If YESUAH says that the wicked is gather FIRST, WHY ARE some people looking for a rapture,??? Who does the say was taken in the flood.???

THEY was just in the ARK , HOW was THAT gathered, They when on their on accord, they was not gather,
The ark was like being in CHRIST, THE SAME for those this time to

The phrase "but gather the wheat into My barn" corresponds with the following two passages (quoted in part):

" 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud [/GREAT] trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "


[...corresponding with...]


"12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.





[IOW, Matt13 is not speaking of "our Rapture" time-slot, but of His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (just as is Matt24-25)]

I don't think so. This is WHEAT, and this is the KINGDOM of Heaven. Our Lord Jesus is the Sower. He is the Grain of Wheat that brings forth many grains (Jn.12:24), and that constitutes the Church because the many grains were IN Him. To be in the Kingdom of Heaven one needs rebirth. Matthew 24:31 concerns those who were dispersed to the four winds - Israel (Jeremiah 49:36, Ezekiel 37:9, Zechariah 2:6). Israel are not part of the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt.21:43).

I was replying to your statement that the evil are always judged first. In Noah's case, Noah was called to th safety of the Ark FIRST.

you know how you are using this to prove a pre tribulation rapture ?

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how does this support a rapture beforehand if oauksntesching the church that there are those who have died beforehand and those who will remain until the end when he returns ?

do you see how this verse your using doesn’t at all support the church isn’t on earth but that they for sure are still on earth that day and those who had already died would be coming back with him that day ?

what about these verses you are using tells you the church is gone from earth before the tribulation ? And. It immediately after it ends ?

the day Paul’s talking about is this same day Jesus was talking about

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

at what point was the church gathered before this day ? And why is Paul preparing the church for this day ? Why is he explaining that people who die before that day in the lord will have thier bodies raised up that day and others will be changed and caught up into the air with them that day of the church is not on earth that day ?

do you think Jesus is going to make several return trips to earth ?

thee are the verses you are using to support a pre trib rapture the one from Thessalonians and this one

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is explaining when he comes whoever is left will be gathered with those who died beforehand in him . But he is not going to return until the end When everyone will be tethered together those from 2000 years ago and those who are alive the day he returns .

there’s just one day we’re looking for the Return of the king . Who will
Indeed return and gather us into his fathers house and sadly those who are left have a home also

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49-50‬ ‭

The just is going to be the church justified by Christ and the wicked are thier who refuse the gospel

The time period is from the day he left into heaven until the day he returns to usher in the eternal things of Gods house

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those things that are soon to come to pass

[note: it is this last line (which I have enlarged ^ ) with which I disagree... though it is a very common notion... please allow me to *try* to explain...]

Recall my saying that I believe the "144,000" are "firstfruit" (Rev14:4) of the "WHEAT harvest" (per the parallel I see between the wording in Rev14:4 to that of the SECOND of TWO mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23... that being in v.17... where it [speaking of the WHEAT harvest] says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN")--I believe this refers to the time-slot surrounding His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"), but I don't really want to get into ALL the reasoning FOR THAT (esp. re: "harvesting METHODS" between the two), but just to address the one point I've enlarged in your quote at top ^ . Again, I disagree, and here's why:

This requires a "two-post response" (my apologies for the length = D ):

It's very easy to get mixed up, here.


When viewing the "fig tree parables,"
first, bear in mind that (in these parables) the "fig tree" and "[had a fig tree PLANTED IN] his vineyard" are distinct things (though related/connected)...


...and secondly, that Scripture itself defines the latter (of those two distinct items) ^ , thusly: "for THE VINEYARD of the Lord of hosts IS THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL..." (Isaiah 5:7)...

