Speculation for a seemingly biblical contradiction

“Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him" reads Genesis 5:22–24

2 Kings 2:11, "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.".

In John 3:13, Jesus tells us the following: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13)

Might I speculate about this seemingly biblical contradiction? First let me say, I’m attempting to in no way take from, or add too the biblical scriptures. My opinions here are simply speculation ^ pure unproven opinion, & I welcome all to speculate with me.

It seems that common sense would have it that Enoch and Elijah either “ascended” to earth from heaven, or didn’t go to heaven. I’m subscribing to the latter with pure speculation. I speculate that in the Father’s House are many mansions, i.e. “Other worlds,” i.e. planets, thus I’m speculating that Enoch & Elijah were taken by the Lord to other perfect worlds in God’s great universe? What’s your opinion?

The context should answer the seeming contradiction. Here is the full text. John 3:7-17

7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

The indications of what is being said here are somewhat hidden, but here they are.

1. The sequence in verse 13. First is "ASCENDING" in verse 13. In our understanding, Jesus should have said that He had DESCENDED FROM heaven
2. The tense in verse 13. The "son of man IS in heaven" - present tense. But at that moment Jesus was on earth.

But first we must establish why our Lord Jesus accused Nicodemus. Does the Old Testament reveal the rebirth? It does - in at least two places. The Book of John is written for one reason alone. That reason is found in John 20:30-31;

30 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

The reason John is written is to achieve what was suspended at the Gate of Eden. Man was to have access to the Tree of LIFE. What happens when we eat fruit. The body starts a process whereby we become organically one with the fruit. The NATURE of the fruit is organically MIXED with us. If you cut open the eater after a day, you will not find the fruit anywhere. It has become ONE with the man. And thus was God's plan. Adam was a perfect human. But he was missing the decisive ingredient to be really like God - God's LIFE and God's NATURE. Eve settles it for us. After God had paraded all the living creatures before Adam, and he had inspected them and named them, not one was found "MEET" for him. "MEET" means "up to the standard of". For Eve to be "up to the standard of Adam", she had to possess his SUBSTANCE and his NATURE. So also, to be in the likeness and image of God, we need to be INFUSED organically with God's Nature. This does not mean that we ARE God, but that we are humans with the capability to display and project God. Nicodemus should have known this.

What Nicodemus should also have known is the lesson of the Bronze Serpent in Numbers 21. Israel murmured. Serpents bit them. The death that caught up with the bitten coursed in their veins. The bitten had intrinsic death in them. The issue was not the wound as if a lion had bitten them. It was the very "death-nature" that coursed in them that was the problem. So when God solved the problem by FAITH in the Bronze Serpent, it does not say that the bitten WERE HEALED! It says "THEY LIVED". The hanging of the Bronze Serpent on a wooden pole as a substitute, caused imminent DEATH to change to LIFE (Nu.22:8). And what was the rebirth for? Nicodemus should have clicked that man does not need HEALING from his Adamic nature. He needs a NEW LIFE - one that operates out of the SEAT of human life - the human spirit (Jas.2:26).

There are more examples like the Manna and the various Offerings that Israelites ATE and became organically one with. But Israel had made the fatal error of not recognizing that the Adamic nature could not be fixed by the law of Moses. The Law was "unto life" (Rom.7:10), but it addressed the utterly weak flesh. Nicodemus, an educated man at his peak after 1,500 years of proof that men could not keep the Law, did not have a clue why the bronze serpent was "lifted up". So our Lord told him that he did not comprehend because it was a matter hatched in heaven. And it was hatched by "WE" (Jn.3:11). Who is a "WE" and domicile in heaven? Why, the TRIUNE GOD - Father Son and Holy Spirit. From this August source comes the original plan to INFUSE man with God's LIFE. And no MAN has ascended to heaven to be a WITNESS of this plan. It is not a contradictory word against Enoch and Elijah. It is about WHO is in heaven who WITNESSED this plan in the making.

The mean is NOT that no man has ascended, but that no one ascended to witness the plan except the Son of man Who WAS IN HEAVEN AT THE TIME (present tense) and Who goes there to accomplish it. So the sequence is:

• Jesus is born to a woman but not man. He is thus 100% man but does not have Adam's blood coursing in his veins
• Jesus leads a perfect life under Law to make Him eligible to die for men who could not
• Jesus dies as a perfect, unblemished Substitute. He is "lifted up" on a wooden pole.
• Jesus, Who has no sin, is judged as a Serpent. But He is a bronze Serpent because He does not have the nature of a snake
• Jesus must be resurrected to be proof that every little sin was dealt with
• Jesus must "ascend" first to present His blood to the Father (Heb.9:12). This He does before the woman may touch Him
• Jesus "descends" that evening and BREATHES the Holy Spirit INTO His disciples
• His disciples are NOT healed but RECEIVE (DIVINE) LIFE
• The plan hatched in heaven, to which the Triune God ALONE was "witness" is accomplished
• Since then believers are "partakers of the divine life" - 2nd Peter 1:4

Jesus was both man and God, and John 3:13 is not contradictory to Elijah or Enoch, because when God took them he only took their spirit to heaven. What God did with their bodies, I do not know, But Jesus is the only man that will enter into heaven. When we are all called out of our graves, we will be changed, for this corruptible must put on incorruptible, and this mortal must put on immortality, 1 Cor 15:52-54.

