Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

Whether a new or old believer, describing the definition of where the word 'rapture' came from is not hard to understand.

Your error is the same false apologetic that has been going around for some time.

All the trials and tribulations that the apostles and first century church went though and is still going through which you mentioned above, Jesus said we would experience as a result of our faith in Him and which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, God's direct wrath is quickly coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The error is that people make is not recognizing the difference between these two.

Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. We are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. For Jesus rescues us from God's coming wrath. All wrath! In further support of this, when we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.

Therefore, the first century church till the present has been exposed to the trials and tribulations that come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. This not the wrath of God. It is the time of God's wrath on this earth that we are not appointed to sufffer.

Because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer and have been reconciled to God, we are not a pointed to suffer God's wrath. Therefore, the church must be 'caught up' (gathered) prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. The Lamb/Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and followed by the bowl judgments, which means that Jesus is the One responsible for their resulting fatalities and destruction.

Believers in the church must be changed and caught up prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

Again, all that you mentioned above is not the wrath of God. This coming wrath which will be carried out via three sets of seven judgements, which is a specific time set aside for God's direct wrath upon a Christ rejecting world which will take place like birth pains in conjunction with the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age. But before this, the Lord will come and remove His church and take us back to heaven to those places in the Father's house which He promised us in John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:16-17.

The other error that many make by claiming that the church is going to be on the earth during that time, is that they don't understand the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. With just the 4th seal and 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third) over have the earths population will have been killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. The seals, trumpets and bowls, as well as the plagues of the two witnesses, will be the fulfillment of the long prophesied 'Day of the Lord.'

I'm repeating this but, the apostles, the first century and all believers, have suffered at the hands of men and the powers of darkness because of their faith and not because of God's wrath.

When the Father says that it is time, the Son will descend to the atmosphere and with a voice like a trumpet will say "come up here! At that time, those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church right up until the resurrection, will rise in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those who are sill alive will be changed/transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up wit those who will have just resurrected. At that point the entire church will be present from beginning to end, where the Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house.

Believers being caught up does not happen at every generation, but will be a group event for those still alive when the resurrection takes place. The reason that the living will be transformed, is because they will still be alive and there cannot be resurrected. The word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means to stand up again in the same physical body. Since those living will still be in their bodies, they can't be resurrected and so their bodies will just be changed immortal and glorified on the spot and caught up.

The 144,000 represented by the Male Child, will also be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years. In addition, the two witnesses will also be resurrected in the middle of the seven years. After that, the saints who will have died during the great tribulation, will be resurrected after God's wrath has completed and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. All of these resurrections fall under the banner of the first resurrection.

When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels and they will first gather the wicked who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God and will bring them to the Lord to be killed with that double-edged sword that will proceed from His mouth, as described in Rev.19:15, 21. And the birds that the angel will have gathered, will gorge themselves on their bodies.

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), simple

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weekswere fulfilled.

Rev 14 has Jesus sitting on a cloud and harvesting ripe fruit from the earth during the trib.

You say the resurrection is after those living are gathered.

False.

1 thes 4 refutes the postrib resurrection.
The dead rise First.
This is about 5 times I explained it and you ignored it.

No such thing as a (Pre-Trib) rapture of the Church to heaven found in scripture as you claim, a teaching of (John N. Darby) from the Plymouth Brethren movement, and Adulterer (C.I. Scofield) in his 1909 reference bible

Throw in Dallas Theological Seminary Alumni

1. Adulterer (Hal Lindsey)

2. Sci-Fi Left Behind Series Author (Tim La Haye)

The Church will be present on earth during the great tribulation, and witness the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ in the heavens, just as Luke writes below (Fact)

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

wow lol I guess I’m one of those common knee jerk reaction folks who believes that God has always been telling the story about Jesus being born living teaching dying and being raised from the dead and then being taken up to Gods throne to rule his eternal
Kingdom

I gotta stick to What makes sense according to scripture , of belief is a
Knee jerk I’m betting my life
On it 😃[/quote]

All of those characteristics you mention about Jesus are true. It is what is written about the Male Child representing Jesus that is not correct.

