Back-loading Works into the Gospel:

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Chester

Chester

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ChosenbyHim said:
View attachment 223078



Back-loading Works into the Gospel:​


Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

The first two statements are made by a lot of preachers in Christendom, where as the last one is an actual requirement of Roman Catholicism. And obviously Roman Catholicism is not Christianity. Roman Catholicism is a false religion. But works based plans of salvation are not just presented in the cults and false religions out there, but are also preached within different sects and denominations within Christendom and what can be referred to as mainline Protestantism.

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”


This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.
Well, again, all Christians should do good works and continue in good works. But our works do not prove we are saved. For there are a lot of religious people out there who do good works, and yet they are lost. Catholics out there do good works (A lot of them stand up for the unborn outside of abortion mills), yet they are still lost. Mormons do good works, and a lot of them may live moral lives, yet they are still lost. False Jehovah’s witnesses, a lot of them do good works, and their women even dress very modestly, Yet though they are also Lost and unconverted. For they are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation, but our trusting in their works to save them. And the Mormons and False Jehovah’s witnesses both reject the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How a Christian can know they are saved is by the Holy Spirit within him bearing witness with his spirit that he is a child of God (Rom. 8:16), and also by simply believing the testimony and written record of the Holy Scripture (1 John 5:10-13).
We are not saved by our works, nor are we kept by our works. We are saved by Grace through Faith and that’s it. We are Saved by Grace through Faith alone in Christ Alone. Period.

No “Buts” and No “Ifs”

Salvation is entirely by grace through Faith. Plus Nothing and Minus Nothing.
Once again, every born again child of God Should do good works, and should bear fruit and we all should live a changed life. We all should get sin out of our lives, and walk in obedience unto God. And yet though, all these good things and good works which every child of God should be doing, is not what saves us, nor does it keep us saved. We ought to do good works and bring forth fruit unto God because we love God and because we are thankful and appreciate the great salvation which He hath given unto us.

Furthermore, if a man or woman repents toward God and places their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save them, then they are saved.
Whether that saved person does good works or not, whether that saved person serves God or not, whether that saved person grows in their faith or not, that person will be in Heaven when they die. Since their salvation is not based upon their service, performance, or their good works. But rather, their salvation is based solely upon Christ Jesus and Him alone. Jesus Christ did all the necessary work for our salvation to be complete. Jesus Christ’s blood atonement and finished work at Calvary is the only thing that can save us and get us to heaven.

The good works which we do, loving one another, serving in a local church, preaching the Gospel and doing evangelism, our separation from the world, the Holy Living and walk of obedience that we do will earn us rewards, crowns, millennial inheritance and the privilege to rule and reign with Christ during His earthly Reign in His Messianic Kingdom.

When a person gets saved, even though they should grow in grace, and although they should do good works and should live holy and soberly. However though, there is no guarantee that that saved person will live holy, since Christian growth is not automatic. That saved person may not do any good works, and he may not grow at all. That person may just remain carnal and a spiritual babe, sadly.

For Christian service, growing in grace, living holy, bearing good fruit, all these things deal with sanctification and the Christian life and walk, and all these good things are volitional. They are not automatic. Whether a Christian does these good works and lives holy, is up to him. He has to make that choice.

Therefore to conclude, We should serve God and live for Him with the right motive. In other words, we should serve our Lord Jesus Christ because we love Him, and want to glorify Him and His holy word. Hence, we should do all these good works for the very reason I just mentioned.

Nevertheless though, we are not saved by good works, Christian service, discipleship, denying ourselves, or any other good work. We are saved only by God’s grace. And it is God’s grace which saved us, and it is also God’s grace that keeps us saved.
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Whatever you want to say about front-loading or back-loading works into the gospel -- you may say whatever you want . . .

Salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works, but we are His workmanship.

The gospel is the good news of the life and death of Jesus Christ which makes available to us the power of the resurrection to live above sin and the blood of Jesus Christ which brings forgiveness of sins. Salvation is both forgiveness of sins and living in joyous victory above sins!

