If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

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TheDivineWatermark

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#41
^ EDIT to add: and Paul did quote from Jesus' Olivet Discourse when Paul spoke of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of the many more that will follow on from that INIITIAL ONE (that's how "birth PANGS" work ;) )

--[Paul] "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman with child / in labor... at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period-1Th5:2-3

--[Jesus] "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL; same word]" and the FIRST of THOSE He mentions is "Matt24:4/Mk13:5 - G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" (i.e. Seal #1, the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL/advent/presence/parousia] is after the working of Satan..." parallel Dan9:27a[26 - "prince that SHALL COME"])



(the SEALS are the equivalent of "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse)

____________

See also Revelation 5:9's "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... hello. ;)
[this context is up in Heaven... BEFORE Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7 yrs]
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#42
ChoirLoft said:
[re: Matt24:28 and Lk17:37] Whether YOU use those verses to justify the false rapture doctrine or not is irrelevant. Most do and you know it.
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I would not say "most"... though I have noticed A FEW on this site doing so, still (as *many* do)... but no, I would not say that *most* pre-tribbers misapply this "Second Coming to the earth" context (which is what it actually is), unlike they did back in the 70s when I first started studying the Subject. They did it A LOT back then, I do admit.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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GaryA said:
Something certainly is not right about the 'pre-trib' rapture teaching.
It is a part of the 'pre-trib' belief that "the church" will be removed ['pre-trib'] - thus, [also/thereby] removing the Holy Spirit from the Earth. Afterward, according to this belief, others will be saved and then beheaded for their faith. The problem with this is - without the presence of the Holy Spirit on the Earth - how can anyone possibly be saved? (No one is saved on their own; rather, the Lord must draw them to Him - which He does by-and-through the Holy Spirit.)
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No. The viewpoint of "pre-trib" is NOT that "the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth" but that His "RESTRAINING [at present]" is what is removed. His "restraining" role, at present.

"The Church which is His body" [that's us!] is what EXITS from the earth, at that point ("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" i.e. our Rapture / harpazo / "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" / "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" / etc etc)


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Many people will come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture (in fact, as I've said, our Rapture event will be a primary impetus that turns Israel to their Messiah [Jesus Christ!], and they will then "lead the charge," so to speak, in the INVITING TO the earthly MK age which follows the trib yrs [via the "INVITATION"/msg per Matt24:14/Matt26:13 and Rev19:9/Matt22:9-13, etc...])
 
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Scribe

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TheDivineWatermark said:
No. The viewpoint of "pre-trib" is NOT that "the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth" but that His "RESTRAINING [at present]" is what is removed. His "restraining" role, at present.

"The Church which is His body" [that's us!] is what EXITS from the earth, at that point ("THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" i.e. our Rapture / harpazo / "our episynagoges UNTO HIM" / "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" / etc etc)
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This is one of the interpretations. There are other interpretations in the pre trib camp.
He that restrains could be a reference to Daniel 12:1 and be about Michael. Something mysterious that Paul had explained to them from Daniel that he saw about this prophesy that Michael was given the job of kicking this whole thing off.
Nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being removed by rapturing the Church. I lean toward the Daniel 12:1 interpretation at this time. S
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Scribe said:
This is one of the interpretations. There are other interpretations in the pre trib camp.
He that restrains could be a reference to Daniel 12:1 and be about Michael. Something mysterious that Paul had explained to them from Daniel that he saw about this prophesy that Michael was given the job of kicking this whole thing off.
Nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being removed by rapturing the Church. I lean toward the Daniel 12:1 interpretation at this time. S
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I'm familiar with that view (Michael / Dan12:1), but I think it is not correct due to the "timing" issues not lining up (I won't go into that, here).