...thirdly, bear in mind the SEQUENCE issues I've pointed out about the Matt22:7-then-8 passage, where v.7 speaks of the "70ad events" (just like Lk21:23,20 [in the 70ad-section of the Olivet Discourse: Lk21:12-24a]) AND Lk19:41-44 (what Jesus SAID on the very day the 69-Wks Total were concluded, on Palm Sunday [He's speaking of the 70ad events--just like Matt22:7 refers to])... and then v.8 (Matt22) goes on to speak of what comes AFTER [after the 70ad-events], when it says, "THEN SAITH HE to his servants"


... meaning, that which necessarily comes AFTER the 70ad events ("THEN SAITH he to his servants")... and note that Jesus has been in Heaven since 32ad/His resurrection/ascension/exaltation (at the "after 70ad-events" point in the chronology)... and so THAT is:

what He disclosed via (v.1)
--"[The] Revelation [LATER, in 95ad] of Jesus Christ,
--WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus]
--TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see Rev7:3! (the "144,000 servants of our God"--at the very least, those... [whereas vv.9,14 of Rev7 show the EFFECTS of their "servant-ings" ])]
--things which must come to pass [<--comp. 1:19c and 4:1, the FUTURE aspects of the Book]
--IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]..."

(noting: "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" referring to the future, specific, limited time-period we commonly call "the tribulation period / the '7 years' / the '70th Week' / the '2520 days [total]' / the 'seals/trumpets/vials' / the 'IN THE NIGHT' aspect OF the entire long "DOTL time-period [its ARRIVAL + first 7-yrs]"--i.e. THE TRIB yrs. IOW, THIS is what verse 8 [Matt22] is going on to speak of! ['far-future' to the 70ad events of v.7... and STILL involving "Israel" (i.e. the 144,000, among others OF them) as the "servants" (of the specific time-period being addressed)])

IN VIEW of all that ^ (that "THE VINEYARD" *IS* the "HOUSE OF ISRAEL"... in these parables, INCLUDING what we read in this Matt21 passage... which is the same chpt as the Matt21:43-45 section under discussion, at present)... in view of all of the above,
PLEASE CONSIDER the following:


[quoting Gaebelein - Matthew 21 commentary, BibleHub]

"The question had been asked by the King, “what will the Lord do to those husbandmen?” It is for them to answer and their answer must be their own verdict. Will they dare and give Him an answer? So blinded were they that they did indeed. “They said unto Him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard to other husbandmen, who will render to him the fruits in their season.” Well said! And what they had spoken to their own condemnation came upon these wicked husbandmen.

"And now the Lord continues quoting from the Book of Psalms: “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord’s doing and it is marvellous in our eyes” (Matthew 21:42). The quotation is from Psalm 118:1-29. This psalm is much used in the ritual of Judaism. The rejected stone is the Messiah, and in His rejection He becomes the head of the corner. The same truth is witnessed to by the Holy Spirit in Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20, and 1Peter 2:7. The leaders of the people are the builders. What foreshadowings of events to come!

"But the Lord now pronounces His verdict upon them. He had heard the words spoken by His enemies in their self-condemnation; He speaks next and tells them that their judgment was right. “Wherefore I say unto you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given unto a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof” (Matthew 21:43).

"They had refused not alone that kingdom but the King; the Son they would soon cast out and therefore the Kingdom was to be taken from them. These men who stood there, the generation which had share and part in the rejection of the Kingdom and the King, will never see the Kingdom. It is a sad blindness when men can teach in these days a restitutionism which includes these scribes, elders and chief priests, that they are to be raised from the dead at the time of the coming of the Lord and receive a share in the Kingdom. The Word of the Lord is emphatic and absolute; there is no hope for them. The nation to whom the Lord promises the Kingdom is not the Church. The Church is called the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the Habitation of God by the Spirit, the Lamb’s Wife, but never a nation. The nation is Israel still, but that believing remnant of the nation, living when the Lord comes. He adds another word in connection with speaking of Himself as the Stone, that Old Testament type of King Messiah. “And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:44). This is a very significant utterance. The Lord in these few words predicts the coming judgment of the Jews and the Gentiles. The one sentence has been carried out and the other is still to be executed. The Jews have fallen on this stone and they have been broken. How it has become true! The stone is yet to fall and strike the world-powers, the Gentiles, and grind them to powder. Our space does not permit to follow this thought, but we advise our readers to turn in their Bibles to Daniel 2:1-49 and read Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and the divinely given interpretation. The stone cut out without hands, falling out of heaven, smiting the great image at its feet, is the Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming. The Lord refers to this here. As truly as He broke the Jews who fell on Him, so will He pulverize Gentile world power and dominion, when He is revealed from heaven. The nations are ripe for their judgment."

