Calvinists are preaching a false message .

New International Version
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

King James Bible
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

English Standard Version
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.


Hi throughfaith I don't know which part the ESV says something different?

Yes ' From ' ..Not before .

Like i said its an interesting study. One in which i would avoid making Doctrines out of . Names are blotted out . There arevmany books and many interesting ideas on all of this .

Hi throughfaith, I understand what you are saying.

"before the twins were BORN they were in the womb . Not before the universe began in eternity past. "

However -

The bible states that it was before this.. from the very foundation of the world (creation).

Which verse says this about the twins ?

I'm not sure as he didn't quote the verse and chapter. But rev 13.8 maybe also. Esv v Kjv for example .

The twins in the womb was your post.. I was just pointing out that Ahwatukee had addressed the point by giving Rev 13:8 as an example.. that we are in fact chosen by God from the foundation of creation itself.

Rev 13.8 doesn't say that . And chosen for what ?

oky doky I think we' ll have to agree to disagree my friend

Hello again!

Sorry about the delay. I work 3rd shift, so I was answering earlier when I had just gotten off work.

It is imperative that we address all related scriptures regarding any given issue, because they give us the full picture. One of the main errors regarding the differences in interpretations, is having only partial information or ignoring the information that does not support the belief that one has already adopted. All I'm doing is presenting the scriptures that present the whole picture. In this case, you have those who are claiming that all men can be saved. But the other scriptures support that it is by God's Sovereign choice that people are saved and that before the world began. We can only come to the conclusions that are provided by the scriptures as a whole. It is the same requirement for OSAS vs. faith, or the beliefs of pre, mid and post gathering of the church in relation to God's wrath, the belief in soul-sleep, annihilation vs eternal conscious punishment, etc., etc. Application of all related scriptures is necessary to arrive at a right conclusion on any given Biblical subject.

Regardless of the word 'From,' it puts their names as being written and not written at that time, which would be at least before the world even began. In other words, those who names were written in the book of life was done prior to or at the beginning of the foundation of the world. In any case, the writing of their names was predetermined.

Was the blotting out of their names predetermined also?

True! But the point that Paul is making is that, before either of them were born and had done nothing either good or bad, God's election was for Jacob and not Esau. This demonstrates God's Sovereign election. He continues on with the same point when he says that God raised up Pharaoh for the specific purpose of displaying His power to the nations. How many times did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Then Paul's point is:

"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort (to find favor with God), but on God’s mercy. He continues with "Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

Paul then writes about those who would reject the idea or say that it is unfair in regards to salvation being by God's choosing:

"One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Those chosen for salvation is from God, not man's doing. And those whom He chose to save throughout all of history, their names were written in the book of life before any of this began.

Because God is not into bondage to time. He knows who will win the Superbowl. Do you not believe that Jesus walked and talked in the

Old testament before he was born? Or that David Prophesied the crucifixion because the Lord allowed him to see it? David · Lived 1040 BC · 970 BC

Wouldn't foreknowledge make all of this kind of mootish?

Their sins were not predetermined. Sin entered the world through Adam and Eve and so all have sinned. It is God's choosing of those sinners throughout all of history that was predetermined. For we are guilty of sin and therefore death. But God chose to save some.

If I was to use your example above figuratively, all those in the boat would be worthy of drowning because of their sins. But God in His love saved some, the one's that He chose to save.

God would be justly vindicated if He let the entire world perish and that because we are all guilty of sin. But as I continue to make known, He saved those whom He chose throughout all of history.

It is God who in-births faith to the believer. It is God who gives us a repentant heart.

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Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One. - Ephesians 1:3-6

In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory. – Ephesians 1:11-12

And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified. – Romans 8:28-30

Yes, all those who would accept the Blood of His son as full payment for their sins.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I'll give you an example:

There are those who believe and teach that at the time of death, body soul and spirit sleep in the dust of the earth. They get this mainly by relying on Eccl.9:5. Yet we have many other scriptures that show the spirit/soul conscious and aware after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, such as:

* Lazarus and rich man

* Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus when He was transformed into His glorified state on the mount

* The conscious souls of those under the altar in heaven at the opening of the 5th seal

* Jesus promise to the thief who was crucified with Him, that he would be with Him in paradise that very same day

Where many who believe in soul-sleep, they cling to Eccl.9:5 while ignoring the above scriptures and many more.

So it is important to have all of the scriptural information regarding any given Biblical subject, God's Sovereign choice in saving election is just one of the issues.

Good point oyster67. Foreknowing is different from predetermining. God predetermined because He Knew the person.. predetermining is God acting definitively, and God definitively Knows (foreknows) His own. Foreknowledge as I think you are suggesting is that God only knew what actions a person would take..therefore God could not predetermine. Therefore this reasoning deprives God of His sovereignty.

Am i saying that God predetermines all thing? well in a sense yes. Some things are a definite determination other things God allows by His fiat.

God can sovereignly elect to give man a choice, and this is exactly what He chose to do.