And, since the man of sin's "BE REVEALED" issue is mentioned 3x in the 2Th2 passage, (not only in relation to what Paul said the Thessalonians already "KNOW PERFECTLY" about "the DOTL's ARRIVAL" 1Th5:2-3... being like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" [and Jesus had mentioned THOSE--and what they are]), then I am more inclined to believe that the "RESTRAINING, AT PRESENT, UNTIL" looks more like the following Lam2:3-4 passage [in a post I'd made in the past]:

[quoting old post]

The wording of 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a is very similar to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in the context of "WRATH" words and "judgments" on Israel),

--where it [2Th2:7-8a] says, "the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." ; and

--Lam2:3-4 says (in very similar language), "...he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [effectively saying (to their enemy) 'HAVE AT IT!'/'go ahead, sic 'em!' (i.e. LIFTING THE RESTRAINT)] , and he burned against Jacob like like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about."

[end quoting]

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[this ^ , in view of Habakkuk 1:6,12's saying that the Chaldeans/Babylonians are ("ordained BY HIM") "for judgment" and ("established" by Him) "for correction"... and then, in Hosea 5:14-6:3 says, "IN THEIR [Israel's] AFFLICTION, they WILL seek Me early"]
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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One of the arguments against the idea of the Holy Spirit being the "[one] restraining at present, UNTIL" is that "the [one] restraining" (in 2Th2:7b) is in the "masculine" and as the argument goes, "the Holy Spirit" (wherever referred to / written) is always in the "neuter"...

[see "masculine" here: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) ]

...however, this is not entirely accurate! Yes, it is true of the specific phrase "the Holy Spirit" (that it is always in the "neuter"), but ANOTHER PHRASE (referring to Him) *IS* in the "masculine"... and THAT is in the specific phrase: "[another] COMFORTER [/Paraklēton / Paraclete / Helper / Advocate - G3875 - masculine]" - John 14:16,26, John 15:26, John 16:7 [see also John 7:39!]


[from BibleHub]
"3875 paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court."




[pertaining specifically to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]) "in this present age [singular]"--as permanently "indwelling" us... "[sealed...] unto the day of redemption"... that is, "the redemption of the 'purchased-possession'"... that's "the Church which is His body" (see also 2Th2:15-17)]
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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GaryA said:
Do you realize that - if you put this in your signature, you would not have to add it to the end of your posts?
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If I were to venture a guess, I would say perhaps it is his desire for his "tagline" to be visible at all times to all readers (as opposed to "signatures" which are only visible to those readers [i.e. MEMBERS] who are logged in / online--logged onto this site)



For example, as soon as I log out I can no longer see your "signature"... thus, it is only of benefit to the MEMBERS of this site (and visible to them only while they are logged onto this site)
 
GaryA

GaryA

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TheDivineWatermark said:
If I were to venture a guess, I would say perhaps it is his desire for his "tagline" to be visible at all times to all readers (as opposed to "signatures" which are only visible to those readers [i.e. MEMBERS] who are logged in / online--logged onto this site)



For example, as soon as I log out I can no longer see your "signature"... thus, it is only of benefit to the MEMBERS of this site (and visible to them only while they are logged onto this site)
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I was thinking that perhaps he simply has not looked into how to use the signature feature yet.
 
Blade

Blade

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Caught up aka Rapture is in the bible. Hello CAUGHT UP. Voice shout trump of God will happen as Christ comes in the air.. Him and WHO is with Him? Yeah.. then dead rise we then changed go up to be with Christ forever.

Saintrose.. you right now have all power all authority over ever demon every fallen angel. God gave you that authority. And since Christ went up Satan has never been out in the open doing lying wonders. Why? WHAT has all power over him? When it/He is taken out of the way then and only then does the lawless one come out in the open and do lying wonders. People still find Christ then. And the lawless one for some reason at that moment has power over the Saints. Not man but the lawless one. The lawless one can not touch me.. greater is He that is in ME then he thats in the world. Christ is will always be GOD in me. I am ONE with Christ one with the Father and Christ is in me.