--Gaebelein, Matthew 21 commentary, from BibleHub

[end quoting Gaebelein]


...continue to next post... [but also COMPARE Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13... at the "GREAT trumpet"... gathered FROM [the extremeties], TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"--this is all "earthly-located" (NOT covering "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" Subject)]

Continued from previous post...

Matthew 21 -

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants
(Mark 12:1-12; Luke 20:9-18)

33 Hear another parable: There was a man, a master of a house, who planted a vineyard, and placed around it a fence, and dug a winepress in it, and built a tower; and he rented it out to farmers and traveled abroad.
34 And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the farmers, to receive his fruits. 35 And the farmers having taken his servants, one they beat, and one they killed, and one they stoned.
36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.
37 And afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
38 But the farmers having seen the son, said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and gain possession of his inheritance.’ 39 And having taking him, they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

[ ^ read my posts about the "CUT OFF [and have nothing]" issue, and the parallels in the wording 7x in Ezekiel (note esp. what "the land of the living" speaks specifically to)... as well as Jeremiah 11:19/parallel Jesus' arrest/trials/Cross/Death (and note a contrasting phrase in Zech14:2 - "NOT be cut off from THE CITY [i.e. Jerusalem]")--this is what the Dan9:24-27 prophecy is concerning]

40 Therefore when the master of the vineyard shall come, what will he do to those farmers?”
41 They say to him, “He will destroy them, the wretches, grievously, and he will rent out the vineyard to other farmers who will give to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus says to them, “Did you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone that those building rejected,
this has become the chief corner.
This was from the Lord,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’j?
43 Because of this I say to you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and will be given to a people [/nation] producing its fruits.k 44 And the one having fallen on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”
45 And the chief priests and the Pharisees, having heard His parables, knew that He speaks about them. 46 And seeking to lay hold of Him, they feared the crowds, because they were holding Him as a prophet.



[see previous post, at top, for explanation of "the vineyard" here ^ ]

^ Let me just add one more line (that I usually put, but neglected to, in these two posts ^ )

"The kingdom OF THE heavenS" = "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom"

(that which His disciples asked Him regarding the "TIMING" of, in Acts 1:6... and which certainly does pertain to "Israel" [the "believing remnant of Israel" will ENTER it, at the time of His Second Coming to the earth Rev19, having (prior-to-that-point) come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")])

Part I

Good day, Pilgrimshope!

First of all, what is "oauksntesching" which you wrote 2 paragraphs above?

But to answer your question, there are many misinterpretations regarding end-time events, which keeps them from coming to a right conclusion. One of them is that there are many who don't understand that the event of the church being gathered and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events.

The Gathering of the church (rapture) = Christ descending to the atmosphere with a voice like a trumpet and calling up the church, with the dead from the on-set of the church until the resurrection being caught up, immortal and glorified. Then those in Christ who are still alive will be transformed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected. At this point the entire church from beginning to end will be present in the air. Then according to the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, He will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. (John 14:1-3, I Thess.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53)

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Sometime after the pouring out of the seventh bowl judgment, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. This event is referred to in Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11-15. The problem is that, when people read those two scriptures, they erroneously apply them to the event of the gathering of the church.

The Error:

Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must be fulfilled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring.

Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Christ. That said, since God's wrath no longer rests upon those in Christ and God's wrath must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, then the church must be gathered prior to start of God's wrath, which is initiated when the Lamb opens the first seal. It is a legal precedent that has been fulfilled.

* Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! - Rom.5:9

* They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thess.1:10

* But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Thess.5:9

The other problem that is out there, is that people don't recognize that there is a difference between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said believers would suffer because of our faith in Him vs. God's coming wrath. They will cite that the apostles and first century church didn't escape trials and persecution! So they say, "since the apostles suffered, then the church will also be on the earth to suffer. However, this is where they don't recognize the difference between the trials and persecutions which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath. They count them as being the same. However, God's coming wrath, also known as 'the Day of the Lord,' will be unprecedented and will be the worst time in the history of the world, unequalled.

The other problem with the church going through the time of God's wrath is that, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's wrath will come upon the whole world affecting all inhabitants, then the church cannot be on the earth to experience it.

(Continued)

Part II

Again, Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the event of the Lords return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. I mentioned this in Part I, which is because the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are two separate events, with different purposes and take place at different times.

The gathering of the church‬‬
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. - John 14:1-3

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."
- I Thess.4:16-18

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - I Corinthians 15:51-53

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” - Revelation 4:1

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.” - Rev.1:7

"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty." - Rev.19:11-15

They are two different events

Below is a chronological summary of end-time events:

* You are here

* The Lord appears in the atmosphere and calls up the church, dead and living, immortal and glorified and takes the entire church back to the Father's house - John 14:1-3

* First seal opened represented by the rider on the white horse, the antichrist and initiates God's wrath and the seven years - Rev.6:1

* The covenant with Israel allows her to builds her long awaited temple and begins to sacrifice and and make offerings - Dan.9:27

* In the middle of the seven years, he stops the sacrifices and offerings and sets up that abomination which causes the desolation

* Israel flees into the wilderness where she is cared for by God during those 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven period. Note: During this seven years, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be taking place) - Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6,14

* Another thing that happens in the middle of the seven years is that, the mark of the beast will become the only valid way of electronically buying and selling. - Rev.13:16

* After the seventh bowl has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and the church will be following behind Him riding on white horses. - Matt.24:30-31, Rev.1:7, 17:14, 19:11-15

* The beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire - Rev.19:20

* Satan will be thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for thousand years - Rev.20:1-3

* Millennial kingdom

* At the end of the thousand years, Satan is released from the Abyss for one last rebellion and deception - 20:7

* Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into - Rev.20:10

It is all a matter of understanding the gathering of the church as being a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Hello Corban!

Regarding the end of the age, there are many different events which take place. The gathering of the church is one and the other is the Lords return to the earth to end the age. These are two separate events, with different purposes and which take place at different times.

After the church has been gathered, God's wrath will follow via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. During this time there will be another group mentioned in Rev.7:9-7, who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath, which are those which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language. After John sees this group, one of the elders asks John "these in white robs who are they and where did they come from?" Now John had just previously written letters to the seven churches, so the fact that the elder is asking him who this group is demonstrates that they are not the church and are never referred to as such. The elder refers to this group as those who will come out of the great tribulation, i.e. great tribulation saints.

This is the same group whom the beast will be given authority over for 42 months (last 3 1/2 years), many of whom will be killed. These along with the remnant of Israel make up the wheat. The tares will be all of those who continued to reject Christ and who will have worshiped the beast, his image and received his mark.

This problem goes right back to those not recognizing the difference between the event of the church being gathered vs. the Lord's returns to the earth to end the age.

