Nature of man --- a different biblical perspective worth considering ( part 1)

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lenna

Guest
#21
[QUOTE="lenna, posted ]I really do not want to get into all of that, but I did note that seemed a very broad brush to me

honestly, I come to CC to get away from doing work here at home or online. so, I prefer smaller bytes/bites (no reference to pork or beef)

I do have a question for you though. in your profile you state you were BORN a Christian

I do not believe a person can be born a Christian and I do not hesitate to state it does not seem the Bible indicates that is possible either

so, how do you see this ? how is it you believe you were born as a Christian?


People are different. Sometimes small bites do not go for me. I really want to see people's in depth understanding of what they believe which sometimes "small bites" may not portray

Well, i believe that one can be born a Christian. As one grows to take responsibility of his actions, he can continue to be or not to be a Christian. It is a choice at that point.[/QUOTE]


MY RESPONSE:

whoah...first let's address the quote option

when you want to answer someone. that is their post, just click on the reply button in the lower right quandrant

like this:

People are different. Sometimes small bites do not go for me. I really want to see people's in depth understanding of what they believe which sometimes "small bites" may not portray

Well, i believe that one can be born a Christian. As one grows to take responsibility of his actions, he can continue to be or not to be a Christian. It is a choice at that point
people will respond in depth more if you edit the length of your op...as we already said?

would you be able to supply verses from scripture that indicate you were born as a Christian?

I do not believe the Bible indicates that is possible, therefore, I would like to know how you have come to believe that. this would be one of those 'in depth' understandings you say you like at times
 
Jul 11, 2020
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#22
People are different. Sometimes small bites do not go for me. I really want to see people's in depth understanding of what they believe which sometimes "small bites" may not portray

Well, i believe that one can be born a Christian. As one grows to take responsibility of his actions, he can continue to be or not to be a Christian. It is a choice at that point.
MY RESPONSE:

whoah...first let's address the quote option

when you want to answer someone. that is their post, just click on the reply button in the lower right quandrant

like this:



people will respond in depth more if you edit the length of your op...as we already said?

would you be able to supply verses from scripture that indicate you were born as a Christian?

I do not believe the Bible indicates that is possible, therefore, I would like to know how you have come to believe that. this would be one of those 'in depth' understandings you say you like at times[/QUOTE]


I know i clicked on the reply button when replying to your mail. don't know what happened.

It seems to me our understanding of who a Christian is differs. Well i believe that when someone is born into a Christian family ( Christian in the true sense of the word), that someone will be brought up in the way of the Lord. He "stands" in the faith of his parents and in the innocency of his mind, he dines with the Lord in the spirit. Jesus likened the Kingdom like unto little children.
He raised Jairus little daughter from the dead based on the father"s faith for he told the father, do not be afraid, just believe, meaning that his own faith is enough to raise his little child from dead. The effectual prayer of the righteous avails much.

It becomes a different ball game when the person starts being responsible for his actions.
 
L

lenna

Guest
#23
I know i clicked on the reply button when replying to your mail. don't know what happened.
ok...using a phone maybe? anyway, not the end of the world

being raised in a Christian home does not make one a Christian. the faith of your or anyone's parents, is THEIR faith but I understand you to mean 'religion' as in any other faith. feel free to disagree

each person must decide for Christ on their own. your parents cannot save you no matter how much they believe

you quote some unrelated scripture that really does not deal with one being born a Christian

nothing we do qualifies us for righteousness before God. only accepting by faith that Jesus died in our place for the forgiveness of our sins, is what God considers righteous. this, is what scripture teaches us..a simplified version, but true
 
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#24
ok...using a phone maybe? anyway, not the end of the world

being raised in a Christian home does not make one a Christian. the faith of your or anyone's parents, is THEIR faith but I understand you to mean 'religion' as in any other faith. feel free to disagree

each person must decide for Christ on their own. your parents cannot save you no matter how much they believe

you quote some unrelated scripture that really does not deal with one being born a Christian

nothing we do qualifies us for righteousness before God. only accepting by faith that Jesus died in our place for the forgiveness of our sins, is what God considers righteous. this, is what scripture teaches us..a simplified version, but true

Being raised in a Christian home (Christian in the true sense of the word) makes one a Christian until he starts taking responsibility for his actions. The relevant scriptures i quoted are very much in order.

I can see from the bottom of my heart that we will not agree on this issue. So, let us agree to disagree instead of going to and fro.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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#25

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#26
"God made them male and female and called their name Adam." from post/part #1

He lost me when he said God named both of them ADAM!
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
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#27
Those are very long opening posts. Perhaps it would be better, meaning, you would get more responses, if you kept your OP shorter, and developed your ideas further as other members respond :)
I agree. Not that I'm less prone to wall texts on occasion.

