it's a nation with a king that's a man like they ask for in 1 Samuel 8 or if it's the Jerusalem that descends down into the earth. If there's two and one of them the earth decided to make instead of waiting then one of them is blaspheming both Gods name and his tabernacle in heaven.

No, the beast has not yet received his his deadly wound, as it will be a future event. The word mortal or deadly wound, means 'death stroke,' i.e. something that is not survivable, which is why the scripture states that when he survives it the inhabitants of the earth will be in awe of him. His surviving the deadly wound and the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will perform, will all be done for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the world in support of his claim of being God. Otherwise I would ask, 'has any event taken place where anyone is currently in awe of any man performing this?'

Well in Revelation 13 it says the beast would blasphemy the name of God and the tabernacle. Ask yourself if you ever saw in history where a nation received a deadly wound by the sword in war and it's people were scattered throughout the world and then later the earth decided to give it it's life back and call it after Gods name.

I'll make one more post here, and then I'm done for the night.

Revelation chapter 13

[11] And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

This “another beast” (vs. 11) will work in close conjunction with “the first beast before him”, or “the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed” (vs. 12), or the Vatican/the Papacy in the last days. In fact, this “another beast” shall “cause all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads” in order that “no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name” (vss. 16-17).

“The number of his name”?

Yes, “the number of his name”.

In both the Hebrew and Greek languages, all the letters of the alphabet have numeric values attached to them. In the Latin language, which is the official language of the Papacy/the Vatican, only certain letters of the alphabet have numeric values attached to them, and we know them as “Roman numerals”.

Here are the letters from the Latin alphabet that have numeric values:

I = 1
V = 5
X = 10
L = 50
C = 100
D = 500
M = 1000

Is the number of the pope’s name 666?

You tell me.

The following question and answer appeared in the April 18, 1915 edition of “Our Sunday Visitor”.

Follow the link, and then click on the image, and it will enlarge and make it easier for you to read what is contained therein.

This question and answer appear to the left of the bicycle image:

http://www.remnantofgod.org/ppc/images/OSV1915.gif

I quote:

“What are the letters supposed to be in the Pope’s crown, and what do they signify, if anything?

The letters inscribed in the Pope’s mitre are these: Vicarius Filii Dei, which is the Latin for Vicar of the Son of God.”

If you know your Roman alphabet, then you know that the letter “v” was for a very long time used in the place of the letter “u”:

http://www.dictionary.com/e/theletteru/

In fact, you can see evidence of this at the base of this statue of Augustus Caesar:

View attachment 226701
That's not me next to the statue in the photo. It's just a picture that I found online.

Anyhow, please notice how his name is spelled “AVGVSTO” or how the letter “v” is used in place of the letter “u”.

With such being the case, the letters on the Pope’s mitre would read in the following manner:

VICARIVS FILII DEI

Well, let’s do some basic addition using Roman numerals, okay?

V = 5
I = 1
C = 100
A = 0
R = 0
I = 1
V = 5
S = 0

F = 0
I =1
L = 50
I = 1
I = 1

D = 500
E = 0
I = 1

Add it all together, and what do we get?

112 + 53 + 501 = 666

Coincidence?

Not at all.

Just the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and another indicator that the Papacy/the Vatican is “the first beast” (Rev. 13:12) or the antichrist kingdom of scripture.

Incidentally, did any of you happen to notice what time it was when “Francis” was elected as the new “pope”?

I did.

It was 7:06 p.m. or at 6:66 p.m.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H99YKYVmxb0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-WSPid6ryc

Again, this is no coincidence.

The prophecy is about a HILL, and not a man.

Well in Revelation 13 it says the beast would blasphemy the name of God and the tabernacle. Ask yourself if you ever saw in history where a nation received a deadly wound by the sword in war and it's people were scattered throughout the world and then later the earth decided to give it it's life back and call it after Gods name.