Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

There is not one scripture in Gods holy words, that teach of a (Pre-Trib) rapture of the Church to heaven, not one

A false teaching of Plymouth Brethren (John N. Darby)

Promoted by Adulterer (C.I. Scofield) in his 1909 reference bible

Promoted by Adulterer (Hal Lindsey)

Promoted by Adulterer (John Hagee)

Promoted by (Left Behind Series) Science Fiction Author (Tim La Haye)

Does your explanation of receiving the glorified, resurrected body, happen to all believers at once?

You avoid God's words below "Why"?

There Is "One" Future Resurrection Of "All", This Takes Place On "The Last Day" At The Time Of "Final Judgement"

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

(The Last Day Resurrection)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(The Last Day Judgement)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Of course.

I haven't "parroted" anything. I HAVE quoted Scripture. Quite a lot, actually. And what you haven't yet quoted or even cited is ANY verse that teaches that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected saints back up to heaven.

Just pure speculation and construct.

OK, give me some "rapture verses" and I'll prove to you that NONE of them says that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected believers back up to heaven.

There is no magic here, my friend. The Scripture is very clear. All believers are "gathered together" (Matt 24, 1 Cor 15:23, 1 Thess 4) when Jesus comes back to earth at the SECOND (not third) Advent.

He doesn't come back TWICE, as pre-tribbers must argue.

How about yourself? I haven't been down any rabbit trails. Or omitted anything.

What YOU have omitted is ANY verse that teaches in a pre-trib rapture. Because there just aren't any.

As I said before, I don't bother with silly claims. But the fact remains that you have NO verses that support the "pre-trib rapture" theory.

Then why haven't you done that.

You keep claiming there will be a pre-trib rapture. But you haven't come close to providing any evidence for it.

Like I said, bring them ON! Then I'll point out that NONE of them include Jesus returning to heaven.

Anyone who denies there will be a rapture is an idiot. I don't deny that. What I deny, because Scripture doesn't teach it, is that Jesus will return to heaven with the raptured/resurrected believers.

And you still haven't proven it from Scripture.

Just repeating a claim doesn't make it "magically" true.

If you deny that the Millennial Reign doesn't "restore all things", then please explain WHEN that occurs.

Just get to the "restoration of all things" time.

Just get to the "restoration of all things" time.

You've got to be kidding!! How does 7 years of God's wrath (hell on earth" equal the "restoration of all things"???

ONLY when Jesus literally takes the throne during the Millennium can it be said that God is restoring all things.

It will look like Jesus Christ on the throne, with the faithful believers co-reigning with Him (Rom 8:17b, 2 Tim 2:12a).

Of course.

Nope.

Yes. The unbelievers who survive the Trib.

That's splitting hairs really. Our mortal bodies are already decaying & dying.
We will all be changed just as you've described.
It's a resurrection for all of us.

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Below is just a few places in the first chapter, where the Lord addresses Ezekiel as 'Son of man":

“Son of man,” He said to me, “stand up on your feet and I will speak to you.” 2And as He spoke to me, the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet, and I heard Him speaking to me.

3“Son of man,” He said to me, “I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me. To this very day they and their fathers have rebelled against Me. 4They are obstinate and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you are to say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’

5And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.

6But you, son of man, do not be afraid of them or their words. Do not be afraid, though briers and thorns surround you, and you dwell among scorpions. Do not be afraid of their words or dismayed by their presence, though they are a rebellious house. 7But speak My words to them, whether they listen or refuse to listen, for they are rebellious.

8And you, son of man, listen to what I tell you. Do not be rebellious like that rebellious house. Open your mouth and eat what I give you.”

==================================================================

Just fyi, Ezekiel is addressed by the Lord as 'Son of man' more than 80 times in the book of Ezekiel. And there are other prophets in scripture who are likewise addressed as 'Son of man'

I would also add, that we have angels described with rainbows above their heads and with the same description as Jesus in His glorified state. Let's look at the whole context:

=================================================================

14And I looked and saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was One like the Son of Man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.

15Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” 16So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

17Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

===================================================================================

Though there are many who interpret the one seated on the cloud as being Jesus because of the title "Son of Man," I am personally not convinced of this. As we saw in Ezekiel, he is addressed by the Lord as "Son of man" over 80 times. We also have the appearance of angels with the same description as Jesus in His glorified state. In the scripture above, we continually see the words "another angel" which would bring me to believe that the one seated on the cloud is another angel and not the Lord himself. In addition, I don't believe that an angel would have to tell the Lord when the harvest is ripe and when to swing his sickle. If anything, the Lord would be the One telling the angel to perform that.

In any case, from looking at the context above, I think that you will agree that the one who swings the second sickle is identified as an angel who comes out of the temple, addressed as "another angel." Therefore, rather than having the one on the cloud being the Lord swinging his sickle and then an angel swinging the second sickle, I believe that these two who swing their sickles are both angels. Regarding "Angels do not wear crowns" there is nothing in scripture that would support this. Consider the description of the following angel:

"Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head. His face was like the sun, and his legs were like pillars of fire."

