The Pre-Trib Rapture - a PRIZE for only a few

Yes He Will with us during great tribulation

But It doesn't mean rapture us.
Stephen in tribulation, and stoned to death, God not rescue his body. God interested in saving his soul rather than his earthly body

Hi Jackson!

That is a faulty conclusion. You're saying that because there are saints on the earth during the tribulation that God's wrath can't be taking place during that time. The truth is that, the reason that these saints will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they will not have been believers in Christ prior to the church being gathered. For if they had been ready, they would have been apart of the church and would have been caught up with them.

The fact is that, this group in white robes will be those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and therefore during the time of God's wrath. Since God's wrath will be upon the entire earth, then they will be exposed to it, as well as an enemy of the beast and the world. Regarding them, scripture says that they will not have loved their own lives so much as to shy away from death by keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor receive his mark.

This group is not the church, nor are they ever referred to as the church. Just like with everything, God most likely chose those who would go through the tribulation period before the world began, just as He chose who would be resurrected and caught up prior to His wrath. Israel will also be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, both the unbelieving nation of Israel and the 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel. The two witnesses will also be on the earth during the first half of the tribulation period.

Just because the tribulation will be in progress during that time, does not mean that there cannot be saints on the earth. They get their white robes because they will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not have worshiped the beast, his image and will not have received his mark. The church will be removed prior to God's tribulation/wrath, because they will have been having faith and will be watching and ready. In opposition, those who become believers after the church has been caught up, will not have been ready.

I hope this is beneficial

1. What verse say this group accepting Jesus after rapture.

You believe that 7 years tribulation is wrath If God and you believe God not wrath to His saint, then why God not rapture them as son as they believe Jesus. God can make million rapture, He can fo what ever he want.

If you are speaking of those who are Christians in name only, then this could be true. But if you are speaking about the Church (the Body of Christ), then you are contradicting Scripture.

Just as the Flood of Noah's day was reserved for the unbelieving and the ungodly, the Great Tribulation is reserved for the unbelieving and the ungodly. As for the children of God, we are told that God has NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation. And the Great Tribulation is an expression the the wrath of God against sin and wickedness on earth.

The sentence in bold contradicts Scripture. The Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

Simply because, the Lord and the apostles continue throughout scripture warning believers to be ready and watching. Because if they are not, then they will get caught in that time of wrath. There is no gathering (rapture) during the tribulation period. Jesus warns believers right here in the following scripture:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

carousing, drunkenness and the cares of this life is referring to living according to the sinful nature. He's saying that if you are not watching and ready by living that way, then the time of God's wrath will close on you like a trap. For those who are willfully living according to the sinful nature when the Lord appears to gather His church, that time period will close on them like a trap.

Those belonging to the church, who are having faith, who are watching and ready, are not appointed to suffer wrath. The fact is that, there will be people who will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. Those people will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that will be taking place on the earth after the church has been gathered.

You are correct in that, God can do whatever He wants. However, He is not going to resurrect or catch up those white-robed saints until after He returns to the earth to end the age.

What gospel ,what chapter and verse is that?

A Christian has two righteousnesses. (i) His POSITIONAL righteousness, which, as you have said, is Christ's righteousness imputed. This righteousness is very important for a number of reasons. (ii) The results of the will, or DISPOSITION of the Christian. He must be obedient to the commands of Jesus. In this, he establishes his OWN righteousness - or lack of it. It is in Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven". And in Revelation 19:7-8, for the entry into the Wedding Feast, it is;

7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints"

So every Christian stands in judgment, not for the imputed righteousness of Christ, but WHAT THEY DID AFTER CONVERSION.
Romans 14:10, 12; "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ ... So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God"
2 Corinthians 5:10; "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

It is This SECOND, DISPOSITIONAL righteousness, that the OP addresses.

Brother, I must apologize. You have every right to post as you wish, but your multiple parenthesizes in nearly every sentance make it very difficult for me to get a clear understanding of your point. If I try to answer I'll probably miss the point. I know that you know what you're talking about, but I'm not used to disjointed thoughts. As I say, probably my shortcoming.

