No one helplessly falls away from Christ - it's a choice

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throughfaith

Well-known member
#41
Aug 4, 2020
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#41
MyrtleTrees said:
Many sincere Christians believe this. But this isn't what I see in the Bible. It's true that as long as one makes the choice, prayerfully, to remain in Christ - they are safe and are kept from falling away. But there's evidence that not all new converts do remain faithful to Him and there's evidence that some do fall away. Look at a list of verses on the subject of how some fall away and how the scriptures warn believers from falling away (there is no longer danger of it happening to those who have been proven through hardships, and have become solidly fully surrendered to God, though):

https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away
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Its not great to post a link that can easily be countered with an opposing link .
 
MyrtleTrees

MyrtleTrees

Junior Member
#42
Sep 5, 2014
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#42
throughfaith said:
Again this is not biblical .We are saved by faith ,not our promises and works. Salvation is secured by the sealing of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, not our loyalty and obedience. This is the problem with Lordship salvation. On the surface it sounds good and pious . But its nothing more than virtue signalling and legalism .
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I respect your views on the subject, but don't think they are quite correct, as to me, in order to remain in the Lord, it requires both our belief in His salvation, and also "works" - meaning our obedience and regular sincere repentance of sins.

James 2:20-21

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Matt 7:16-17

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
KJV
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#43
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#43
MyrtleTrees said:
I respect your views on the subject, but don't think they are quite correct, as to me, in order to remain in the Lord, it requires both our belief in His salvation, and also "works" - meaning our obedience and regular sincere repentance of sins.

James 2:20-21

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Matt 7:16-17

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
KJV
Click to expand...
Thankfully we are saved by Jesus and sealed by the Holy Spirit until!!!! the day of redemption and not on our fruit . After all if all our fruit was placed on the scales we would all be lost . Thats why Jesus had to do it .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#44
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#44
MyrtleTrees said:
I respect your views on the subject, but don't think they are quite correct, as to me, in order to remain in the Lord, it requires both our belief in His salvation, and also "works" - meaning our obedience and regular sincere repentance of sins.

James 2:20-21

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Matt 7:16-17

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
KJV
Click to expand...
Mathew 7 is all about false prophets.
 
Lookupnotback

Lookupnotback

Active member
#45
Sep 26, 2020
169
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#45
MyrtleTrees said:
Many sincere Christians explain it as you do. But they fail to see that although we are saved by God's grace - His grace is not available to those who do not sincerely accept His lordship over their lives. It helps to study all that the scriptures say on the subject of the way of salvation and of how to keep it, and to compare them, without nullifying the truth of either aspect. While Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world - it is only those who sincerely repent, who can be recipients of salvation through His grace. They need to initially repent in their hearts, and have the desire to change for the better. On that basis, if that is true of them, and they accept Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of their life - they are saved. But to keep saved, one needs to prayerfully remain in their relationship with God, and to not willfully drift away from it.


There are numerous warnings against falling away from Christ, throughout the New Testament. So it's clear there are ways to prevent it from happening. See a long list of verses on the subject:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away
Click to expand...
The heart of man is deceitfully wicked and yours is deceiving you in thinking you play a role in your salvation, this is the false pride we all are challenged by same as satan in wanting to be Hod and Eve in thinking when God gave to her everything but the fruit of the tree? That she was being held back on and missing out on something....she had been given the entire world to do with as she pleased. If we are God’s children? We will want to please him and yet, the old nature is still within us and so we fail. Continually drop the ball as it were? And sin, this is why Christ gave himself up on the cross for us to buy us from out of our sin despite our desire to kick at him even....before “He” changed our hearts and put the ability within us to want to place him as head over our lives. Yes, we have a responsibility in behaving properly but it is false pride to think you had any part to play whatsoever in your salvation when he tells us by his own lips that the faith to believe is a gift, so that no man may boast of his own doing. I you are not humbled enough to see that? Then the scales of a works form of religion are still upon your eyes as Saul on the road headed to persecute christians.....
 
Lookupnotback

Lookupnotback

Active member
#46
Sep 26, 2020
169
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#46
MyrtleTrees said:
Many sincere Christians explain it as you do. But they fail to see that although we are saved by God's grace - His grace is not available to those who do not sincerely accept His lordship over their lives. It helps to study all that the scriptures say on the subject of the way of salvation and of how to keep it, and to compare them, without nullifying the truth of either aspect. While Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world - it is only those who sincerely repent, who can be recipients of salvation through His grace. They need to initially repent in their hearts, and have the desire to change for the better. On that basis, if that is true of them, and they accept Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of their life - they are saved. But to keep saved, one needs to prayerfully remain in their relationship with God, and to not willfully drift away from it.