Compare with the following description of Jesus with the angel above:

"The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters."

I am vary zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word, which is why I do not follow the crowd in regards to interpretations. By this, I am not saying that you are following the crowd. I see that you have done a lot of study yourself. I just need to know the truth of scripture for myself by what God reveals to me and not by what the vast majority believes or teaches. Anything that I personally have not come to a conclusion about, I put it in my spiritual cupboard until the Lord reveals it to me.

Some things in scripture are not always what they seem to be.

I recognize and appreciate your zealousness for the word of God

You have claimed Jesus Christ Will Return And Sit Physically Upon A Earthly Throne, With Living Faithful Humans That Have Survived The Tribulation?

Jesus Christ warned his believers against the teaching you promote and claim, Jesus Christ wont be found any place upon this earth amongst mortal humans.

"Beware Of The False Messiah, The Antichrist"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"!

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I'm not ignoring what you presented. I just don't believe that it means that Christ is restricted so that He can't perform anything else. By your claim, you are attempting to tie His hands. Acts 3:21 is not stating that Jesus is restricted to heaven so that He can't do anything else, which you are attempting to use for that purpose. By this, you are restricting the Lord, as though He was not able to descend into the atmosphere to call up His church, which is false. It is a conclusion built on error.

And in regards to Jesus taking believers back to heaven, I continue to refer you to John 14:1-3 which according to His promise, He went to prepare places for believers in the Father's house, which would be in heaven. And that He would come back to the earth to get us to take us to those place so that where He is, we may be also.

This event of coming to get His church, is speaking about resurrecting those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church, as well as transforming and catching up those who are still alive. At that point the entire church will be gathered together immortal and glorified, whom the Lord will take back to the Father's house. The scripture is not talking about those who die with their spirits going to heaven. He's talking about the resurrection and the living being changed, which is what all believers are looking forward to.

And based on scripture, I am not in agreement with your conclusion on this. By your interpretation, you have Jesus in time-out so that He is not allowed out of heaven. Furthermore, His descending to the atmosphere to gather the church does not infringe upon His being received into heaven, because after He gathers the church, He goes right back there with the entire group.

It is a false apologetic in order to circumvent the truth.


When Jesus comes down to the atmosphere, He will 'bring with Him' the spirits of all who have died in Him, where they will be reunited with their immortal and glorified resurrected bodies. Those who are still alive cannot be resurrected because they are still alive and in their bodies. Therefore, they will just be transformed on the spot and caught up with those who will have just resurrected.

Again, I will ask you; where is the verse that says Jesus resurrects/raptures all believers and then takes them back to heaven.

Click to expand...

I've already answered that several times, but you fail to believe it. I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3. They are both referring to the same event.

I've done all the studies, including the issues that you are bringing up and they don't bring me to your conclusions.

You claim that the church is going to be gathered at the same time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. The problem that I keep reminding you of, is that Christ has already experienced God's wrath on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. With just that reason alone the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. If you think that the church is going to go through God's wrath, I challenge you to provide the scripture that states this and to show me anywhere you find the word 'church' within chapters 6 through 18. You won't fine it! The word 'hagios' translated as 'Saints' is what you will find and church and saints are not used interchangeably. A distinction is being made in Revelation between the church and those who become believers after the church has been gathered. These are the saints who come out of the great tribulation. The church is not on the earth during that time, which among other reasons, is why you won't find the word 'church' after the end of chapter 3.

There Is "One" Future Resurrection Of "All", This Takes Place On "The Last Day" At The Time Of "Final Judgement"

(The Last Day Resurrection, Judgement)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

(The Last Day Resurrection)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

(The Last Day Judgement)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Scripture also states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father. So, do you believe that means that Jesus is restricted to sitting at the right hand of the Father, unable to go anywhere else?

Scripture also states that "The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it." Does that mean that He is going to turn believers into literal pillars that can never leave the temple? Of course not! Neither does Acts 3:21 mean that Jesus can't leave heaven to gather His church or perform anything else. He's God after all and He can do whatever He wants.

No, I didn't claim that. Read my response again please.

Since I didn't claim what you are questioning, let's continue.

What is your point here? Jesus is teaching that He doesn't return to earth until AFTER the tribulat8on (distress in v.29).

I never said anything about Christ being "restricted". And the verse doesn't say that. What it DOES say is that Jesus remains in heaven until the times of restoration.

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.
Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.
Good News Translation
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

I recognize that there are paraphrased translations here. But they simply recognize what the Greek word means; remain in heaven.

Bogus claim. Nothing of the sort. Simply recognizing what the Word says.

Please stop making up stuff. I never said "restricted" or that He "can't do anything else".

What the verse says is that Jesus will REMAIN in heaven until the times of restoration. Deal with it.