I say 'knee-jerk' because they understand that the woman represents Israel and so they make the association of Him being born as an Israelite and therefore the male child. Many don't look any deeper than that. Jus fyi, I don't need to try to identify the male child, as I have already done my own personal studies. What I have told you is the truth. The Male child is a collective name representing the 144,000 Israelites who will believe that Jesus is their Messiah and who will come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, unbelieving Israel gives birth to a 144,000 believers in Christ.

As I previously posted, Jesus does not fit the criteria of being 'snatch up' but was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended. In opposition, the Male Child will be snatched up before the dragon/Satan can kill him.

If that is true, then you just proved the pre-trib doctrine to be false.

Ahh alright I guess sounds like scripture is unreliable for the “ commoner” and we need to look for someone who has some special interpretation of what it means rather than letting the scripture itself explain the rest of it ?

I think that’s why I’m searching for a denomination to get away from th at frame of thinking about chrostianoty and more towards this type of belief

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45-47‬ ‭

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5‬ ‭

“Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:69‬ ‭

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Old Testament your saying we need to understand is a foretelling of these things it’s what they weee talking about all
Along

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44, 46-47‬ ‭

the prophets were promising the gospel would come

“But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto youforetold)

Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:18-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the ot is about the nt and also how we got to where we need salvation through his death it’s all about the gospel it’s salvation to hear and believe the gospel of the kingdom of God that Jesus sent out to all people the same forever

Thats like saying the 144k are not firstfruits and false since Jesus is firstfruits.

the bible is NOT ONE DIMENSIONAL.

In fact by accepting rev 14 for truth, you just placed the resurrection BEFORE REV 14.

ahem, pretrib rapture.

thanks

Yet you just said it happens DURING the trib so that removes before the trib as a possibility.

The first resurrection does not mean 'only resurrection.' It is first in relation to the resurrection which takes place at the end of the thousand years. The first resurrection will take place in phases or stages:

* Jesus the first fruits - Already took place

* The Church at His appearing - Is about to take place

* The two witnesses - Takes place in the middle of the seven years

* The male child/144,000 - Takes place in the middle of the seven years

* The great tribulation saints - Takes place after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age

* There will also be a resurrection of the OT saints of Israel

The first resurrection made up in stages, are in opposition to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead which takes place at the end of the thousand years at the great white throne judgment. Those who take part in the first resurrection, the second death has not power over them. It is those who take part in the resurrection at the great white throne judgement that the second death has power over.

it seems like you are afraid to address what’s in scripture so I digress , we have done this about the rapture before and honestly I’m always going to believe scripture rather than someone teaching me not to believe scripture but instead trust them.

It seems to be your way of communicating our conversations are always the same I offer you scripture after scripture and then you don’t address a single one , then you sort of explain that you know but I don’t get it.

so I’m sort of spent on the rapture discussion with you you never ever have addressed anything I say lol it’s frustrating and I can see you are sort of immovable even with very plain scripture presented to you .

that’s in no way meant as an insult it could be that you have some special calling to explain things that aren’t there in scripture but I don’t follow at all your thought line on the rapture issue . But I’m not above another person or a pro so you know maybe I’m just a knee jerk guy without the special powers others have to go far beyond and even opposite scripture I’m not there yet still trying to learn the scripture first

to Me it’s simple Jesus is God , he knows about all this stuff

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭

I’m not then going to have someone quote a dictionary and change what I believe , why don’t you put together a Bible study about this brother but don’t just explain what you think show the scriptures that lead you there and let someone see if it leads them there also . Or did this understanding not come from scripture ?

it seems like some are very good students of theology books and seminary stidy Manuals but never actually confirm thier thoughts by seeming what the word says

Or ….. you and those who who haven't gained understanding of these truths yet, as well as new Christians, could begin studying the scriptures just like we all have and which is why we know this information and share it. After Paul wrote about the gathering of the church, he finished with "Therefore comfort each other with these words." Suffice to say, if the church were to first go through the wrath of God, we could not comfort each other with those words. Nor would that event be a blessed hope.

brother can I ask you do you see it as there’s like a ruling class in the church and everyone else should just follow what they tell them ? And not actually learn the scriptures themselves ?

