The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1... concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, ...that Day will not come unless ... the man of sin is revealed, ... 4who ... exalts himself above all ... showing himself that he is God.

"Rapture" is not in Rev14 (nor Matt25), as that is not the Subject being covered in those passages.


[skipping Matt25 coz I've talked about it at length in this thread He's not marrying the PLURALS (not even FIVE OF THEM!!)]

Rev14... I've already mention (2 things)... 1) that "the 144,000" are "firstfruit" of the "WHEAT" harvest, i.e. the SECOND of TWO references to "firstfruit" mentioned in Lev23, namely in v.17 (Rev14:4), where it says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [that ain't US!!--*we* are not raptured AFTER the 144,000 exist on the earth, but PRIOR TO]; and whereas the "WHEAT" is harvested/threshed by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement), the earlier harvest is by means of "tossing up into the AIR" (completely DISTINCT "harvests"... not part 1 and part 2 of the SAME harvest, as you suggest; Rather, at wholly distinct TIME-FRAMES. ["a KIND of firstfruit" James 1:18])

Thus, 2) my suggestion in an earlier thread, to read BOTH CHPTS of Isaiah 34 and 35 VERY CAREFULLY (here, you will find my answer to "Rev14"--This is NOT a "RAPTURE" passage [neither Rev14 / Isa34-35], if you think it is)

"That day" in v.3a is speaking of the one v.2 was talking about... the one that liars were telling them (wrongly) that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]".

They were not telling them that "JESUS IS PRESENT."

You totally skipped back past and over v.2, to ascertain what v.3a is talking about (and what v.2 was talking about [thus v.3a also] was NOT the item of/in v.1 )

I'm telling you, the 7th trumpet is not the 'last trumpet.' And it is not my assessment. I gave the reasons for why the 7th trumpet cannot be the 'last trumpet,' and that because it would put the church through 2/3's of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer. In addition, there is nowhere in the context of the 7th trumpet that mentions the gathering of the church, but you're going falsely interpret it as taking place at that time. What is it that people always misapply theses scriptures, but then they ignore the fact that Jesus already satisfied God's wrath?

My suggestion to you, is to do a study on 'The Day of the Lord' which is represented by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And do an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be God's direct, unprecedented wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth. Ask yourself the question, 'If we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath because Jesus already did, then why would God still put us through His wrath anyway?' Since God is a man of His word, will He ignore that His wrath has been satisfied and punish those who believe in His Son anyway?

That is a false assessment! And I have said this to many before you, as long as you continue to make these assumptions, you will always be in error regarding end-time events. And regarding 'taking another look' I have already been doing that for over 45 years. I live in the book of Revelation. I have gone over this information more times than I can count.

You and others grab ahold of certain scriptures while ignoring others, using only what you need to make your conclusions and that with only partial information.

I thank God that I am not going to go through the seals and the trumpet judgments of wrath, because My Lord already experienced God's wrath on my behalf. I certainly would not want to be on the earth when the Lord has those demonic beings released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of a scorpion, where only the 144,000 are exempt.

I'm thankful that that I am not going to be here when a third of the earth and the trees are burned up, for there will be a great number of fatalities resulting from that.

I'm thankful that I am not going to be on the earth when those four angels are released to kill a third of what is left of the inhabitants of the earth with their demonic army of 200 million!

These are just a few of the events of wrath that you have believers in Christ going through.

After Paul gave his detailed description of the church being changed and caught up, he said, "therefore, comfort each other with these words." If believers in Christ were to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there would be no comforting one another. In fact, by your teaching you're doing the opposite of comforting. Think about it!

In John 14:1-3, Jesus said 'Don't let your hearts be troubled and promised to go and prepare places for us at His Father's house and that He was going to come back to get us and take us there. If those of us who believe in Christ were to go through the seals and the trumpets, Jesus words for us to be comforted would empty words, because our hearts would be troubled.

Because of your interpretation, you would have God punishing the righteous with the wicked. And if you are going to say that God will protect the church during that time, I would remind you that the church is no longer mentioned after the end of chapter 3, yet in chapters 1 thru 3 it was used 19 times. The church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath.

You people who interpret and teach the false teaching of the church going through God's wrath, are not comforting believers at all, nor are you making it out to be a blessed hope, but something to greatly dread. By your teaching, you are looking for God's wrath to come first, instead of the imminent appearing of our Lord to gather His church. After all, according to your own teaching, the church isn't gathered until the 7th trumpet is sounded, which would mean that the church would have to go through all seven seals and seven trumpets.

You shouldn't be teaching on end-time events, because you don't understand it. Instead, you are just repeating the false teachings of men that have come into the world.

For all of you reading this and you new Christians, be assured that the Lord is not going punish His bride/church before He comes to take her to the Father's house. For scripture states that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer. We have been reconciled to God, which means that we were brought back into a right relationship with God, from enmity to friendship. Therefore, just as Paul said, I say the same thing regarding our being gathered: Comfort each other knowing that you will be gathered prior to when God's wrath is poured out upon the earth. Paul in writing to Titus referred to the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him as 'the blessed hope.' Consequently, if believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, it would be no blessed hope.

Correct. People stumble over this again and again simply because of the word "trumpet".

THE TRUMPET WHICH SUMMONS THE SAINTS TO HEAVEN
THE LAST TRUMP = THE TRUMP OF GOD

THE TRUMPET WHICH HERALDS GOD'S WRATH ON THE UNGODLY
THE SEVENTH TRUMPET OF THE SEVENTH SEAL
The seventh trumpet announces the outpouring of the 7 vials of God's wrath.