Maybe a couple of scriptures that show this division of believers would be in order. I thought that there is only formula for conversion and only ONE BODY (Romans 12:4-5; 1st Corinthians 10:17, 12:12; Ephesians 2:16 4:4, etc. etc.).

I appreciate your scriptures but you did not address my question. Where is "heaven" in John 14:1-3?

But I will answer your scriptures anyway. In your verses was the Lord talking about going to death as a Substitute, or heaven. Let me show you the context of John 14:3.
John 13:36-38 to 14:3, 10, 20.

36 "Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
...
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
...
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

As you well know, the original texts do not have Chapter and verses. It is clear that the context of the conversation starts in 13:36. And it does NOT concern heaven. It concerns the DEATH of Jesus. Peter, in verse 37 does NOT say that he'll follow Jesus to heaven. He talks about the DEATH OF JESUS.

.

Here again is the context. As you know, the original texts have no Chapter or verse. I include them for YOUR reference, but it is all ONE CONVERSATION! John 13:36-38 to 14:3, 10, 20.

36 "Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many abodes: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
...
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
...
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

It is clear that the context of the conversation starts in 13:36. And it does NOT concern heaven. It concerns the DEATH of Jesus. Peter, in verse 37 does NOT say that he'll follow Jesus to heaven. He talks about the DEATH OF JESUS and his death. Further, the GOAL of Jesus going away is to "prepare" an "abode" that already exists. In what way will He "prepare" this abode? By painting it and correcting the plumbing in God's House? Or does it need our Lord Jesus to go to heaven to put things in the "mansions" in order? Or is the thing that is needed IS HIS BLOOD ON THE DOORPOSTS - like Egypt! What does it take to ENTER God's House? I tell you it needs AN ALTAR. See the Tabernacle or the Temple.

You have ASSUMED that God's House is heaven. For this you not only have NOT a single verses. Heaven is called HIS THRONE. ALL the verses that do define God's House ALL indicate THE CHURCH. And for a man to enter God's House and be an ABODE of the Father in it needs the blood of Christ.

You have also ignored the further words of Jesus when He plainly told WHERE HE WAS at that moment of speaking. "I AM ... " (present tense). By making Him in heaven at that moment of speaking (i) creates and absurdity, and (ii) contradicts His own words that HE IS IN THE FATHER and THE FATHER IN HIM.

You have also ignored the remainder of the context of John 14. That is, how God gets a AN-other Comforter INSIDE of man - the Holy Spirit. This happens in John 20:22 in perfect fulfillment of John 14.

Good question. The OP addressed those living at the time of the Great Tribulation. So my argument was built for that. But within my argument was HOW TO AVOID GOD'S WRATH. It was built to show that being a diligent Christian, obedient to our Head, and in an intimate relationship with Him, we can MISS God's wrath. The THREAT I proposed was aimed at the slovenly, slothful, sinning Christian who is disobedient to the leading of the Head. I showed a REWARD for the living faithful, and a dreadful scenario if a Christian was found not connected very intimately with Christ.

For your question, we have another set of circumstances. We have scriptures that deal with the DEAD Christians. We know that through the centuries, millions of Christians have lived and died, some as martyrs, some not. During this time, they faced MEN'S WRATH, some unto death, and some not. But the SAME METHOD was given to ALL - that is; "deny yourselves and take up your cross daily". And; "If any man would come after me let him LOSE HIS SOUL-LIFE". So all that remians to be shown is WHAT IS THE REWARD OF THE FAITHFUL DEAD?

