Do we have to love our enemies in order to be saved?

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Edify

Well-known member
#101
Jan 27, 2021
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#101
SoulSearcher said:
What if the person who has wronged you is demon possessed should you still love them?
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Absolutely. There's another scripture that confirms it.

A Warning against Favoritism

James2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Being a respecter of persons is showing favoritism. ANY TIME we put people in different catagories in our thinking we can show favoritism. Not forgiving one person while forgiving others is favoritism. I never said it would be easy to do so, but as long as we strive lawfully to do it, God will give us the grace to accomplish it.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#102
#102
Marcelo said:
That was God's plan to show humanity that we needed salvation by Jesus' blood.
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Gods plan was to have Jesus tell us how to obey a law we can’t fulfill. So we can know we need salvation?

this makes no sense
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#103
#103
Marcelo said:
Salvation by grace means you are not saved by your own merits. Of course a sufficient amount of holiness is necessary for salvation (adulterers, fornicators, liars, thieves, etc, will not enter heaven).

According to the Gospel of Grace we don't have to perform a long list of Mitzvot; all we have to do is to believe in Jesus; seek the presence of the Holy Spirit and follow the teachings of the apostles.
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So king david, and Abraham will not be in heaven?

that’s good to know?

and holiness (works) are required,but not as the law stated, so we have it easier but we still have to work?

is this what your saying?
 
Marcelo

Marcelo

Senior Member
#104
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
859
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#104
phil36 said:
Hi Marcello,

Thanks for your honesty. I already knew that you believed that but needed to hear it from yourself. And I am sure it is beneficial to others as well to see it in black and white so that no one is decieved. Of course by inference you would have to say Paul teaches a different gospel from Peter etc as well.

Marcello what you are believing is blasphemy. Now, I'm not sure if you know any different or if that is what you have just been taught. But I would give you some advice. Get to know Jesus, as from what I am hearing you don't actually know him or who is - that was evident in your answer when I asked you what is the gospel in post no.84.
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Hi, Phil,

I have to stop now and continue tomorrow. Please, take the time to read the text below; I think it is interesting.

Jesus vs. Paul

Introduction

Controversy has arisen regarding Jesus versus Paul as scholars debate the different emphases and messages of Jesus and Paul. 1 Jesus preached the kingdom of heaven. Paul did not. Paul preached justification by faith alone. Jesus did not. What are we to make of this? Can the two be reconciled? The answer depends on what is meant by reconciliation.

Let us be clear from the outset. The messages of Jesus and Paul were fundamentally different. Reconciliation of their messages cannot be done by harmonization. This is a fact we must accept. No one is helped by attempts to lessen the differences by declaring that the gospel is a salvation story for both Jesus and Paul. The differences remain.

No benefit comes from theological gibberish that the gospel is the kingdom and the kingdom is the gospel. No light comes from attempts to show that Paul “betrayed” Jesus or “perverted” His message. No benefit comes from those who maintain Jesus and Paul contradicted or disagreed with one another. Such offerings of strange fire move us further from the text and sound theology. Instead, we must seek a biblical understanding of the Scriptures for reconciliation.
Good News, Bad News

The good news is that this matter is receiving attention. For almost 2,000 years, Paul has been forced into the gospels and the gospels have been forced into Paul–and this continues. Some theologians have recognized problems in this but most fail to provide sound, biblical solutions to resolve the differences between Jesus and Paul.

The bad news is that most theological professionals misunderstand why we find differences between Jesus and Paul. Because of this, they lack a sound foundation to reconcile the differences. Here’s a clue: let the reader consider why God kept Paul separated from the Twelve after his conversion and why Paul’s contact with the Twelve was extremely limited (cf. Galatians 1.1, 11-12, 15-19). The purpose of this brief study is to answer the question about how Jesus and Paul can be reconciled (what that means) and end the confusion.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#105
#105
phil36 said:
Hi Marcello,

Thanks for your honesty. I already knew that you believed that but needed to hear it from yourself. And I am sure it is beneficial to others as well to see it in black and white so that no one is decieved. Of course by inference you would have to say Paul teaches a different gospel from Peter etc as well.

Marcello what you are believing is blasphemy. Now, I'm not sure if you know any different or if that is what you have just been taught. But I would give you some advice. Get to know Jesus, as from what I am hearing you don't actually know him or who is - that was evident in your answer when I asked you what is the gospel in post no.84.

Jesus is the Gospel. His life and death , resurrection and teachings is the good news. (Paul explains all this)

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
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As paul said if anyone teach a different gospel let them be damned
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#107
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#107
Marcelo said:
While on earth Jesus preached an improved version of the Old Testament -- He didn't preach the Gospel of Grace. A few years after He was taken up to heaven, He called Paul to be His spokesperson.

Paul's message was different and naturally he had to make clear that the new message had been revealed to him by the Lord Jesus, from heaven.
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I don't think Christ taught an 'improved" version of the old testament, I think Christ explained the old testament. God is eternal, with only one doctrine, not a better doctrine and a worse doctrine.