There are numerous warnings against falling away from Christ, throughout the New Testament. So it's clear there are ways to prevent it from happening. See a long list of verses on the subject:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/falling_away
Click to expand...
Do you really think someone or thing can take away from God, what he has marked as his? All the warnings are to the falsely seduced into thinking they are saved in the 1st place. In theory a young christian could be loured away through going places they shouldn’t? But then you bring in the the idea that a child of God could be taken away from him....that is utter foolishness & a complete lack of understanding of the power of God and his control over everything, nothing happens without his oking it in the 1st place.
 
Encouragement

Encouragement

Well-known member
#47
Aug 25, 2020
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#47
Wasn't one of jesus temptations to with satan temping him to jump off of the temple believing he would be fine as satan quote scripture to him saying "God will commend his angels to help you,and their hands will catch you,so that you will not hit your foot on a rock"
Yet jesus replied back saying "You must not test the lord your God"..
So even from this account we see that we do have a degree of spiritual responsibility not be presumptuous about Gods word though it is packs with many truths concerning the security of our salvation.
Unfortunately some Christians have even committed suicide as a result of depression,feeling trapped in various situations ect....there have been numerous debates about weither or not if a Christian commits suicide what is the status of their salvation having "murdered themselves"..and many of these individuals are Christian's who had been genuinly saved yet something terrible happened in their lives.
Point is..There is an element of responsibility that we have within the framework of our salvation and the choices we make does have an impact on our lives and to just presume that because scripture says certain things pertaining to our salvation one can be recklessly and irresponsible with ones life isnt what the scriptures also teach.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#48
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#48
MyrtleTrees said:
I respect your views on the subject, but don't think they are quite correct, as to me, in order to remain in the Lord, it requires both our belief in His salvation, and also "works" - meaning our obedience and regular sincere repentance of sins.

James 2:20-21

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
KJV

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
KJV

Matt 7:16-17

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
KJV
Click to expand...
There's so many ways to look at the book of James . But in no way does it say that in order for a person ' in christ ' has to have works in order to be saved . Other wise the thief
Encouragement said:
Wasn't one of jesus temptations to with satan temping him to jump off of the temple believing he would be fine as satan quote scripture to him saying "God will commend his angels to help you,and their hands will catch you,so that you will not hit your foot on a rock"
Yet jesus replied back saying "You must not test the lord your God"..
So even from this account we see that we do have a degree of spiritual responsibility not be presumptuous about Gods word though it is packs with many truths concerning the security of our salvation.
Unfortunately some Christians have even committed suicide as a result of depression,feeling trapped in various situations ect....there have been numerous debates about weither or not if a Christian commits suicide what is the status of their salvation having "murdered themselves"..and many of these individuals are Christian's who had been genuinly saved yet something terrible happened in their lives.
Point is..There is an element of responsibility that we have within the framework of our salvation and the choices we make does have an impact on our lives and to just presume that because scripture says certain things pertaining to our salvation one can be recklessly and irresponsible with ones life isnt what the scriptures also teach.
Click to expand...
Jesus died for all sins . including suicide .
I meant to say the theif on the cross had no works .
 
Encouragement

Encouragement

Well-known member
#49
Aug 25, 2020
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#49
throughfaith said:
There's so many ways to look at the book of James . But in no way does it say that in order for a person ' in christ ' has to have works in order to be saved . Other wise the thief
Jesus died for all sins . including suicide .
Click to expand...
That's not the point and you know it too..Jesus died for ALL sins but does that mean I can do what I like..and think well jesus die for all sins so theres no consequence for what I do.?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#50
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#50
Encouragement said:
Wasn't one of jesus temptations to with satan temping him to jump off of the temple believing he would be fine as satan quote scripture to him saying "God will commend his angels to help you,and their hands will catch you,so that you will not hit your foot on a rock"
Yet jesus replied back saying "You must not test the lord your God"..
So even from this account we see that we do have a degree of spiritual responsibility not be presumptuous about Gods word though it is packs with many truths concerning the security of our salvation.
Unfortunately some Christians have even committed suicide as a result of depression,feeling trapped in various situations ect....there have been numerous debates about weither or not if a Christian commits suicide what is the status of their salvation having "murdered themselves"..and many of these individuals are Christian's who had been genuinly saved yet something terrible happened in their lives.
Point is..There is an element of responsibility that we have within the framework of our salvation and the choices we make does have an impact on our lives and to just presume that because scripture says certain things pertaining to our salvation one can be recklessly and irresponsible with ones life isnt what the scriptures also teach.
Click to expand...
What has Jesus's temptations have to do with us ? Jesus also fulfilled the law , fullfilled all righteousness. He never sinned . He also died for the sins of the world . All of this we cannot do . Jesus did it all .
 