My idea as relates to the short version of the OP in my own words is, maybe our nature is exactly what God intended from the beginning given his nature of Omniscience and all those debates and related scriptures that pertain to predestination of any sort per God's plans.

After all, why would God plant a forbidden tree in paradise?

 
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#28
"oyster67, posted

There was no death before the fall in the garden.



Exactly. Sin brought death, not God's original design.

Even after the fall, with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, his death, and resurrection, He restored us back to that pre -fall position if we really understand his teachings /the cross. We still perish today for lack of understanding.





\
 
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#29
"God made them male and female and called their name Adam." from post/part #1

He lost me when he said God named both of them ADAM!



The bible says so not me. I only quoted the relevant scripture.

We overlook that portion of the bible when discussing man's nature from biblical viewpoint but there lies the true nature of man.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
2,082
1,329
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#30
PREAMBLE
Most of us are familiar with the story of creation and the common interpretation that we are dust and to dust we shall return. Thus, signifying that man is flesh or carnal and is destined to die. And after death, as we believe, depending on our religious leaning, the spirit is freed to meet God for judgment or to return to earth to live out his life on earth or remain in the grave until the last day when the trumpet shall sound and all will arise to face judgment. The question is, what do we then say about those who never saw death? Enoch and Prophet Elijah, for example, never saw death. ( Hebrew 11: 5; 2kings2:11). This should tell us that death is not inevitable.

We know that it was sin that brought death on earth. Remove sin and death will disappear. Many Christians say that man cannot live without sinning and they quote relevant chapters of the Scripture to support their assertion. The question remains, why did Christ Jesus come in the first place? Is it not to take away the sins of the world? To redeem us from our sins and reconcile us with God our father? OR are we saying he did not die for us again? where is our believe? Where is our understanding?

The only reason man continues to sin is his belief in the material sense of things, or belief of flesh. For the flesh, as it is written, is an enemy of God and is not subject to the law of God. It is earthy and sensual and tends to vanity only. The flesh does not know God. Proverbs 23: 7 says, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. Also, Jesus taught us the power of belief. To most people who sought healing from him, he cured by saying, “according to your faith, be it unto you”. He sometimes asks, do you believe that I can do this”. In Mark 11 : 23, he tells us, whatsoever we believe without having any doubt in our hearts will come to pass.

The belief and thought that we are flesh draws us away from God and takes us deeper into the worldly or fleshly things of life for what we strongly believe in and dwell passionately upon in our thought comes to play itself out in our lives. It drives our actions. We hear ourselves say when somebody has done something wrong, “after all we are human”, thereby, trying to excuse that act on the ground that we are flesh and portraying our belief and agreement that sin is inherent in us, hence, we are bound to sin. And what happens? We continue to sin. If we center our BEING and thought on God, the Spirit of God leads and drives our actions. It quickens the soul. The soul becomes subservient to the Spirit and follows its directives. However, without the Spirit of God directing it, the soul tends to vanity, lives and cloths itself in vanity as it continually gropes in darkness. It is the Spirit of God that knows the things of God, as the bible says, and therefore, leads us according to the will of God.

From time immemorial, man has believed so much on the action of the flesh and this has had tremendous impact on how we live our lives. St John said, whosoever is born of God does not commit sin for His seed remains in him. He cannot sin because he is born of God. (1John3:9). Therefore, it is possible for man not to sin once we have our priorities right. We must refocus our passion from the things of the flesh to the things of the Spirit. We must build our faith in God and God alone. In so doing, we can mortify the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit (Romans 8:13).

WHAT BIBLE SAYS
"
In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him male and female created He them and blessed them and called their name ADAM." (Genesis 5:1-2).

When addressing man's nature from scriptural point of view, we focus attention mostly on Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2: 7 while ignoring the above chapter 5 where lies the true explanation of the nature of man. Here, Adam is gender nonspecific even when the bible tells us that God created man, male and female in his image and likeness.

God is a Spirit. (John 4:24). And, He is neither male nor female but possesses and manifests what we know as the masculine and feminine qualities or characteristics. God is not gendered as we usually say. We associate Him with Power, Might, Strength, Guidance, Protection and the like which we regard as male attributes; and Gentleness, Faithfulness, Care, Nurture, Humility and so on, which are female qualities; and Love. In love, we have the fullness of both the male and female attributes. This is the reason Love is the gateway to Christ like life.