I am not afraid of works: I love working for God in His kingdom! It is not a negative, have-to thing! It is a privilege, an honor, a responsibility, and a joy!
 
Blik

Blik

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Chester said:
I am not afraid of works: I love working for God in His kingdom! It is not a negative, have-to thing! It is a privilege, an honor, a responsibility, and a joy!
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This is so very true. I love the beautiful 119th Psalm, the longest psalm and so beautiful, all about the wonders of works.

We are told over and over of the negative of works: they won't save, you must not add them to the gospel, they cause self-righteousness. We could also post all that psalm tells us about the beauty of works, it would also be true.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello ChosenbyHim, as Christians, our works (what we do/say/think) are evidence of saving faith because what we did/said/thought as unbelievers was so radically different from what we do/say/think now (as Christians). Likewise, if someone claims him/herself a believer, but nothing about them ever changes (in the direction of Christlikeness), then their "claim" of having become a believer should be considered to be nothing more than that!!
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Sir, our works are evidence to whether or not we are walking in the Spirit or not.

But they are not evidence of our salvation. Since we are not saved by our works. Therefore our works do not prove we are saved.



Deuteronomy said:
God has free will, but we know that He never chooses to sin (nor will we in Heaven). Why do you think that is

If someone claims to be a Christian, but he/she continues to "walk after the flesh"/never chooses to regularly "walk in the Spirit", then his/her claim that they have become a Christian should be regarded as nothing more than that (as they are CINO).

~Deut

CINO = Christian In Name Only
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If a Christian walks after the flesh, that is their choice and they will be chastened of the Lord. And their testimony will be shot also. But in order for a Christian to live a changed life, he must walk in the Spirit.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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#224
Chester said:
Whatever you want to say about front-loading or back-loading works into the gospel -- you may say whatever you want . . .


Salvation is by grace through faith, and not of works, but we are His workmanship.
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Yes, we are ordained unto good works that we SHOULD walk in them. The word ‘Should’ indicates volition on the Christian’s part.


Chester said:
The gospel is the good news of the life and death of Jesus Christ which makes available to us the power of the resurrection to live above sin and the blood of Jesus Christ which brings forgiveness of sins. Salvation is both forgiveness of sins and living in joyous victory above sins!

I am not afraid of works: I love working for God in His kingdom! It is not a negative, have-to thing! It is a privilege, an honor, a responsibility, and a joy!
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Well a Christian certainly CAN and SHOULD live above sin in this life, however though, he can only do that IF he walks in the Spirit and in the Scripture. For if a Christian walks after the flesh, that Christian will live like a sinner and an unbeliever. A Christian is capable of committing any sin out there. If a Christian walks in the flesh long enough, he could even get to a point where he denies the faith and turns from it, and goes off into the world and becomes a professing atheist. That is how bad it can get.

Salvation brings forgiveness and pardon for sins. And it brings reconciliation to God. And living in a victorious Christian life though, is not guaranteed. If a Christian wants to have salvation from the power of sin in this life, then he MUST walk in the Spirit, otherwise, he will not have power over it.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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tribesman said:
Keeping the law = believing the gospel.
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WRONG.

Keeping the law is a WORK. We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace through Faith.


Rom. 3:28 King James Version
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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throughfaith said:
The assumption is always that those who reject ' front loading ' and ' back loading ' that we want to live in carelessness and sin . That the motivation for ' right living ' has to come from fear .
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Absolutely, that is the case, sadly.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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mailmandan said:
Many false religions and cults set out to back-load works into the Gospel. Here are some examples of the end result of that below:

Saved by grace through faith and works.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by works/performance/commandment keeping.
Initially saved by grace through faith, then maintained by sinless perfection.
Salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. (Galatians 1:6-9)
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Absolutely sir, well said. You hit the nail on the head, as they say.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello ChosenbyHim, the only way that good works, etc., truly become part of our salvation, front-end or back-end, is when they are said to be a ~necessary~ part of our salvation, that doing them is a requirement, without which we cannot be saved. On the other hand, saying that a true Christian WILL change, WILL end up doing good works (because of the changes that have been wrought in them by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-9, 10) is very different than saying that he/she MUST do these things (as if doing them is some sort of requirement of their salvation).