Thank you for taking the time to answer comprehensively. I understand that a large portion of eschatological students view Matthew 24:31 as the rapture. I'm not one of them. I give three reasons.
We are Raptured to Christ's presence in the clouds. Matthew 24:31 has the "gathered" standing on earth and seeing our Lord Jesus EXIT the clouds
We, the Church, are never scattered. Although th Church is universal, it is the LOrd's pleasure to have one Church per locality. That is, the Church is designed to be in every city and town on earth. Israel not. It was designed to be in one Land, with a central meeting place - the Temple. The prophecies I gave were to Israel, by Israeli prophets.
In the Lord's answer to the three questions posed in Matthew 24:3, the Lord answers them concerning the whole earth. There are three peoples on earth since Pentecost, (i) The Nations, (ii) The Nation of Israel, and (iii) The Church. You might not see it at first, but there are three distinct sections within the Olivet discourse - each corresponding to one of the three peoples above. Matthew 24:1-31 is all about Jewish things. The Temple, False Prophets, Judea, Jerusalem, Daniel, the Abomination of desolation and a "sign". It ends fittingly with those scattered to the four winds being gathered back to their Land as Ezekiel 37 predicts. The other two divisions are not part of our discussion, so I'll not make the posting any longer. Suffice to say, Israel plays a leading role in the events attached to our Lord's Second Coming for it is the Temple and who resides there that steers events (2nd Thess.2:4; Rev.11)

Next, I cannot agree that the consequences of Christ's rejection and murder fall only on the generation that perpetrated it. Here are my reasons.

1. In Matthew 23:29-36 our Lord Jesus defines "this generation" - and makes them responsible for all innocent blood shed since Abel. It is not the TIME of a man's life that decides his "generation". It is his ORIGIN. In this case, the SERPENT. Their "generation" was not the time they livedm but the nature that was propagated through the centuries. Therefore, the could be "that generation" whose murderous nature murdered Abel, the prophets, our Lord Jesus and His disciples right up to the Second Coming.
2. Those who bayed for our Lord's crucifixion took responsibility for their heads "AND their children"
3. Those who chose Caesar THEN "generated" those who embrace the Beast - a Roman Prince
4. Those who caused the diaspora had children who were born into the diaspora. That is, the penalties of the Law applied to a certain time AND their future offspring
5. Israel started their sinning at Horeb with the golden calf, and never stopped. Their last action in this age is to allow a Gentile king to put his talking idol in the Holy of Holies. The nature of the Israelite never changed.

From my viewpoint, the "gathering" of those scattered to the four winds, "AFTER the Tribulation of those days" and AFTER our Lord bursts out of the clouds to be seen like lightening, can only be Israel. The Church does not fare much better, the bulk of which must face the Great Tribulation (e.g.Rev.13:7), but our Lord Jesus deals with them with different criteria in prophecy. Notice how Matthew 24:32 to 25:30 deals, not with events, but with the morality, fidelity and diligence of the "servants" and "Virgins".

Hello to you too.

Based on previous postings of yours, I judge that you and I are not far apart in the main. I have decide here whether to answer your points out of courtesy (which each owes his brother in Christ), or to humbly ask that you allow me to duck it. The reason is that the OP addressed a very valid point, and I would like to stay on track for that. "Why did our Lord say that the Tares are harvested FIRST?" If I answer your posting, which has many truths, I'll derail the thread.

But I will say this, because it might be of general interest. It is true that after Revelation Chapter 3, the word "Church" is never used again. But there is a reason for this. The word "Church" is "Ekklesia" in the Greek, and it means, "the Gathering of the select ones". Now, if at any time this Church is SCATTERED, or even DIVIDED physically, it cannot be called the GATHERING of the select ones. In Matthew 24 our Lord answers three questions posed by His disciples in 24:3. And He answers these three questions as they pertain to (i) Israel, (ii) the Church, and (iii) All Nations. In ....

1. Matthew 24:3-31 we note that our Lord talks of Jewish things, the Temple, Judea, Jerusalem, Daniel, etc. etc., and end with the Second Coming from the clouds to Mount of Olives
2. Matthew 24:32 to 25:30, our Lord talks of "servants" and Virgins" and how FAITHFUL and DILIGENT they were. He begins with a Parable too, and Parables are only given to the Church to understand. So this section is about the Church in answer to the questions of 24:3.
3. Matthew 25:31-46 deals with "ALL nations" (v.32) and their judgment based on how they treated a Christian in the Great Tribulation - the "least of the Lord's brothers".