We read above that God made them male and female and called their name Adam. Adam as God’s image and likeness is a man who possesses both the male and female attributes of God in their fullness, in union with one another and expressing them harmoniously as one body. Adam, though, not God, is in perfect unity with God, made to reflect the fullness of God on earth and blessed to have dominion over His (God’s) works on earth. It is the expression of this oneness that gives us our true identity as children of God, made in His image and likeness. In this oneness, we, in our individual capacities (and in effect collectively), are expressing the fullness of God, and our physical attributes, Names, differences or nationalities or self - will do not count and therefore play no role. In this state, as the bible says, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither bond nor free, neither male nor female (neither man nor woman) for we are one in Christ Jesus. (Galatia 3:28). In this state, we reach the measure of the standard of Christ. (Ephesians 4: 13). In this state, we are perfect. We are made perfect in one and the only way to achieve this perfection is Love; love of God and His creatures. It is this state of oneness that God symbolized as man which He named Adam. Adam and Eve’s story is therefore an allegory- true and symbolic.

This man, Adam, is Spirit - driven and incapable of sinning as he does not have the capacity, tendency or ability to sin. He has dominion and the earth is in subjection to him. It is only in this state or nature that Adam can fulfil the perfect will of God. And, this state of Adam is the true selfhood of man. It is this state of oneness Jesus showed us how to live and the Spirit continues to show us. This is the perfect man God wants us to become.
Alright I made it through part one. One read is all I've done as it is rather length in spots...less could be said and in some places more. Of course, this is just my opinion on the mystery you are interpreting. As each of us are uniquely and wonderfully made, it stands to reason that our perspectives are also.

If you said your lines in a play and played a gender neutral character...we would say out lines with different personalities and interpretations. Though the essence of the character should be perceived by observers.

So it is with scripture I think. It isn't open to a completely separate interpretation that does not agree with every precept and as a result agrees with the rest of the body as well, but to be fair, there may be some mysteries people don't have a particular burden for and have no interpretation other than what they are parroting from someone else.

Anyway, I say all that because I have thought and my heart has meditated on a lot of the same ground. You have to be careful though because these teachings are already out there in other forms that honestly...forces with darkened understanding have made their own interpretations. You have this with the ascended masters concept as well as blendings of this with the "Ubermensch" concept. I'll admit I grew up understanding this and Enoch and Elijah were my "anomalies" in the overall whole. I don't want to share too much personally, but yes I think it's possible.

I ask, could he do it again? if it's not according to his will no...but would he? Those two "conditional tenses" don't mean the same question to me but it would be difficult to explain it at present.

Would is something like an exception. Could is more like nope not my will. Can't be divided against himself, simple.


The thought did occur to me (with some bubble bursting) that what people call the rapture, if it is a thing for me, that's the same thing. Mass translation. It's not as cool as it being personal, but still cool, I won't know the difference, sold either way. But is it possible that the Lord will return not only when he is ready but we are also?
So that is encouragement to be ready. I'm impatient and some people seem not to be...

Somehow my finger slipped and this posted above...I had thought to add more. Like even if your gender assessment is true (I have considered this and had what "seem" to be revelations) it cannot be denied HE is used. So talking about this overmuch when it is not 100% clear seems irrelevant other than when someone is hung up on the gender thing. It is easy to go beyond what is written in certain areas and since we are not to do that, I just caution you on it. I only use conjecture when someone is solidly opposed to the gospel, not that all of this is. It's on the line to me. These are conclusions I have come to also but in different ways, still I am without sight and have to live by faith either way at present.

Oh, if I get my edit in time: I'll read pt 2 later.. Hehe I did
 
Last edited:

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#31
The bible says so not me. I only quoted the relevant scripture.

We overlook that portion of the bible when discussing man's nature from biblical viewpoint but there lies the true nature of man.
I suspect some trolling here.
The name 'Adam' means human. God was declaring them to be of a different substance than His created beings, angels.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#33
CONTINUED FROM THE NATURE OF MAN (PART 1)

However, it is written
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)
And the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone, I will make him an help meet. (Genesis 2:18). And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept and He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh instead thereof. And the ribs which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a woman and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, this is now the bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh, she should be called woman because she was taken out of my ribs. (Genesis 2:21-22). Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked the man and his wife and were not ashamed. (Genesis2:24-25).


.



I am in agreement with others who responded that your post is too long.

I, myself, did not read all of it, however, I did read enough of it to know that I disagree with it.

First of all, God, OUR FATHER, created a man, and a woman, distinctly different from each other, and it takes both of them to make a baby.

The judgement from God upon his elect people is given, in the form of God's chastening him, while he sojourns here on earth, and at the last day, he will not be judged, but God will say unto his elect, "enter in, ye good and faithful servant". The first, and only, death that the elect will take part in is his transition from the natural man to the new spiritual man in regeneration. When he dies fiscally, he is referred to as sleeping, because his body goes back to dust, but his soul goes back to God, who gave it, however, the wicked, will face their judgement at the last day and will taste of the second death, which will be everlasting punishment.
 
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lenna

Guest
#34
Being raised in a Christian home (Christian in the true sense of the word) makes one a Christian until he starts taking responsibility for his actions. The relevant scriptures i quoted are very much in order.