To show this I need to do one simple thing. In Genesis 1.26-28 God made man for two things. (i) To be in His image and likeness, and (ii) to subdue and rule the earth. When a man is saved, he is saved from (i) not being in God's image and likeness, so the saved are "predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ" (Rom.8:29), and (ii) not being a co-king with Christ ON THE EARTH. One is a matter of being saved in matters of our fallen humanity, and the other is a matter of INHERITING the EARTH (Rom.4:13). The matter of being saved from our fallen humanity is fully a Work of Christ. Having sins put away and our character changed is by the work of Christ on the cross and the application of His life by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:3-6; 2nd Cor.3:18; Rom.8:11). But in the matter of RULING with Christ, we need (i) Training, and (ii) Proof of obedience.

A Kingdom is defined as a sphere where a certain king dwells and where his will is executed. God is King in heaven and His will is carried out. But on earth, God is a King but His will is not carried out. So our Lord prays; "THY (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), thy WILL be done on EARTH as it is in heaven." Since Adam, fallen men have ruled the earth. For a short period of just under 1,000 years, men who had God's Law ruled a small, but choice part of the earth - Israel. But after Israel's collapse the Gentiles rule till this day. According to the prophets, this will not always be so. Daniel especially predicts a time when Gentile rule will be crushed and a Kingdom of God, run by His People, will be established (Dan.2:44, etc.).

God, in His wisdom, and ever honoring the free will of men, sets the rule of this coming Kingdom AS A REWARD to His People. Jesus first approached Israel with this Kingdom, but they rejected it and the King. They are banned from ruling, and even themselves are to be ruled by a New Man "created in Christ" (Matt.21:43). This New Man is the Church. But within the Church are all manner of men - some vessels to honor and some to dishonor. These men are saved by FAITH - FOR ruling. The Salvation is for free and by faith, but the ruling is a REWARD. To save a long posting, I will not enter any detail, but all the parables and teachings of Jesus about this Kingdom show that SOME will be co-kings with Jesus (e.g. Matt.24:44-51) and SOME will not. I every case, there are multiple proofs that men and women who are saved and who were (i) obedient, and (ii) submitted to the fiery training in this life, will be REWARDED by being co-kings with Christ when He comes (see Luke 19:17-19).

My answer to your question is; If you are interested in being REWARDED for being a Good Christian, you will need a certain walk with Christ - WHETHER YOU ARE DEAD, OR WHETHER YOU ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. If you are alive at the end of this age and you want to miss the Great Tribulation, you need to be doing just the SAME THING.

Examples will follow if you want them.

Go well bro.

Thanks. You are correct. No one has answered them yet, so I'm happy to be at posting # 1. Oh, it's not that there has been a lack of writing and lack of opinions, but nobody has taken those verses and shown them to mean something else than they are within their contexts. We're up to 74 postings now without a single one that gives an unemotional exegesis of the sentences in question.

Amen bro. A clever choice of words - "pew-warmers". It has the connotation of "lukewarm" (Rev.3:16).

Go well and God bless

I don't know how you can separate intended purpose from requirements. There are always requirements:

• Intended purpose - "walk on holy ground". Requirement - "put off your shoes".
• Intended purpose - "See the Kingdom". Requirement - "be born again"
• Intended purpose - create a "Help Meet". Requirement - the "Help" must be "meet". All the wonderful animals are paraded past Adam, and he finds NONE with the requirement of "up to the standard of" (the meaning of "meet")
• Intended purpose - "a Wife for a God-Man". Requirement - None! A fallen man will do .... Perish the thought!

Romans 8:29: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Revelation 18:4; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Seems like you have replaced the word "appointed" with "guaranteed". 600,000 fighting men of Israel were saved by the blood of the Lamb to inherit the Good Land. TWO MADE IT.

Gospel, chapter and verse regarding what? I said several different things in that post.

And does everyone keep the commands of Jesus perfectly? The answer is NO! Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. As we continue in faith we are being transformed into the Lord's image, which is a life-long process, also referred to as the sanctification of the Spirit, which is the process of being made holy. The following scripture makes it clear that we are not perfect:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

We're saved in our current sinful nature. There is however a difference between the believer who is continuing in faith and being transformed into the image of Christ vs. the believer who has gone back into the world and is willfully practicing sin. The latter has wandered away from the truth and is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. The believer who is not willfully practicing sin, is still a sinner simply because of his/her sinful nature. We still stumble, but we confess it and continue on with Christ.