Now, in point 2., concerning "servants of the Lord" in Chapter 24:37-45 we find that His servants belong to an HOUSEHOLD. Now, I'm sure you will agree that the HOUSEHOLD of the Lord's servants can only be THE CHURCH (1st Tim.3:15). And WITHIN this household, one is taken and one is left at the coming of the Lord. Verse 43 says that when one is taken and one is left, the Household IS BROKEN UP. If the Church is BROKEN UP because some were TAKEN and some were LEFT, this company of people can never again be called "the GATHERING of the select ones". They are physically DIVIDED and some have gone.

This, I judge, is the reason that the Church is never mentioned again in Revelation. It would be an untruth. The Rapture of SOME at the beginning of the Tribulation, as Revelation 3:10 predicts, would effectively end the GATHERING of the select ones. In Philippians 3:10-14 Paul says that the "Upward call" is a PRIZE. In Luke 21:36 one must be "accounted worthy" to miss the Great Tribulation. And in Revelation 3:10 some of the Church, called "Overcomers", are kept from the trial BECAUSE they did something. All three scriptures about missing the great Tribulation indicates SOME are TAKEN and SOME are LEFT.

But, nothwithstanding your view on these other matters, why do think the the Tares are harvested FIRST in Matthew 13? Are not the unbelievers harvested at Armageddon - LAST?

I'm not saying that exactly...

you may recall my two [types of] posts, on that... the one basically being in agreement with an excerpt concerning the phrase "this generation will not pass away till all be fulfilled":

[Wm Kelly commentary quoted...]
"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof. by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken, but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [in v.24! already] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing, and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new generation, the generation to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."
--William Kelly, commentary on Lk21

[and... the other post]


I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:14-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their guilt and seek My face;

in their affliction

they will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises,

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].


____________

[then... quoting Gaebelein's Commentary on Hosea 5]

"And like the lion after his attack withdraws to his den, so the Lord would withdraw from them, leave them and return to His place, waiting till their repentance comes and they seek Him early in their affliction.

"The last verse of this chapter has a wider meaning than the past judgment which came upon the house of Israel. The Lord of glory came to earth and visited His people. He came with the message and offer of the kingdom to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came unto His own, but His own received Him not. After they had rejected Him, delivered Him into the hands of the Gentiles to be crucified, He returned to His place. There He is now at the right hand of God, waiting for that day, when the remnant of Israel will repent and seek His face Acts 3:19-26. [I mentioned Acts 3:21's reference to FUTURE events (i.e. the "UNTIL") in my Post #71 of this thread (DIFFERENT thread)]. That will be in their coming great affliction, in the time of Jacob’s trouble.

"Hosea 6:1-3. The division of the chapter at this point is unfortunate. The three verses of chapter 6 must not be detached from the previous chapter. Here we have the future repentance of the remnant of Israel, that is during the great tribulation. Believingly they will acknowledge His righteous judgment and express their faith and hope in His mercy and the promised blessings and restoration. They express what their great prophet Moses so beautifully stated in His prophetic song, that great vision given to him, ere he went to the mountain to die. “See now that I, even I, am He and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand” Deuteronomy 32:39. “After two days will He revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight (literally, before His face).” They have been dead spiritually and nationally, but when the two days of their blindness and dispersion are over, there is coming for them the third day of life and [what is *LIKENED UNTO a] resurrection."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Hosea 5 (taken from Bible Hub)

[end quoting Gaebelein; bold and underline mine; bracketed insertions mine]

____________

[note the passages I've listed before that *LIKEN this UNTO a RESURRECTION ^ (re: Israel's "FUTURE"): Romans 11:15(25-29); Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23; Isaiah 26:16-21; Daniel 12:1-4,10; John 6:39 (distinct from v.40); Hosea 5:15-6:3 "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day"... which is "THE LAST" of these three (counting from His resurrection/ascension [32ad], per Hos5:15), or "THE LAST" of seven (if you count from creation/Genesis 1, i.e. the "sabbatismos" of Heb4:9 (see Ex31:13,17 "it [the sabbath/7th day] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"), aka the Millennial Day of REST, that is, the 7th Millennium, or "THE LAST")]