I can see from the bottom of my heart that we will not agree on this issue. So, let us agree to disagree instead of going to and fro.
I will only agree with what scripture states

it does not state what you claim

there is salvation only through the Lord Jesus Christ

you do not seem to acknowledge this, which sadly means you are not saved
 
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lenna

Guest
#35
ok

well agenda time again

goes like this: all you Christians are wrong. I was born already a real Christian and I know God in a way you do not, so I am here to help you all out. drop your Bibles and listen to me instead

nope
 
Jul 11, 2020
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#36
[QUOTE="Mii,

Alright I made it through part one. One read is all I've done as it is rather length in spots...less could be said and in some places more. Of course, this is just my opinion on the mystery you are interpreting. As each of us are uniquely and wonderfully made, it stands to reason that our perspectives are also.

If you said your lines in a play and played a gender neutral character...we would say out lines with different personalities and interpretations. Though the essence of the character should be perceived by observers.

So it is with scripture I think. It isn't open to a completely separate interpretation that does not agree with every precept and as a result agrees with the rest of the body as well, but to be fair, there may be some mysteries people don't have a particular burden for and have no interpretation other than what they are parroting from someone else.

Anyway, I say all that because I have thought and my heart has meditated on a lot of the same ground. You have to be careful though because these teachings are already out there in other forms that honestly...forces with darkened understanding have made their own interpretations. You have this with the ascended masters concept as well as blendings of this with the "Ubermensch" concept. I'll admit I grew up understanding this and Enoch and Elijah were my "anomalies" in the overall whole. I don't want to share too much personally, but yes I think it's possible.

I ask, could he do it again? if it's not according to his will no...but would he? Those two "conditional tenses" don't mean the same question to me but it would be difficult to explain it at present.

Would is something like an exception. Could is more like nope not my will. Can't be divided against himself, simple.

The thought did occur to me (with some bubble bursting) that what people call the rapture, if it is a thing for me, that's the same thing. Mass translation. It's not as cool as it being personal, but still cool, I won't know the difference, sold either way. But is it possible that the Lord will return not only when he is ready but we are also?
So that is encouragement to be ready. I'm impatient and some people seem not to be...

Somehow my finger slipped and this posted above...I had thought to add more. Like even if your gender assessment is true (I have considered this and had what "seem" to be revelations) it cannot be denied HE is used. So talking about this overmuch when it is not 100% clear seems irrelevant other than when someone is hung up on the gender thing. It is easy to go beyond what is written in certain areas and since we are not to do that, I just caution you on it. I only use conjecture when someone is solidly opposed to the gospel, not that all of this is. It's on the line to me. These are conclusions I have come to also but in different ways, still I am without sight and have to live by faith either way at present.

Oh, if I get my edit in time: I'll read pt 2 later.. Hehe I did[/QUOTE]


Though I did not understand much of your meaning in your post, I like it. I must confess I do not know much about the ascended masters or the Ubermensch" concept, for I am not into philosophical books.

I believe that the bible is complete in itself. The problem for me is not the content but the interpretation. There is a conflict of interpretations which stems from our much emphasis on the physical sense of things. The word of God, as our Lord Jesus tells us, is spirit and life. We must allow the spirit in the word to speak to us when studying or meditating on the word and must not be afraid to air our convictions even when they are not in line with conventional thinking or interpretation.

I believe that the content of my op is much in line with the scripture. What I will want to see from people who disagree are the areas of the scripture my post did not agree with, so, we can take it up from there.

I have taken note of your comment (and other's) on the length of my op.

Thanks for responding.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,577
3,615
113
#37
We need to cut this big pork-chop up into bite size pieces.
I will condense it down for everyone..

This is just another in a long line of Sinlessness in the flesh preachers that come into CC telling everyone that people can live a perfect sinless life in their current flesh in this world..

I don't know where this cult originates from but it seems to attract a lot of adherents who then go out to preach it online.. Sadly they do get their fair share of converts to their religion it seems..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,577
3,615
113
#38
Just a side issue but i love that Dog in your avatar Lenna :) a good Aussie Cattle Dog :giggle:(y)
 
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lenna

Guest
#39
Just a side issue but i love that Dog in your avatar Lenna :) a good Aussie Cattle Dog :giggle:(y)
thanks! that's not our dog, but we have one looks just like it

she is something else...super smart and she goes nowhere without her rope ball and someone to throw it for her ;)

we love her!
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,577
3,615
113
#40
thanks! that's not our dog, but we have one looks just like it

she is something else...super smart and she goes nowhere without her rope ball and someone to throw it for her ;)

we love her!
Yes they are very smart and very active.. They need both mental stimulation and exercise or else they can end up being a problem.. They are definitly not a lap dog lol