You are simply making up stuff. Stuff that I have NOT said.

Again, He was simply telling LIVING believers where they will go WHEN they die physically. This really isn't difficult to understand.

There is NOTHING in John 14:1-3 about the rapture.

You are free to come to your own conclusion. But I HAVE provided clear evidence that Jesus STAYS (not "restricted" as you imagine) in heaven until the times of the restoration.

Just more made up stuff. Quite an imagination. A "time-out". Really?? Your "interpretive" skills seem somewhat rusty.

Yeah it does. The verse SAYS He REMAINS in heaven, or that heaven KEEPS Him until the restoration of all things.

I've shown the fact.

Your claim in response is false, you have claimed Jesus Christ will return and sit upon a tangible throne, amongst mortal earthly humans

Post #506

Truth7t7: Jesus Christ Returned, With A Tangible Body, Sitting On A Tangible Throne?

Response FreeGrace2: Of course.

Truth7t7: Mortal Earthly Humans Present?

Response FreeGrace2: Yes. The unbelievers who survive the Trib.

Jesus Christ warned his believers against the teaching you promote and claim, Jesus Christ wont be found any place upon this earth amongst mortal humans.

"Beware Of The False Messiah, The Antichrist"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"!

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Everyone is free to their own understanding. But if I've presented a false claim, then please, by all means, prove that I have and show me where I'm wrong. And don't forget to provide clear Scriptural evidence for your own claims. That's how debates work. Or should.

Splitting hairs here. Both the dead and living believers will receive an immortal body, which is the SAME as that of the Lord's resurrected body.

I've already answered that several times, but you fail to believe it. I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a detailed account of John 14:1-3. They are both referring to the same event.

Click to expand...

OK, yes, they ARE referring to the same event. As do Matt 24, 2 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4. And it's all about the Second Coming of the Lord.

And, NONE of the passages mention a U-turn with Jesus returning to heaven. So why would anyone continue to believe what isn't stated in Scripture?

And the Second Coming verses are parallel to the rapture verses. Hm.

Are you insinuating that I haven't studied any of this? Are you kidding? I've given clear evidence for what I believe, unlike yourself.

You believe that Jesus makes a U-turn and returns to heaven when Acts 3:21 doesn't permit such a theory. And you have NO verses that say that Jesus raptures/resurrects all saints and then returns to heaven.

I have no power to change anyone's mind. Only the Word and the Holy Spirit can do that. I leave it up to Him and the Word.

What you miss is that "wrath" means anger, and God was angry with the Exodus generation and the result was that ALL of that first generation did NOT enter the land, including Moses himself. They were saved, per 1 Cor 10:1-5, but only Joshua and Caleb entered the land from the first generation.

God has promised ONLY His faithful children will not experience the wrath of the Tribulation. But God's same word promises that faithful believers will suffer persecution and be martyred. Rev 2:10, 3:10.

He doesn't. Read the verses.

I've already pointed out that the Second Coming passage (Matt 24) is parallel to 1 Cot 15:52 and 1 Thess 4, which are claimed to be pre-Trib rapture passages. They are the SAME EVENT. And Acts 3:21 says Jesus remains in heaven until the times of restoration.

No, what a foolish idea. But Acts 3:21 SAYS that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of the restoration. So you do the math.

And, btw, where is any verse that says Jesu takes all raptured/resurrected believers back to heaven? There aren't any. So a construct must be created to support such a notion.

Actually, Acts 3:21 DOES mean that Jesus WON'T leave heaven until the times of the restoration.

This isn't about "restricting" Jesus. It's simply about where Jesus will be UNTIL the times of the restoration.

I just love how some will "spice up" the views of those they disagree with to make their views look silly.

What is Jesus doing in heaven. He is advocating for those who belong to Him on earth. And He will do that until the times of the restoration.

Read Rev 20. And see it for yourself. Why do you not understand what "King of kings, and Lord of lords" means? Or why do you not take that literally?

Are you unaware of these verses?
Rom 15:12 - And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope.”
Rev 2:26-27
The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.
Rev 12:5 - She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne
Regv 19:15-16
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

These verses refute your notions.

OK, show me which post and which quote where I taught anything about "false Messiah's or the Antichrist".

How come you stop at v.27? Go to v.29 -30
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The bolded words refer to the Great Tribulation. And the red words refer to the rapture/resurrection. All at the end of the Trib,

No place in Revelation 20:1-6 is Jesus Christ seen, sitting on a earthly throne amongst mortal humans as you claim, the depiction is 100% in the Lords (Spiritual Realm) No Earthly Kingdom, No Earthly Throne, No Mortal Humans, (Fact)

(Rule Them With A Rod Of Iron) dosent mean sitting on a throne, amongst earthly humans as you suggest and claim

It means nothing more than the Lords (Destruction) of the wicked, as a potter destroys his clay vessels with a rod of iron (Fact)

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.