Christ's ministry was explained as a ministry of repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. Matt. 4:17. The meaning of this was forgiveness of our sin, (we repent and God forgives) so we may enter the kingdom of God. This is the gospel. If Paul's teaching is different from the teaching of Christ, who is God, then Paul is not of God, and Paul IS of God.
 
Marcelo

Marcelo

Senior Member
#108
Feb 4, 2016
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#108
I disagree with pastor David (below) on one point only: He calls red letter Christians "hypocrites". I think that the tendency to give priority to Jesus' words is normal; it has nothing to do with hypocrisy. I was myself a red letter Christian for almost 30 years.

All of my Christian friends disagree with me -- they believe the words spoken by Jesus on earth take precedence over the words of Paul (which were revealed to him by the risen Jesus). However, they don't give away their properties, they don't offer sacrifices, they don't give freely to all who ask of them, they don't refrain from laying up treasures on earth, etc.

When we accept that we are under a new covenant, things become clearer. For example: Why did Jesus tell the young rich ruler to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor? In my church the explanation is this: The young rich ruler had his possessions in his heart If his heart was not dominated by his riches he could have everything he wanted.

Wouldn't it be easier to teach that Jesus preached the perfection of the law to the ruler, and that nowadays we must be guided by the Holy Spirit?


 
OneFaith

OneFaith

Senior Member
#109
Sep 5, 2016
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369
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#109
Marcelo said:
Three decades ago a co-worker of mine was rendered paraplegic by a thief. A group of believers and myself went to her home to comfort her.

We talked about the brevity of life on earth and everlasting life in heaven, etc., but not long after that, one of our fellow believers bluntly asked the physically disabled girl: "Have you already forgiven the guy who did this to you?"

The girl got embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but the guy kept insisting that she should not only forgive, but also love the thief, and so he ruined the gathering.

The unpleasant event led me and some other guys to examine the Scripture to see if LOVING OUR ENEMIES is a requirement for salvation. We came to the conclusion that we must always do our best to love our enemies, but if we don't attain such perfection we don't lose salvation.

A pastor back then told us: "Jesus preached to the Jews and Paul preached to us (the Gentiles). To be saved we must follow the teachings of Paul and of other apostles (which are actually from Jesus) and don't have to obey ALL teachings that Jesus gave to the Jews because we are now under a new covenant.

What is your opinion about this?
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Even during them putting nails in His hands and feet, Jesus lovingly asked God to forgive them. It is a salvation issue because if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven. And even if we give all we have to the poor and surrender our body to flames being a martyr for God, yet have not love, we gain NOTHING- no salvation, no eternal life with God, nothing.

This man was not trying to ruin the party, he was looking out for her spiritual health. Revenge belongs to God, not to us- we must ALWAYS love and forgive. Talk about easier said then done, but it is not impossible. Practice; exercise your spiritual muscle by thinking of the minimal thing someone could do to you, up to the maximum thing someone could do to you. Then imagine forgiving them also. If you forgive, it does not mean they get away with it, it just means they have to deal with God’s wrath instead of yours.

I will never not forgive, not only because I don’t want to spend an eternity with such souls, but because I love my Father so much that I want to be with Him forever.
 
NOV25

NOV25

Well-known member
#110
Nov 23, 2019
995
390
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#110
Marcelo said:
Three decades ago a co-worker of mine was rendered paraplegic by a thief. A group of believers and myself went to her home to comfort her.

We talked about the brevity of life on earth and everlasting life in heaven, etc., but not long after that, one of our fellow believers bluntly asked the physically disabled girl: "Have you already forgiven the guy who did this to you?"

The girl got embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but the guy kept insisting that she should not only forgive, but also love the thief, and so he ruined the gathering.

The unpleasant event led me and some other guys to examine the Scripture to see if LOVING OUR ENEMIES is a requirement for salvation. We came to the conclusion that we must always do our best to love our enemies, but if we don't attain such perfection we don't lose salvation.

A pastor back then told us: "Jesus preached to the Jews and Paul preached to us (the Gentiles). To be saved we must follow the teachings of Paul and of other apostles (which are actually from Jesus) and don't have to obey ALL teachings that Jesus gave to the Jews because we are now under a new covenant.

What is your opinion about this?
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The only "requirement for salvation" is faith. There is no decision or deed one can perform to attain faith.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace: the divine influence upon the heart...
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#111
Dec 6, 2016
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#111
NOV25 said:
The only "requirement for salvation" is faith. There is no decision or deed one can perform to attain faith.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace: the divine influence upon the heart...
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What is the Lord's view of faith? Do you think it is possible to have faith in the lord, but not faith in His directions for living the righteousness He give us? If we have faith in the Lord, we listen to what the lord tells us and that is works. I don't think you can outlaw works as part of faith.

We know that our works are not what the Lord looks at for salvation, it is our faith. But our faith amounts to nothing if we don't have faith in all of the lord, in all He tells us. We are unable to achieve the perfection He gifts us with, on our own but faith includes wanting to achieve it, or as scripture tells us of repenting of our sin which is the same thing.
 