Now no one can give a verse for Pre trib nor can anyone give a verse for post nor even mid. So lets not talk as if our personal belief is the real one. So maybe a believer should live in the moment God gave them. To know Christ WILL come for His Church and NO believer today knows when. And I was not promised tomorrow. So I have faith now.. I live knowing He is coming now. I live for Him NOW. Always looking up always ready. I will never miss Him. And NO ONE can say for fact that if you are not watching if you are not ready and if you do not believe you go anyway. That is not written anywhere. Again.. NO MAN knows when He comes to get us so WHERE He is we WILL be. To always be thinking of Him always watching how we live always expecting.

And as Paul said "WE which remain". Not those.. not them but said WE.. hmm
 
kinda

kinda

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saintrose said:
I argued with a friend yesterday who claimed that the Rapture is going to happen. I asked her where it was in the Bible and she said that it's not in the Bible but it's true. The pastor at bible study taught that we don't have to worry about anything because we're going to be raptured out.

If the Rapture is true then just who are the saints whoa re beheaded for their faith?

And unless you didn't know this - our government ordered a number of guillotines and so did Canada. In fact Canada is constructing concentration-style camps.
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Pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine.

Been following the conspiracies for over 20 years, so this guillotine thing isn't a surprise. At least it's better than the oven, firing squad, or gas chamber.

I'm hoping for a prophet or prophets to guide the elect, because someone has to live until the end, right?
 
Butterflyyy

Butterflyyy

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They are the people who get saved after the Rapture. They will be martyred.
 
Butterflyyy

Butterflyyy

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Ahwatukee said:
Hello saintrose!

In answer to your question, those who will be beheaded for their faith will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. We are introduced to this vast group in Revelation 7:9-17 who are from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group whom the beast will wage war against and conquer as revealed in Rev.13:7. This is the same group that is resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

Those who are beheaded, are the saints who are present during the time of God's wrath and who come out of the great tribulation.
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Ahwatukee I really appreciate your insight...
Thankyou🙂
 
GaryA

GaryA

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kinda said:
I'm hoping for a prophet or prophets to guide the elect, because someone has to live until the end, right?
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There will be no prophets (not until the Two Witnesses, anyway). The Holy Spirit is your guide.

The only other thing there is - is - all of the folks who have been trying to tell other folks - for years - that the kind of thing we are dealing with today (and worse, yet to come) was/is "on its way" and that we would have to deal with it - that our liberties are being stripped away one-by-one - etc. etc. etc.

Very precious few will live until the end. The absolute majority of Christians will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.
 
kinda

kinda

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GaryA said:
There will be no prophets (not until the Two Witnesses, anyway). The Holy Spirit is your guide.

The only other thing there is - is - all of the folks who have been trying to tell other folks - for years - that the kind of thing we are dealing with today (and worse, yet to come) was/is "on its way" and that we would have to deal with it - that our liberties are being stripped away one-by-one - etc. etc. etc.

Very precious few will live until the end. The absolute majority of Christians will be beheaded for not worshipping the beast.
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Agreed, but, but, but, wouldn't a prophet be nice right about now?

We are blessed to have live in this age, so much modern advancements, and knowledge at our finger tips, and etc. God has a plan for our lives, would be nice to see signs and wonders.

Who are two Prophets? Moses and Elijah? Moses would make sense, lead the people to the promise land.
 
GaryA

GaryA

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If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist?

Ahwatukee said:
Hello saintrose!

In answer to your question, those who will be beheaded for their faith will be those who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. We are introduced to this vast group in Revelation 7:9-17 who are from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group whom the beast will wage war against and conquer as revealed in Rev.13:7. This is the same group that is resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6.

Those who are beheaded, are the saints who are present during the time of God's wrath and who come out of the great tribulation.
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Revelation 13:7 is talking about the Holy Roman Empire having its way with Christians during the Dark Ages. These are the souls under the alter in Revelation 6:9-10. Those who will be beheaded for their faith are modern-day born-again Christians. These are those "that should be killed as they were" in Revelation 6:11. Both groups are "tribulation saints" and are represented together in the group of Revelation 7:9-17.