I believe it is a big mistake to view the phrase "The Last Day" to be referring to "a singular 24-hr day"


[end quoting old posts]

Who said anything about scattered? The word is 'harpazo' which means to be seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively . The same word is used to describe when Paul was 'caught up' to the third heaven, and when the Male Child is 'caught up to God's throne and when Philip was snatched away from the eunuch.

The reason that the word church/ekklesia is not used again, is because the church is no longer on the earth. In chapters 1 thru 3, the word ekklesia is used 19 times and then it is never used during the narrative of God's wrath. Revelation 4:1 is a prophetic allusion to the church being gathered up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which is the Lords, saying "come up here"

1. Matthew 24:3-31

   Click to expand...
   we note that our Lord talks of Jewish things, the Temple, Judea, Jerusalem, Daniel, etc. etc., and end with the Second Coming from the clouds to Mount of Olives

   Click to expand...

You are correct in that this is referring to Israel, the setting up of the abomination and their fleeing out into the wilderness, but the Lord's return to end the age also involves all of the inhabitants of the earth:

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

The teaching that the 'one taken' is the gathering of the church is an old teaching and a false one. Those who are taken in the parable are the wicked at the end of the age, for they are being compared to those wicked who were taken away in flood. So the comparison is wicked to wicked. These are the ones who are collected by the angels at the end of the age and will be brought back to where the Lord is to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from His mouth, which is figurative for the word of God. In Luke's version when the Lord says 'one will be taken and the other left' the disciples ask "Where, Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? And the Lord replies with "wherever there is a carcass, there will the vultures gather." This is in reference to Rev.19:17-18 where when Jesus is returning to the earth and angel will be gathering all of the birds of the air to eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people. The church is not in view here, for this event takes place when the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age. Those who are taken will be the wicked. Those who will be left will be the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints.

No one is worthy of the resurrection and being caught up! It is a promise to all who are having faith, regardless of what level. Those who received Christ and turned back to willfully living according to the sinful nature and are therefore not watching, these will be gathered. These are those whose lamps have gone out and have no extra oil when the bridegroom comes.

To answer the OP question "Why did our Lord say that the Tares are harvested FIRST?" Because they are going to be gathered by the angels to be killed by that double-edged sword. Those left will be Israel and the great tribulation saints who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. This has nothing to do with the gathering/rapture of the church, but has to do with the wicked who at the end of the age are gathered by the angels. Those who are left, will be the remnant of Israel and the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

As I continue to make known, the church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. And if you have the church as being the 'ones taken' then it would put them through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment which is the wrath of God and which believers within the church are not appointed to suffer. Because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe.

Now if you are wondering as to why the great tribulation saints will be here, it is because they will not have been believers prior to the time when the church is gathered. They become believers after the gathering of the church which puts them on the earth during the time of God's wrath.

[/QUOTE]

hahaha yes I apologize my thumbs often jumble on this tiny keypad . Sincerely I should re read things first and I apologize

yes I find your thoughts very interesting but I keep checking the scriptures you are using to support what you are saying and it just isn’t there , at least that I myself see in the references you are using

if I don’t listen to what you are saying and first take that as absolute truth and just check the scripture references that you are leaving to support your explainstilns the scriptures aren’t there for the idea . Is my point at least that I’m seeing

I think it’s possible that maybe you actually have it mixed up thinking there are two different events and two different groups still not understanding there is only the church because gentiles were included into the covenant that’s the church people who belong to God through Christ that’s the only way since the gospel was preached .

if you just stick to scripture is already explained see you quoted this

“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which I agree perfectly with The scripture but it doesn’t support what you are saying watch what happens if instead of leaving scripture to those long explaiantions in your post I stick with the things Jesus was saying

“I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you,

I will come again, and receive you unto myself;”


“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he the. Explains all these perpetual tribulations telling them not to be deceived when it comes , to stand firm to the end , they would be killed and imprisoned there would be ears and nations would rise against other nations earthquakes ect then tells them

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:29-31‬ ‭


why or how does it change from just believing what’s there ? You know revelation ? Have you ever considered looking at it through this prism ?