True Christians act like unbelievers at times, and unbelievers can and do act like Christians at times/in part, but unbelievers hardly have the same regard for God, for sin, for the spiritual well-being of the lost, etc. IOW, in the end, the two groups can be distinguished by what they do, because unbelievers typically ACT like unbelievers, and 'true' Christians typically ACT like Christians.
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Well the issue is, sir, I cannot say that a Christian WILL live holy because by me saying they WILL do this or do that, I am essentially denying their free will. I don’t know whether a Christian will live holy or not. What I can say is this, a Christian SHOULD live Holy.


Now if someone wants to use the word ‘will’ or If I were to use that word “will” I could use it as long as I properly condition it. For example,

A Christian WILL live Holy IF he walks in the Spirit. See the difference? I properly conditioned it.


Deuteronomy said:
While this is certainly part of the evidence that bears out the claims of being a Christian, it is not enough evidence, in general. There are true Christians, who (of course) have the inner witness of the Spirit, who constantly question their salvation (for any number of reasons).

On the other hand, there are those who spend their entire lives in church claiming and truly believing themselves Christians who are deceived (one of the best examples of this is found in Matthew 7:22-23). I, for instance, was baptized as an infant and was raised (so to speak) in the church, and I always believed that I was really and truly a believer, until the day I actually become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday.


I've got no argument with any of that, but you seem to be arguing against yourself to a degree, against what you said earlier in this thread
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Where sir, have I contradicted myself??

That passage you referenced, Matt. 7:22-23, sadly a lot of false teachers wrest that passage to try to prove and teach a works based salvation.


Deuteronomy said:
True, which also makes the changed life/lifestyle that Christians choose to lead (rather than continuing in the sinful lifestyle that they used to lead), the good works that we do BECAUSE we love God, our abhorrence of and repentance from sin, etc., etc., some of the best evidence that we really and truly are who we claim to be, does it not

God bless you!

~Deut



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Well, I would say that living a clean and holy life is evidence that a Christian is walking in the Spirit, but not evidence of salvation. Because once again, since we were not saved by our works, how would our works prove that we are saved???

If we were saved by our works, then works could prove our salvation or be evidence of our salvation. But were not saved by our works, and so any good fruit we produce, or any good works we do after our salvation, is simply evidence of us abiding in Christ, walking with the Father and having Fellowship with Him. As well as it is evidence of Walking in the Spirit and the Scripture.
 
Blik

Blik

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ChosenbyHim said:
WRONG.

Keeping the law is a WORK. We are not saved by works, we are saved by Grace through Faith.


Rom. 3:28 King James Version
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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We are saved through grace. What does that have to do with works? We can ask to be saved because of our works, and we cannot have that. It is only through grace.

Are you concluding then, that we should not live with God in our hearts, or live as a result of our faith in Christ because that might be labeled as works, and you are against works because they don't save?
 
T

throughfaith

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ChosenbyHim said:
Well the issue is, sir, I cannot say that a Christian WILL live holy because by me saying they WILL do this or do that, I am essentially denying their free will. I don’t know whether a Christian will live holy or not. What I can say is this, a Christian SHOULD live Holy.


Now if someone wants to use the word ‘will’ or If I were to use that word “will” I could use it as long as I properly condition it. For example,

A Christian WILL live Holy IF he walks in the Spirit. See the difference? I properly conditioned it.





Where sir, have I contradicted myself??

That passage you referenced, Matt. 7:22-23, sadly a lot of false teachers wrest that passage to try to prove and teach a works based salvation.





Well, I would say that living a clean and holy life is evidence that a Christian is walking in the Spirit, but not evidence of salvation. Because once again, since we were not saved by our works, how would our works prove that we are saved???

