Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

No I I just reject your interpretation.

@TheDivineWatermark

Dead bodies have been raised from Old Testament times. I'm not denying that God doesn't raise dead earthly bodies, I'm saying that The Resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with raising dead earthly bodies.

The fact that dead bodies have been raised from OT times should tell you that The Resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead bodies. The resurrection is ONE TIME EVENT and it happened when Jesus and SOME but NOT ALL of the OT saints earthly bodies were raised.

The resurrection of Christ's dead body doesn't disprove anything. God has been raising earthly bodies even in Old Testament times BEFORE The Resurrection.

@Nehemiah6

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Does this fit YOUR definition of a resurrection?

2 Kings 2:11 (KJV 1900): And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind2 Kings 2:11 (KJV 1900): And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
But I do base my believe on this verse my belief but was not a clam as if I understand fully.

For me this tells me being born again as spiritual resurrection but I don’t think this is the same as physical resurrection.

Ok, let's go with your definition for a minute...

Got it (I think...)... this is how you're defining it.

Hmmm... are we changing definitions now, or what??

I'm not "gettin'" you at this point. = D

I thought you said it has NOTHING to do with raising dead bodies, and then you say that the [many / some of] the OT saints earthly bodies WERE raised. Which is it (according to you)??

It is The Resurrection. The OT saints died in their sins because Christ had not yet paid their sin debt but as soon as Christ rose again, their sins were covered and they were passed from death unto life.

No you're not getting the point because I never once changed definitions. The OT saints that rose, rose up bodily for two reasons. One was in judgement against Israel, and the other was to CONCEAL the real Resurrection.

The dead bodies rose from the grave at the SAME TIME The Resurrection took place. and if people would believe the bible without prejudice it would be abundantly clear. Paul lays it out crystal clear in the seed analogy.

Do you people not realize that we have been made PERFECT RIGHT NOW? We are made perfect because the blood of Christ has covered our sins. EVERYBODY who has ever been saved from Adam to present were made perfect in ONE DAY, the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Heb_11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

OT saints were made perfect on resurrection day, they were all worthy of receiving ALL OF THE PROMISES at that point, they got their glorified bodies and are in heaven right now. They WERE the dead in Christ because they were not PERFECTED when they died. We as believers after the resurrection have also been raised from death unto life and we will NEVER die ever again. There is NO SUCH THING as the DEAD IN CHRIST after the resurrection of Christ.

Paul said the above because they were saying there is no resurrection, not meaning that that had already been resurrected. But that there will be a resurrection.

If you or anyone wants to believe that Moses or any of the other OT saints have already been raised in their immortal and glorified bodies, it's ok. I don't believe that it something to be divided about. I just happen to not believe that anyone else except for Jesus has been raised immortal and glorified and that the church is next (those at His coming).


Their spirits are in heaven, not their glorified bodies. They're still waiting to resurrected. Consider what the angel said to Daniel:

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At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress, the likes of which will not have occurred from the beginning of nations until that time. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.


The time of great distress is cited by Jesus in Matthew 24:21, which is initiated by the setting up of the abomination. This is the time period that the angels says that "at that time your people (Israel), will be delivered/resurrected. Seeing that this event is still future, then so is the resurrection of Daniel and his people Israel.

When Jesus took them, it was in their spirits that went to heaven. There is not scripture that states that He resurrected them in their immortal and glorified bodies.

Regarding this, it is important to understand the meaning of the word 'anastasis' translated as 'resurrection.'

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Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.

HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
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So, the resurrection has to do with the spirit reentering the body and standing up again. Now, Jesus and the apostles resurrected people such as Jairus daughter, Lazarus and Lydia, but not in their immortal and glorified bodies. They simply brought them back to life in the same state that they were in, i.e. in their mortal bodies. They died again. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection immortal and glorified and the church is next (those at His coming).

Sorry, my mistake.

It's ok. This is nothing to be divided over.

Based on what I know of the different phases of the first resurrection, no one but Christ has yet been raised immortal and glorified and the church is next. I believe that those of the church who have died will be next to resurrect, with the living being changed immortal and glorified. Then sometime towards the end of the tribulation period, the OT saints will also be resurrected immortal and glorified. Then after Jesus returns to the earth, those saints who died in the tribulation period will be resurrected immortal and glorified. However, I do not believe that anyone except for Christ has been resurrected in His immortal and glorified body.

Ok, I guess what I'd like for you to clarify is this, WHICH DAY are you saying "The Resurrection" (as you're defining it) took place:

--the Day Jesus DIED on the Cross? when His BODY died [and He had said, "Father, into Thy hands I commend My Spirit"]?; (or)

--three days LATER (ON "Firstfruit" per Lev23:10-12 [1Cor15:20]) when He bodily rose from the dead (and said John 20:17)?



Matthew 27 -

50 And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn into two from top to bottom. And the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split. 52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose. 53 And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

The day that our sins were paid for. Was the debt paid when he died or when he rose again... I don't know. My guess is resurrection day.

If we follow the chronology based on the order the events as presented in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles,

1. Jehoram is anointed king of Judah (2 Kings 1:17), ruling with his father, Jehoshaphat, for the final 5 or 6 years of his father’s reign.

2. Elijah is translated to heaven (2 Kings 2:1–18).

3. Jehoshaphat, advised by Elisha, teams with the king of Israel in a fight against Moab (2 Kings 3).

4. Jehoshaphat dies, leaving Jehoram to rule alone (2 Chronicles 21:1).

5. Jehoram murders all his brothers (2 Chronicles 21:4) and builds idolatrous high places in Judah (verse 11).

6. Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah that details his judgment (2 Chronicles 21:12–15).

So Elijah was taken up to the skies, the first heaven, and then brought back down again. He did not remain in heaven for all his life, and he never reached the 3rd heaven, where God is sitting.

John 3:13 made it clear "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

2 Chronicles 21:12 (SDABC3): The account of Elijah’s translation is recorded in 2 Kings 2, but the account of Jehoram’s reign does not occur till 2 Kings 8. Biblical events are not always related in strict chronological sequence.

The point is, Elijah went up to the 1st heaven while the dad was still alive, but Jehoram only got that letter from Elijah after his dad died.

Anyway, John 3:13 lay rest to the "Elijah went up to the 3rd heaven" belief.