“In the beginning God created the heaven

and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

do you understand what I’m getting at ?

“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:6-7‬ ‭

“And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

are you catching my meaning at all ?

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There is heaven and there is earth revelation is the most involved vision in the Bible that is showing things corresponding between the two aspects of Gods creation .

There are people in heaven and a kingdom in heaven sion is in heaven Jerusalem in heaven the saints both Jew and gentile who have died in Christ are in heaven . There is a service and temple in heaven served by angels

everything isn’t applicable to an earthly future predictable event but things were being shown to him changing from then forward also in heaven . . It definitely does show events effecting the earth but the imagery is involved between both heaven and earth And there is a lot happening in both realms in the vision

So you see revelation revealing things to
that we couldn’t otherwise ever know But for johns vision. so you have a whole state of Matters shifting in heaven when Christ is taken to the throne , And this causes a massive shift for things on earth

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 10-12‬ ‭

the whole book is like that you see a correlation of things happening first in the heavens and then on earth

It’s imperative at least in my unimportant thinking ,to distinguish what’s actually happening on earth , and what’s actually happening in heaven , who it is in heaven and how they got there from the earth. Is something a spiritual reference or natural ? Heavenly or earthly ect because the whole book is this way probably why So many through time have used it to falsely predicated the end times on earth

it shows us the conflict In the world and reasons for it if we had eyes to see into the heavens and look back into the earth it would appear as revelation does the earth after Christ is on the throne in heaven.

“And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:5-

“And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those in heaven came through this and overcame Because they died in faith

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

...And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10, 14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:5-6‬ ‭

I am a great admirer of William Kelly and have profited much from him. If you take his argument that it is a "moral condition" and my argument that it is "the serpentine nature" that is generated, they are , for all intents and purposes, the same.

The rest I have read and noted. If I may, without offense, withhold comment on what you have written (and quoted), I would like to return to the reason of the thread. In Matthew 13 the Tares are harvested first. Why? And how can that be if their harvest is at Armageddon? In Revelation 14 we have first the harvest of the Overcomers, or Firstripe of the Church. Then and angel preaches the eternal gospel from mid-heaven. Then a second harvest takes place - that of the "vine of the earth". Are not Matthew 13 and Revelation 14 at odds?

I agree with your estimation. His eschatology is eloquent.

Thank you for taking the time to show your understanding. What a pity that, except for Revelation 19, you never documented your opinions with scripture. This was important because, for instance, you would never have been able to make a statement like, "saints populating the earth". There is no scripture for this, and Luke assures us that saints are "children of the resurrection" and do not have children, seeing as they are like the angels and do not marry. Contrariwise, it is the Nations who survive the Great Tribulation, and especially Armageddon, (Zech.14:16) that make up the main population of the earth and will replenish its population. It is NATIONS which, one thousand years later, rebel under Magog (Rev.20:7-8). I dare say that the survivors of Armageddon are long dead after 1,000 years, even if long life was the rule of the Millennium.

But maybe I missed something.

""how does this support a rapture beforehand if oauksntesching the church that there are those who have died beforehand and those who will remain until the end when he returns ? ""

Lol
All refusing the mark die.
Psssst....there are no Christians surviving the gt. They are ALL MARTYRED.

""And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”""

Your verses say "one end of heaven to the other"

All you did was show a gathering IN HEAVEN......NOT EARTH.....BY ANGELS...NOT JESUS.

You actually inadvertently supported a pretrib rapture
LOL