NOV25

NOV25

Well-known member
#112
Nov 23, 2019
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390
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#112
Blik said:
What is the Lord's view of faith? Do you think it is possible to have faith in the lord, but not faith in His directions for living the righteousness He give us? If we have faith in the Lord, we listen to what the lord tells us and that is works. I don't think you can outlaw works as part of faith.

We know that our works are not what the Lord looks at for salvation, it is our faith. But our faith amounts to nothing if we don't have faith in all of the lord, in all He tells us. We are unable to achieve the perfection He gifts us with, on our own but faith includes wanting to achieve it, or as scripture tells us of repenting of our sin which is the same thing.
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Im sorry, not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#113
Dec 6, 2016
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#113
NOV25 said:
Im sorry, not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
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Scripture states that it is only by faith we are saved, I am pointing out that faith in all Christ tells us includes works.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#114
#114
Blik said:
Scripture states that it is only by faith we are saved, I am pointing out that faith in all Christ tells us includes works.
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No one states otherwise. Why do you insist on thinking otherwise

faith does not make people perfect, it makes them perfected in Christ.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#115
Dec 6, 2016
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#115
eternally-gratefull said:
No one states otherwise. Why do you insist on thinking otherwise

faith does not make people perfect, it makes them perfected in Christ.
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I added to a post, now you are claiming it makes you clairvoyant. !!!!!!!
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#116
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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113
#116
Marcelo said:
Sorry, my answer was regarding the other 3 authors of books (synoptic gospels).

Answer: Yes, the apostle John taught a different gospel than Paul.
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You are correct, John, like Peter and the others, preached the gospel of the kingdom, which is first based on believing Jesus's identity as the Son of God, as he stated clearly in John 20:31.

The gospel of the kingdom also required law keeping on the part of Israel, which he talks about many times in 1 John, here are some examples.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

John never preached about the mystery of the Body of Christ, never preached Jews and gentiles being equal in the BOC, and justification by faith apart from works.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#117
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#117
phil36 said:
Hi Marcello,

Thanks for your honesty. I already knew that you believed that but needed to hear it from yourself. And I am sure it is beneficial to others as well to see it in black and white so that no one is decieved. Of course by inference you would have to say Paul teaches a different gospel from Peter etc as well.

Marcello what you are believing is blasphemy. Now, I'm not sure if you know any different or if that is what you have just been taught. But I would give you some advice. Get to know Jesus, as from what I am hearing you don't actually know him or who is - that was evident in your answer when I asked you what is the gospel in post no.84.

Jesus is the Gospel. His life and death , resurrection and teachings is the good news. (Paul explains all this)

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”
Click to expand...
John, like Peter and the others, preached the gospel of the kingdom, which is first based on believing Jesus's identity as the Son of God, as he stated clearly in John 20:31.

The gospel of the kingdom also required law keeping on the part of Israel, which he talks about many times in 1 John, here are some examples.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

John never preached about the mystery of the Body of Christ, never preached Jews and gentiles being equal in the BOC, and justification by faith apart from works.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#118
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#118
eternally-gratefull said:
As paul said if anyone teach a different gospel let them be damned
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People always apply this out of context. Paul was referring to the agreement made in the Jerusalem Council in Galatians 2:7-9.

The gospel of the uncircumcision was given to Paul and he was to preach that to the gentiles.

The gospel of the circumcision was given to the 12, including James, and they are to preach that to the little flock, as well as unbelieving Israel.

So yes, anyone that preach the gospel of the circumcision to the gentiles will be cursed. But Paul was not talking about the people involved in preaching to the little flock and Israel.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#119
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#119
Guojing said:
You are correct, John, like Peter and the others, preached the gospel of the kingdom, which is first based on believing Jesus's identity as the Son of God, as he stated clearly in John 20:31.

The gospel of the kingdom also required law keeping on the part of Israel, which he talks about many times in 1 John, here are some examples.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him

1 John 3:
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

John is urging Israel to abide in him in 1 John 2, what does he meant by abide? He explains in 1 John 3, those who sin not are the ones that abide in him.

So if one takes the mark of the beast, that is a clear indication of not abiding in him.

He will only be ashamed when Jesus finally returns at his 2nd coming for Israel. There will be no future salvation for him to expect, as John said in vs8, he is of the devil.

This is in-line with what is stated in Revelations 14:9-12.

John never preached about the mystery of the Body of Christ, never preached Jews and gentiles being equal in the BOC, and justification by faith apart from works.
Click to expand...
I don't think that scripture disagrees with scripture. John never taught that God gifts salvation according to our works. Paul states that salvation results in works.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#120
Jan 12, 2019
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#120
Blik said:
I don't think that scripture disagrees with scripture. John never taught that God gifts salvation according to our works. Paul states that salvation results in works.
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The gospel of the kingdom for Israel is about faith AND works, so yes, its not just works.
 
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