No one will be saved during the time of the Wrath of God - "last chances are gone" at that point in time.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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kinda said:
Pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine.

Been following the conspiracies for over 20 years, so this guillotine thing isn't a surprise. At least it's better than the oven, firing squad, or gas chamber.

I'm hoping for a prophet or prophets to guide the elect, because someone has to live until the end, right?
Click to expand...
The pre-tribulation gathering of the church is not a conspiracy. I have been studying end-time events for over 45 years.

The underlying principle to this, is that Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

============================================================================
"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our sins;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
==============================================================================

Therefore, believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and will be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

It is important to understand that there is a different between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith in Him vs. God coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be poured out on a Christ rejecting world, the proud, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, etc., etc..

It is also important to have an understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues the two witnesses will bring, which comprise God's wrath. By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. The Lord is not going to first have His bride beat up and then come for her to take her back to the Father's house.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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kinda said:
Pre-tribulation rapture is false doctrine.

Been following the conspiracies for over 20 years, so this guillotine thing isn't a surprise. At least it's better than the oven, firing squad, or gas chamber.

I'm hoping for a prophet or prophets to guide the elect, because someone has to live until the end, right?
Click to expand...
Yes, there will be someone to live until through God's wrath until the end when Jesus returns. Those who will be on the earth are listed below:

The nation Israel: The unbelieving nation of Israel who will fulfill the last seven years of the decree of seventy sevens that was decreed upon Daniel's people (Israel) and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24

The great tribulation saints: Those from every nation, tribe, people and language (Gentiles) who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath who are introduced in Revelation 7:9-17

The Male Child/144,000: The Male Child is a collective name representing the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel, ergo, gives birth to. They will be on the earth during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period and then caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years - Revelation 12:5

The Unsaved: All whose names that were not written in the book of life before the world began - Revelation 13:8, 17:8

Most of the great tribulation saints will be killed during that last 3 1/2 years, but some will make it through alive and will be the ones, along with the remnant of Israel, who will enter into the millennial kingdom and repopulate the earth. At that time, the wicked will be gathered by the angels and brought back to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword which proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which is symbolically representing the spoken word of God. Then all of those birds that will have been gathered by the angel in Revelation 19:17-18, 21, will gorge themselves on their flesh.
 
kinda

kinda

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Ahwatukee said:
The pre-tribulation gathering of the church is not a conspiracy. I have been studying end-time events for over 45 years.

The underlying principle to this, is that Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

============================================================================
"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;

yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.

But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our sins;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
==============================================================================

Therefore, believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and will be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.

It is important to understand that there is a different between the trials and persecutions that Jesus said believers would have because of their faith in Him vs. God coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will be poured out on a Christ rejecting world, the proud, the arrogant, the sexually immoral, etc., etc..

It is also important to have an understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues the two witnesses will bring, which comprise God's wrath. By the time the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. The Lord is not going to first have His bride beat up and then come for her to take her back to the Father's house.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Click to expand...

It's o.k. if we disagree on the Pre-tribulation rapture. My concern is that those that believe in this misguided belief, when it doesn't happen, this could lead to the great falling away, which is pretty serious.

Not gonna bother posting links, scriptures, or videos, since this is easily searchable with basic google, or youtube search skills. I would encourage everyone to understand the post-tribulation return of Jesus, which only requires Christ to return once, not twice, unlike the false teaching of the pre-tribulation rapture. It makes much more sense this way and backed by scripture and not Hollywood movies.

Sorry for the harsh reply, this doctrine of the secret rapture is a farce, and must be abolished like the lock downs we are currently in.

I hope we can still be friendly towards one another despite our differences in this topic.
 
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