You are correct! And do you know what the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees was? They were traditionalist, which nullified the word of God. As Jesus said to them, "you nullify the word of God by your traditions."

7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints"

Click to expand...

Yes, the fine linen, white and pure represents the righteous acts of the saints. While we are still living this life, in Christ God sees us a perfect, not because of anything that we have done, but because of Christ's righteousness. Let me make it clear, we are not saved by our righteous acts. We are saved by having faith in Christ as the One who paid the penalty for our sins. The good works that we do is to glorify God and which we will be rewarded for.

Currently we are covered sinners who as we continue in Christ are in the process of being made holy through the Spirit. This process will come to its fulfillment at the resurrection where we will be changed immortal and glorified.

Yes, believers will be judged, but not for our sins, because Jesus was already held accountable for them, past, present and future. The judgement for those in Christ, will be to receive reward or loss of reward, based on our works. Our sins have already been forgiven and therefore they will not be brought up at the Bema Seat of Christ. This is in stark contrast to those who will be resurrected and stand at the great white throne judgment, for they will be judged for every sin they committed. So, for the believer, Jesus was held accountable for our sins. Those who rejected Him, they will be held accountable for their own sins. All sin must be accounted for.

What is your purpose regarding your posts anyway? It seems that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Sure, ONE of the verses I may have selected pertained to His death, but surely not all of the ones I selected referred to that...

I would think the question could be more centered on His statement, "I GO to prepare A PLACE..." (which I am not saying is a particular LOCATION as much as a POSITION, and being distinct from the phrase spoken to another/distinct group "HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you *FROM [apo] the foundation of the world" [not "*BEFORE [pro]" spoken of others elsewhere!]).

Consider:

John 13:1 - "Now before the feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved the own who were in the world, He loved them to the end."

John 13:3 - "Jesus knowing that all things the Father hath given to him -- into his hands, and that from God he came forth, and unto God he goeth,"

[that's ^ said in John 13... He didn't suddenly "forget" by the time John 14 rolled around ]


John 16:28 - "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father."


[and said earlier...]

John 8:14 - "Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I am bearing witness concerning Myself, My testimony is true, because I know from where I came and where I am going. But you do not know from where I come or where I am going."

John 8:42 - "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for not even have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."




John 17:8 - "For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me."

John 17:11a - "And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You."

John 17:13 - "But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them."

[those ^ verses talk about where He was presently getting ready to "GO" / "GO AWAY" to]


THIS verse [below], does not refer to that, though:

John 17:24 - "Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where ['in whatever spot'] I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before [pro] the foundation of the world."


IOW, Jesus would not be thereafter LIMITING Himself to "HEAVEN" alone, but "IN WHATEVER SPOT I am"... for example: "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." - Acts 3:21

[further] Ex. "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those having fallen asleep." ~ "the Lord Himself SHALL DESCEND..." ~ "caught away together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR..." ~ "when He shall RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal [G347], i.e. the earthly MK age... so you can see He's not to be limited to one sphere alone (Heaven) just because He was going to go there after the Cross ... but He was indeed going there after the Cross.



Then we have Eph1:10, which is not speaking of "in this present age," but of "the fulness of the times" (yet future)... "for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together [G346 - 'properly, head-up, summing up all the parts as a comprehensive (organized) whole'] all things in Christ--the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth"... that is, the glory of God in two spheres...





[I hope this has somewhat covered the few posts of yours that were responses to mine... and I did endeavor to cut down on the "explanatory parentheses" and so forth ... my apologies for that... it's just that I find the need to explain terms that are often "automatically assumed" to mean something else, when they do not... like the very common thought that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is located UP IN Heaven, when it is actually referring to the EARTHLY MK age, or at least its "inauguration"--but without "explaining" that in my comments, just saying "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" by itself, people conjure up an "idea" that I myself have NOT intended to convey]