The Post Tribulation Rapture

All I am/was asking is/was --- do you believe that all of the things mentioned in the last part of Matthew 24:29 do-indeed-and-in-fact occur after the 'tribulation' referred to in the first part of that verse.

Is that - or is that not - what is clearly indicated in this verse?

Do you or don't you?

Truth7t7 - I am in no way against you. In fact, we believe alike on a lot of things. It is only in the 'details' of what is different about what we believe that I am addressing (in this thread, relevant to it). Why? Because, I have been studying the scripture for 40+ years also. And, I think you have "missed" on some of the 'details'. Just trying to get you to think about some things...

Thanks for the response.

That was a good storyline, but void of scripture to support any claim made.

Once again, a good storyline but absolutely no scripture was referenced to support your claim, a very weak response.

Are you next?

I realize this essentially agrees (correct?) - "sort of" - with what I was saying earlier. However, I was looking for a more direct answer that was very specific to the grammar of the verse (what it simply says) "irregardless" of when anyone thinks it might occur relative to anything except the 'tribulation' referred to.

In other words, what the [stand-alone] verse clearly says.

Why is it "like pulling teeth" to get anyone on here to say 'Yes' or 'No' to anything - you know - a straight answer...

SMH

Not every post needs to include a passage of scripture. Sometimes, all that is necessary is common sense on the part of the reader...

Some posts are meant to be "introductions" to further discussion; however, unless a reader is clearly interested in actually going forward with that discussion - it is not worth pursuing.

Read my previous post.

The Lamb slain is for those whose names are written - the Lamb would not have been slain, if no names were written - you view the from the foundation of the world, to the Lamb that was slain for those that was written in the book, the names had to be written before the Lamb was slain for them, hence the names was also written from the foundation of the world, as the Lamb was also to be slain as was determined from the foundation of the world.

Gary I really don't know what your looking for

Luke's account of the same events, that take place (Immediately After The Tribulation?

(FUTURE EVENTS)

1. TRIBULATION ENDS

2. IMMEDIATELY SIGNS IN SUN, MOON, STARS

3. MENS HEARTS FAIL FOR FEAR OF WHATS COMING

4. SIGNS SEEN, REDEMPTION IS CLOSE

5. SECOND COMING IN THE HEAVENS

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

One For Israel - Messianic Judaism / Christianity is Jewish

When one converts to Christianity / Messianity / Messianic Judaism, one becomes an Israelite, as it is the true form of Judaism (incorporating the partial fulfilment to date, of the prophesies of the Judaic Messiah, to be fully fulfilled at the return of Christ / Messiah), practiced by Israelites.

Did all twelve of Jesus' / Yeshua's disciples cease to be Jewish Israelites, when they "converted" to Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach's Messianic Judaism commonly called Christianity / Messianity / Judaic Messianism?

In Christianity / Judaic Messianism, God's laws are written through the blood of Jesus / Yeshua on our hearts and minds. Those who have converted by blood or adoption to Christianity / Messianic Judaism all became Israelites, as they adopted one of the forms of Judaism, Christianity that follows God's laws written on their hearts and minds, is Messianic Judaism.


Ezekiel 36 (ESV)

19 I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. 22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you ( Israel's renewed covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ). And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel ( scattered Ephraim among the Gentiles ) and the house of Judah ( those Jews returned or those not yet, from Babylonian captivity and Roman diaspora ), 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts ( Israel's renewed covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ). And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant ( Israel's renewed covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ) with the house of Israel ( scattered Ephraim among the Gentiles ) and with the house of Judah ( those Jews returned or those not yet, from Babylonian captivity and Roman diaspora ), 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."


John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one ( Israel's renewed covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ) the children of God who are scattered abroad ( Jews / Judah, and Gentiles / Ephraim. 53 So from that day on they made plans to put him to death. 54 Jesus therefore no longer walked openly among the Jews ( Judah ), but went from there to the region near the wilderness, to a town called Ephraim ( Gentiles ), and there he stayed with the disciples.


Acts 2 (ESV)

11 both Jews ( from remnant Judah ) and proselytes ( scattered Ephraimites among the Gentiles ), Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God."

Those Israelites ( Jews / Judah and Ephraimites / Gentiles ) of verse 11 is addressed collectively as men of Israel in verse 22:

22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God ( in Israel's renewed covenant written in the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach Son of David son of Judah ), you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Matthew 24 (untwisted order of events, order of text as received from God preserved):

1. Gospel of the kingdom being proclaimed to the whole world (verse 14).
2. The great tribulation (verse 29)
3. The one and only second coming of Christ / Messiah, first coming was as baby of Mary / Miriam (verse 30) accompanying the one and only rapture of those in Christ / Messiah (verse 40)


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.

The Apostles were disciples of Jesus Christ (Christians)

Messianic Judaism is nothing more than (Christian Zionism) in a new package, that's my observation and opinion.

You will closely note that the seal of the Messianic movement maintains a six pointed (Hexagram), this symbol is associated with biblical evil, the star of the (False god Remphan) no it's not David's seal

This (Hexagram) is a high symbol used in world occultism, Christian's should have no association with it.

Acts 17:43KJV
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

1 Thessalonians 5:22KJV
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Messianic Seal of Jerusalem

Messianic Seal

Wikipedia: The hexagram, like the pentagram, was and is used in practices of the occult and ceremonial magic and is attributed to the 7 "old" planets outlined in astrology.
The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman[10] and for conjuring spirits and spiritual forces in diverse forms of occult magic. In the book The History and Practice of Magic, Vol. 2, the six-pointed star is called the talisman of Saturn and it is also referred to as the Seal of Solomon.[11] Details are given in this book on how to make these symbols and the materials to use.