If we were saved by our works, then works could prove our salvation or be evidence of our salvation. But were not saved by our works, and so any good fruit we produce, or any good works we do after our salvation, is simply evidence of us abiding in Christ, walking with the Father and having Fellowship with Him. As well as it is evidence of Walking in the Spirit and the Scripture.
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I would argue that Lordship salvation as taught also in Calvinism is potentially the most destructive . Because its subtle. On face value it professes 'security 'but ultimately its 'evidenced 'by works . I would say that its not so much what we do ,fruit wise, but rather what we preach and teach ..
Ezekiel 36 is talking about Israel in the future. The church is not 'caused to walk in Statues and keep his Judgments ect . Not is it said that we have a stony heart replaced by a fleshy one . Of course i can see if you squint your eye just right it kinda sounds right with the ' And I will put my spirit within you part . But its clearly talking about Israel. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye SHALL keep my judgments, and DO them.
28And ye shall DWELL in the LAND that I gave to YOUR FATHERS ;
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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throughfaith said:
I would argue that Lordship salvation as taught also in Calvinism is potentially the most destructive . Because its subtle. On face value it professes 'security 'but ultimately its 'evidenced 'by works . I would say that its not so much what we do ,fruit wise, but rather what we preach and teach ..
Ezekiel 36 is talking about Israel in the future. The church is not 'caused to walk in Statues and keep his Judgments ect . Not is it said that we have a stony heart replaced by a fleshy one . Of course i can see if you squint your eye just right it kinda sounds right with the ' And I will put my spirit within you part . But its clearly talking about Israel. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye SHALL keep my judgments, and DO them.
28And ye shall DWELL in the LAND that I gave to YOUR FATHERS ;
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Thanks brother for bringing up that passage in Ezekiel, it certainly is an interesting one. And as you mentioned, that passage is indeed Doctrinally for Israel. And I tend to believe that that Scripture will be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ, when all the remnant of Israel shall be saved.

And concerning your comment about Lordship Salvation, I would agree with you, that it is probably the most subtle and destructive teachings out there. As a lot of people have been put under bondage through it. And they do add works in a subtle way into the gospel, hence, they backload it. And will usually make statements like, well, we believe in salvation by grace through faith, but we believe in a faith that WORKS. Or... "True Faith WILL produce good Works"... and so forth.
 
ChosenbyHim

ChosenbyHim

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Blik said:
We are saved through grace. What does that have to do with works? We can ask to be saved because of our works, and we cannot have that. It is only through grace.

Are you concluding then, that we should not live with God in our hearts, or live as a result of our faith in Christ because that might be labeled as works, and you are against works because they don't save?
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I am not against holy living, Blik. What I am against, are those who teach if you are not living holy, you will not enter heaven. All Christians should obey God and all Christians should be holy. But even if they are not living holy, they will still go to Heaven. Since their salvation is based on what Jesus Christ did and accomplished at Calvary.
 
Blik

Blik

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ChosenbyHim said:
I am not against holy living, Blik. What I am against, are those who teach if you are not living holy, you will not enter heaven. All Christians should obey God and all Christians should be holy. But even if they are not living holy, they will still go to Heaven. Since their salvation is based on what Jesus Christ did and accomplished at Calvary.
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The problem of this is that we can't, of ourselves live holy, that is only done through Christ. You and my communication problem with that is whether we need to want to be holy.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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Deuteronomy said:
Hello ChosenbyHim, the only way that good works, etc., truly become part of our salvation, front-end or back-end, is when they are said to be a ~necessary~ part of our salvation, that doing them is a requirement, without which we cannot be saved. On the other hand, saying that a true Christian WILL change, WILL end up doing good works (because of the changes that have been wrought in them by God .. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8-9, 10) is very different than saying that he/she MUST do these things (as if doing them is some sort of requirement of their salvation).


True Christians act like unbelievers at times, and unbelievers can and do act like Christians at times/in part, but unbelievers hardly have the same regard for God, for sin, for the spiritual well-being of the lost, etc. IOW, in the end, the two groups can be distinguished by what they do, because unbelievers typically ACT like unbelievers, and 'true' Christians typically ACT like Christians.