There is nothing in common between these two trumpets, and their sounding is separated by a period of at least seven years.

""Rapture" is not in Rev14 (nor Matt25), as that is not the Subject being covered in those passages.""

Rev 14 is not the rapture and I never said it was.

But mat 25???

So vivid a picture of the bride being gathered.
So vivid and unmistakable.

Yet you reframe it

Sad.

Yep
It is like they never read their 7th trump deal.

Amen
Good verse

But you need to include the key verses I posted.

Most of what you use for powerpoints are agreed by both sides.

Note in your verse of 2 thes.
It says "REVEALED".

Revealed is a dynamic that could be months before the world ever knows what hit them.
Revealed could come before power.

But I am pretrib and actually believe he TAKES POWER,rounds us up (millions of us) and we see huge open air holding facilities..
Complete with postribs sneering "where is your stupid pretrib darby escape baloney"

Then it happens...the glorious rapture,right before them. A glorious light like a sunrise. His bright awesome coming.

The mockers miss it of course. They stay to face the mark and hopefully refuse it.

Never,ever believed that or said it was.

I can just read it and see what it is. I do not need it to fit or say anything that is not OBVIOUSLY there.
Dont need any additives or dilutants.

It is simply a harvest AFTER 144K FIRSTFRUITS.

so simple.

So obvious.

Jesus sitting on a cloud. With a SICKLE. Harvests ripe fruit. During the gt.

144k jews harvested as FIRSTFRUIT JEWS TO HEAVEN. Then main harvest of jews.
FOR the wedding supper as depicted in the parable of the wedding guests.

So you now see the several raptures. (Which you earlier denied)

There is zero in there that "they come to faith after the rapture"
You arbitrarily inserted that.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

That is the rapture that you need it to say something else.

As for night time????
Really????

You really believe he can not come at night????

Everything in the Olivet Discourse [except for Lk21:12-24 about the 70ad events] is "far-future" and "future" to our Rapture.

Matt24:4-8 and Mk13:5-8 start out with "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" which are parallel/equivalent to the SEALS of Rev6 (we're already UP IN Heaven BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened by Jesus--Rev5:9 has the 24 elders saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," and has similar wording to what we read in Rev1:5-6).

The Rapture happens PRIOR TO SEAL #1 (which is the EQUIVALENT of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 G5100 - tis - "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception; 1Th5:2-3 ("singular")]" aka the rider on the white horse with a BOW ['bow' often meaning 'DECEPTION' in OT Scriptures] at the START of the Trib, aka at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD which unfolds upon the earth starting with JUDGMENTS]"... and 2Th2:3-8a,9a is saying that "the DOTL" will be present to unfold upon the earth only when "the man of sin" is also present [to do all he will do over the course of those 7 "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" years, i.e. THE TRIB ("whose COMING [/arrival/advent/presence/parousia]" is after the working of Satan..." v.9a... where v.9a=Dan9:27a[26b 'prince THAT SHALL COME'] "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"--it is THIS ASPECT *OF* the very long earthly-located TIME-PERIOD known as "the DOTL" that we're talking about here... not a literal 12-hr nighttime... see.] )

See the above.

"The DOTL's *ARRIVAL*" (i.e. the TRIB STARTING [SEAL #1 INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at its ARRIVAL]) comes prior to HE HIMSELF "returning" to the earth at Rev19.



So... you also believe our Rapture occurs PRIOR TO the Trib, right??

That's what I'm saying.

The TRIB is the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period, and the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (with the SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS--7-yrs'-worth)

You have poor exegesis and have no business telling people about the end times. Case in point, you believe in and teach the blatantly unscriptural doctrine of pre-tribulation rapture. Pretty hard to take anything you say with any degree of credibility since your foundation of scriptural knowledge is so shaky.

My suggestion to you is to learn about the post-tribulation rapture because you clearly aren't understanding something.

I'll show you one more time then I'll leave you to your own devices:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Revelation 11:15-19

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When does the resurrection of the dead occur? The last day.

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:44
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Judgement after resurrection:

Revelation 11:11-13
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I think what you aren't liking is that so much of the the prophecy of the return of Christ, the resurrection, the rapture, the judgement occur on the last day with the final trumpet. In pre-tribulatiob rapture theory all of this is thrown out the window because it doesn't mean with your narrative of it occuring after the tribulation.

Time periods are also different with God. When the Bible says "the last day" or "the hour has come" it doesn't always mean literally. The final trumpet in Revelation seems to occur in the middle of the great tribulation at least, but we know Christ does not return until absolutely after the GT, at the end of the world when Jesus returns:

2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I have asked you several times to unpack a few verses.

All you do is postrib well known talking points then go personal with some shots at me (while unable to address the rapture verses.)

One more time
Here are the verses:

(I totally understand if you are unprepared to respond)

Acts1
Mat 25, 10 virgins
Mat 24 (noah before the flood with no post flood removal)
Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife in heaven,how did she get there?
Rev 14 (you guys have the vf dead in Christ raised AFTER the gathering.

Then all the rapture verses that not a single one matches the 2nd coming on white horses in power and killing.

Maybe you can pick one.

Maybe one????

My point is you exclude Jesus BEING ABLE to come at night since you have EXCLUDED the possibility that midnight is simply night time and is not some metaphor for dark times.

But I can see your need for it since the rapture in mat 25 has been reworked by you.

I find that rediculous.