Double hexagram.

Christianity is the Messianic branch of Judaism (click to view)

I struggle to find 2nd Corinthians 5:75.

With regards to your other scripture of one renewed Israel Body of Christ / Messiah, the following:


Colossians 3 (ESV)

11 Here there is not Greek ( Gentile / Ephraim ) and Jew ( Judah ), circumcised ( Jew / Judah ) and uncircumcised ( Gentile / Ephraim ), barbarian ( Gentile / Ephraim ), Scythian ( Gentile / Ephraim ), slave ( Gentile / Ephraim ), free ( Judah / Ephraim and Gentile / Ephraim ); but Christ ( renewed Israel Body of Christ / Messiah ) is all ( Christianity / Messianic Judaism ), and in all ( Christianity as the true Messianic branch of Judaism ).


Galatians 3 (ESV)

28 There is neither Jew ( Judah ) nor Greek ( Gentile / Ephraim ), there is neither slave ( Gentile / Ephraim ) nor free ( Judah / Ephraim and Gentile / Ephraim ), there is no male ( Judah / Ephraim and Gentile / Ephraim ) and female ( Judah / Ephraim and Gentile / Ephraim ), for you are all one in Christ Jesus ( Christianity / Messianic Judaism ).



Acts 24 (ESV)

1 And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. 2 And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying: "Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, 3 in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. 4 But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the (Judaic) sect of the Nazarenes (called Christianity or Messianic Judaism today).

Please quote Revelations 14 mid-trib return believe scripture, that substantiate your interpretation of Revelations 14.

Read the order of events in Matthew 24, the RAPTURE is right at the end in verse 40 (accompanying the next and final return of Christ / Messiah, which is immediately AFTER the GREAT TRIBULATION, and the GREAT TRIBULATION follows the GOSPEL PROCLAIMED TO ALL THE NATIONS in verse 14, so between verse 14 and 40, the end of this earth as it will come is portrayed).


Matthew 24 (ESV)

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15 "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. 36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.

God's renewed Israel Body of Christ / Messiah is scattered all over the world, as the Jews do not allow them Aliyah because they do not belief in the branch of Judaism that denies the Messiah, but they believe in the branch of Messianic Judaism ( / Christianity ).

It also seems that he will not have regard for "the desire of women"? What does that mean?

Daniel 11:37KJV
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

Not all Gentiles are Ephraim, but all of Ephraim is still living among the Gentiles:

Acts 15:20 (not the new covenant) applies to all Gentiles ( excluding Ephraim ), whilst Hebrews 8:10 (the new covenant with the renewed Israel Body of Christ / Messiah) applies to Ephraim of the renewed Israel Body of Christ / Messiah.

For the non-Ephraim Gentiles in the Body of Christ / Messiah:

Acts 15 (ESV)

13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 "'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.' 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.


For Judah among the Jews, and Ephraim among the Gentiles:

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel ( Ephraim among the Gentiles ) and with the house of Judah ( among the Jews ), 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel ( Judah among the Jews and Ephraim among the Gentiles ) after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people ( written with the blood of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach ). 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Old Israel under the broken old covenant is obsolete.

Renewed Israel Body of Christ, under the new covenant, is all that remains as elect, along with the adopted Gentiles, that follow in God's ways under Kingship of Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach.

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Let us examine every mention fo the "four winds";

Jeremiah 49:36; "And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come."

Daniel 7:2; "Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea."

Daniel 8:8; "Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven."

Daniel 11:4; "And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."

Zechariah 2:6; "Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD."

Mark 13:27; "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

It is at once clear that the winds originate in heaven, but that they blow from heaven across the earth when scattering. Heavenly in origin, but with a scattering function on earth. This is the same as God's Government. It is heavenly, but it is exercised on earth. This is the same as Satan's government. He is an angel (of heaven) and Prince of the power of the "AIR", but operates to and fro across the earth. The four winds must be an act of God's governmental dealing with Israel. That Matthew and Mark indicate that it is not only heavenly, but even seeks out "elect" from heaven, is in harmony with resurrected saints. Enoch is raptured and does not see death. Where is he now. Well, he was raptured to heaven. Elijah is taken up to heaven alive. He is not on earth, neither is he in Hades below the earth. In Matthew 27:52, a company of Old Testament saints, who were KNOWN in Jerusalem, were resurrected. Where are they today?

The grammar of the above verses indicates that the "scattering" is on earth, but when it is time to "Gather", heaven is included in the search and gathering of Elect Jews.

Note: The reason that our Lord Jesus forbade the woman at the tomb to touch Him was because our Lord Jesus is the "Firstfruits of the dead" (1st Cor.15:20-23). And the Firstfruits belong to God. Our Lord Jesus would FIRST present Himself to the Father before men could have him. But the Law of the Firstfruits is that it is a "SHEAF", not an "ear" (Lev.23:11). That is why the company of Matthew 27:52 were raised up from the dead too - to provide a "SHEAF" of Firstfruits "on the morrow after the Sabbath". They would have ascended to the Father with Jesus, but they had no reason to return like our Lord had. They should still be in heaven. Thus, God's heavenly administration would have the bulk of Israel scattered ON EARTH, and a few in HEAVEN.

By the way, I like your approach. You had a good argument - the result of a good thought-process. Big hearted is the student of the Bible who says; "I'm not sure" and "might be" and "could be" and "most likely".