While this is certainly part of the evidence that bears out the claims of being a Christian, it is not enough evidence, in general. There are true Christians, who (of course) have the inner witness of the Spirit, who constantly question their salvation (for any number of reasons).

On the other hand, there are those who spend their entire lives in church claiming and truly believing themselves Christians who are deceived (one of the best examples of this is found in Matthew 7:22-23). I, for instance, was baptized as an infant and was raised (so to speak) in the church, and I always believed that I was really and truly a believer, until the day I actually become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday.


I've got no argument with any of that, but you seem to be arguing against yourself to a degree, against what you said earlier in this thread ;)


True, which also makes the changed life/lifestyle that Christians choose to lead (rather than continuing in the sinful lifestyle that they used to lead), the good works that we do BECAUSE we love God, our abhorrence of and repentance from sin, etc., etc., some of the best evidence that we really and truly are who we claim to be, does it not :unsure:

God bless you!

~Deut

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I agree with your assessment. He seems to be arguing a matter of "how you say it". From my perspective he really seems to fear anyone saying to people that a true salvation will produce works. It's impossible for it not to. Where I do agree with him, and truly think this is more his point, even though I think he states it poorly (no offence at all, I don't mean this as an insult, just my opinion)
is that we do need to be very clear and careful not to put these generalized measurements or iron clad rules on what others should be. That our salvation is a very personal thing and it's between God and us. Each of us are drawn to Him in a unique way. I also agree that our discipleship, or sanctification as I'd call it, is just as customized to us. We each grow at our own rate, way and speed so we cannot create any kind of chart that everyone follows.

I had a very hard time disagreeing with anything he said at all, and ChosenbyHim, you wrote it well by the way, but there was this disconnect a bit I feel because for some reason He's feels that declaring that "salvation in Jesus Christ the TRUE and only living God, that resurrects your dead spirit and by His own blood, and His grace reconciles our spirit to His, opening our eyes and ears to the truth of what we were created to be, WILL produce works" with boldness. Why? It's the truth. Can you be transformed from the inside out by the REAL LIFE Creator of everything and not be changed? I do not have a problem with some of the quotes he condemned. However I again didn't find anything in his OP I disagreed with. It's clear the most he's comfortable with saying is "the believer should do works". I honestly have to ask why? I testify that after my God transformed me by His grace and power I can't he3lp but to proclaim His name in every conversation I can. I am not scared to (not suggesting he is scared) proclaim boldly, nor do I see any problems at all with shouting "If you are saved it WILL produce works". I just don't believe that automatically implies what
ChosenbyHim seems to feel it does, but want to add I honestly can't disagree with anything he pointed out in his OP. We do have to be careful in how we present these things to the seekers and prebeliever.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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Blik said:
The problem of this is that we can't, of ourselves live holy, that is only done through Christ. You and my communication problem with that is whether we need to want to be holy.
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Agreed completely but this has absolutely nothing to do with how having our eyes open to, and actually KNOWING, the Creator in truth and how that effects our priorities, habits, behaviors, the way we think about everything in the whole world, really beyond the "world/flesh". These very changes are what make us different now, that make us new, and I testify that when I was born again in truth one of the biggest changes in my nature was this new desire to please my Lord and do His will, not as a slave, but 100% as a willing servant with a "Please use me Lord, anything" attitude He blessed me with. My whole view turned from inward to out. Before it was what was the world doing to and for me, now by His grace and only by the power and guidance of His Holy Spirit I can actually live in a way that is pleasing to the Father, something impossible before Jesus paid my price, took my wrath from the Father, that He lay down His life for, willingly in love and in the Fathers will to glorify Him, the very weight of all sin crushed Him on the cross, and every time I meditate on this I end up weeping as hard as can match how much I know I don't deserve it. I am very fixed in the belief that declaring that only through Jesus, and that if you are born again it absolutely WILL produce works. If you think you're saved and there was no change at all in you then you truly need to go to God and His word and ask Him, seek Him and you will find Him and His glorious power will change you forever, without a doubt. That's what I proclaim in Jesus name.
 
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