Lookupnotback

Lookupnotback

Active member
#51
Sep 26, 2020
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#51
Encouragement said:
Wasn't one of jesus temptations to with satan temping him to jump off of the temple believing he would be fine as satan quote scripture to him saying "God will commend his angels to help you,and their hands will catch you,so that you will not hit your foot on a rock"
Yet jesus replied back saying "You must not test the lord your God"..
So even from this account we see that we do have a degree of spiritual responsibility not be presumptuous about Gods word though it is packs with many truths concerning the security of our salvation.
Unfortunately some Christians have even committed suicide as a result of depression,feeling trapped in various situations ect....there have been numerous debates about weither or not if a Christian commits suicide what is the status of their salvation having "murdered themselves"..and many of these individuals are Christian's who had been genuinly saved yet something terrible happened in their lives.
Point is..There is an element of responsibility that we have within the framework of our salvation and the choices we make does have an impact on our lives and to just presume that because scripture says certain things pertaining to our salvation one can be recklessly and irresponsible with ones life isnt what the scriptures also teach.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is where bondage to favoured sins comes in and so we are taken off course for submission of our will to Hod and so the ability of the Holy Spirit to work both in us and through us to shine out to the world around us and so hampering the works we are to be about for the coming of the kingdom of God.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#52
Aug 4, 2020
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#52
Encouragement said:
That's not the point and you know it too..Jesus died for ALL sins but does that mean I can do what I like..and think well jesus die for all sins so theres no consequence for what I do.?
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Where have I said we can do what we want ? Consequences? what fruit did you have from sins before you were saved ? consequences are still in place, such as divorce, Jail , loss of family , loss of life , misery , pain, debt ect . A Christian is not immune to sin s effects . He is just never to be separated from God .
 
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throughfaith

Well-known member
#53
Aug 4, 2020
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#53
Encouragement said:
That's not the point and you know it too..Jesus died for ALL sins but does that mean I can do what I like..and think well jesus die for all sins so theres no consequence for what I do.?
Click to expand...
What consequences do you mean ? hell ?
 
Lookupnotback

Lookupnotback

Active member
#54
Sep 26, 2020
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#54
throughfaith said:
Where have I said we can do what we want ? Consequences? what fruit did you have from sins before you were saved ? consequences are still in place, such as divorce, Jail , loss of family , loss of life , misery , pain, debt ect . A Christian is not immune to sin s effects . He is just never to be separated from God .
Click to expand...
...and a true Christian is not separated from Hod but the slipping and placing of lives sins ahead of God’s design for us? Can neuter the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach us mission Into God’s will for us and effectual light sharing to the world around us.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#55
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#55
Lookupnotback said:
...and a true Christian is not separated from Hod but the slipping and placing of lives sins ahead of God’s design for us? Can neuter the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach us mission Into God’s will for us and effectual light sharing to the world around us.
Click to expand...
We are sealed regardless of performance.
 
Encouragement

Encouragement

Well-known member
#56
Aug 25, 2020
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#56
throughfaith said:
Where have I said we can do what we want ? Consequences? what fruit did you have from sins before you were saved ? consequences are still in place, such as divorce, Jail , loss of family , loss of life , misery , pain, debt ect . A Christian is not immune to sin s effects . He is just never to be separated from God .
Click to expand...
I never said that you said we can do what we want?However in your response to me mentioning about the sad reality that some Christians have committed suicide and there have been various debates concerning the persons position before God from killing themselves..you just replied that jesus died for all sins including suicide.
So my response to that comment was that does this mean that we can do what we want ie suiduce coz this was the context to your commenting that jesus died for all sins...(of course he did) ..so a Christian who commits suicide that act has no consequence of their eternal future spiritually...coz you comment Sens to suggest that it doesnt.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#57
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#57
Encouragement said:
I never said that you said we can do what we want?However in your response to me mentioning about the sad reality that some Christians have committed suicide and there have been various debates concerning the persons position before God from killing themselves..you just replied that jesus died for all sins including suicide.
So my response to that comment was that does this mean that we can do what we want ie suiduce coz this was the context to your commenting that jesus died for all sins...(of course he did) ..so a Christian who commits suicide that act has no consequence of their eternal future spiritually...coz you comment Sens to suggest that it doesnt.
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A believer can never go to hell . Does that answer your question?
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#58
Sep 27, 2018
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#58
There are the redeemed and the pretenders. I like these words Jesus directed to the redeemed.
2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
 
Lookupnotback

Lookupnotback

Active member
#59
Sep 26, 2020
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#59
throughfaith said:
A believer can never go to hell . Does that answer your question?
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...but the fallen angels “believe”, so that statement you make needs more fleshing out so people are not seduced by false beliefs!-)
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#60
Jul 8, 2018
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#60
Lookupnotback said:
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
So you see? It is not our doing but God’s handwork is salvation and the very ability to believe (which is through faith), is a gift from God....and so people can have “spiritual”, experiences and such but not be redeemed at all but just in a place of “church” type words and emotionalism’s seductive snare, thinking they are children of God buuuut the sad truth is they are children still of their father of lies and just serving some sort of emotional tripping’s course of destruction:(
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We must be careful in determining who is and who is not regenerated children of God. David, as king of Israel (God's regenerated children) got himself into a lot of trouble with God for trying to number Israel, and as his punishment from God, caused thousands of Israelites to lose their lives.
 
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