I’d be glad to have someone share some good understanding with me one of the reasons I’m here , but frankly your ideas are not what the Bible teaches even very clearly to me I don’t make a rash judgement about you I see what your saying and then see what the Bible says and it’s not the same is my thing

if someone thinks they are a teacher brother they should be teaching the word of God not contrary ideas and claiming authority and some hiddenninderstanding that scripture can’t confirm this subject you and I keep having the same circle I don’t see the value of repeating the debate about the rapture

I’m a simple folk like a child really when Gods word makes things clear in my mind I sort of let that be my truth , if that’s not the right way I’ll go down with the ship but I’m not allowed spiritually to part from Jesus words he’s always going to be correct

I see you've decided to's depart from topic of conversation. Okay. But never forget the vast vast majority of the Bible was written by Hebrews. Should you seek to embrace the Hebrew mindset you're going to understand the Bible and its richness and fullness. But it certainly is not essential. For example the Gospel of Mark......many think written to a primarily gentile audience.

To be honest I still feel crippled by my gentile-ness. Sure wish I knew Hebrew. Actually I wish I knew Greek as well.

But more to the point.......The more you have Jewish a mindset the better you will understand the doctrine of the Rapture. And how it is patterned in the Old Testament in several places.

Hhhmmmm........Personally I would not choose to use ignorance as an excuse. But feel free if it is suitable to your needs.

there’s no distinction between Jew and gentile your idea is flawed what Jesus offered israel is exactly what he offers us until the end the gospel is our inclusion into the kingdom promosed all along

Jew and gentile are
No different to God

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the only frame of mind we need is christs and he was a Hebrew , not that that has any bearing at all . Because there’s no difference the only difference is Old Testament / New Testament two parts of one plan

it’s just a way to disregard scripture when we start explaining how one group has this gospel the other that gospel

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s who we are Now children of abrahams promise of all
People’s Jew and gentile one shepherd and one fold the church both Jew and gentile the only birth that matters is the new birth of the spirit

Absolutely correct. Daniel chapter 12:13 seems to indicate that the OT saints will be resurrected just after the end of the tribulation period.

This is just a diversion from what I have revealed to you. I gave you all the scriptures. So if you truly believe the scriptures, then you will be believe what I have presented because I got the information from them.

That is false! Anyone reading along with these posts can see that I answered every one of your questions. Please provide one question that you asked that I did not answer.

The only conclusion then, is that you are not reading my responses. CV5 agrees with what I have been telling you.

Are you ready? Here is the answer to what you posted above, so that you can't say that I didn't answer:

The above is from Matt.24:29-31, which is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millenial kingdom. This is not the event of the gathering of the church.

[/quote]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31[/quote]

Here again is my response to what you posted:

Once the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels and they will first gather the wicked. Those that are being gathered will be living people who will have made it through the entire wrath of God. This is not, I repeat, not the gathering of the church. Angels do not gather believers when the resurrection takes place and the living are changed.

There will be a group of Gentiles who will become believers after the gathering of the church and during the time of God's wrath, which are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The elder tells John that these are those who will have come out of the great tribulation. ‬ ‭

when people have no good argument , they begin to look for petty insults , then it just declines from there I’ve learned

You completely failed to apprehend the point that I was making.
And it was pertinent. Very much so.

Let me put it this way: A scholarly messianic Jew has a leg up on a gentile believer any day of the week. Like it or not believe it or not. We gentiles are grafted onto the olive tree Rom 11:24.
Never ever forget that.