ROBO:
John 3:13 does not teach that no one has ever seen or entered heaven. It teaches that no man ever climbed up into heaven by his own power. The only one who has ever ascended to heaven in His own strength is the One who originated in heaven and came down to earth before He ascended. I hope this helps explain the verse to you.

Taking one verse out of the context of the message always produces confusion or worse...some bad doctrine.
Since your question was not original with you (as you are well aware)......and as this "problem" has been posed many times before on-line, I can only assume you desire to cause strife and doubt among the weak in faith. Shame.

Studying the scripture requires more diligence than just cherry picking two or three single-sentence verses, ignoring context, then placing them on a pedestal to be scrutinized.

The Bible is written in a way that requires searching the scriptures, studying the scriptures, and rightly handling the word of truth.

So my encouragement to you is to read some of the responses here as they seem like they have done a good job at answering your question. 🙏🏻

Judge not lest ye be judged! Your accusation revels a suspicious opinion I'll attempt to ignore and forgive you for going forward,

Or, perhaps he has not read any of the other "many times" the question has been asked, and is truly curious. Or, perhaps he has read some of them and just disagrees with the "answer" given... Personally, I don't think your answer makes much sense, either....but we are each entitled to our opinions.

I am among the first to call "troll" on people, but his OP did not seem "trollish" to me... I could be wrong, though.

I've been a believer for over 50 years, and I STILL find things that are curious in the word. We should give him the benefit of the doubt, until he proves one way or the other his true intentions.

But you have no opinion yourself right? Thus far I see little to no unraveling of "SEEMINGLY" contradictory scripture that I can hang my hat on here so far. However, I do detect animosity and opinions insinuating I'm simply a carrier of Satan's temptations to steer the forum toward hell and damnation. I'm beginning to regret attempting to seek Christian fellowship here.

I thank you hornetguy! It's nice to find some true christian support here. I'll forgive the suspicious minded. Seems the place has a particular virus all its own, Troll hunting! I'm 84 years old and haven't a clue how to be a troll. Does a troll become a troll simply by proposing questions here? Just asking!

Just trying to help you carry a proper perspective on God's word. Your profile says you're a Christian so what that normally means is you hold the view that all scripture is given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and is God-breathed and therefore inerrant.

When a perceived contradiction comes up, especially as one as hashed out as the one you proposed, it's an error in our understanding and judgement. It isn't an error in the word of God as you seem to be suggesting.

I'm just trying to encourage you. I'm sorry you feel there is a sense of animosity. I assure you, at least on my part, it's constructive criticism and I have nothing against you. I hope you'll stay, but I suppose if you aren't open to be corrected maybe a public forum isn't for you.

Actually that is a fasinating theory. I have no scriptural evidence of this but I had a dream where it felt like I was actually in the spirituasl realm I have actually had several dreams where it felt like that but in this particular one we went through a door or rather I did following an unseen spirit and was then in a heavenly place but it wasn't heaven it felt more like a haven or place of safe keeping it was so wonderful God knows my love of nature and everything there was so much more vivid than anything here the blades of grass were like silk on your feet and the most beautiful deep green you can imagine flowers and all kinds of things of beauty were everywhere

Trees with fruits I have never seen streams of living water birds and creatures like deer and even friendly lions you can cuddle with and night and morning and day still happened but each time of day had a beautiful aspect to it I loved the paths you could walk on at night with fireflies and glowing lamps everywhere and best of all God's presence was everywhere and I played with the holy spirit himself in a lake of living water.like a small child and well you get the idea but though it isn't often everytime I go into a dream like this it is always through a door of some kind

I think maybe it is possible that you know how everyone says everyone has their own kind of heaven like with the many mansions? I think maybe it isn't heaven but haven

You are on the right track imo.
They both went to the pinnacle of human life on earth. Death did not have a hold there and it is a place God made for man to live and perfect the natural powers God created human life to have. It's symbolized by the top of mountains because it is the summit of human flesh. That is before the Incarnation.
Elijah was seen in the light of the Transfiguration on top of the mountain. In that light the Apostles could see where he is. It's a place up there that we fell from and a place we don't die.

You know I think I will try looking into this but in the original hebrew text I am sure there is a online translator somewhere I think I used it before

Some of your posts look that way to me...

I see I am not alone in my assessment

Seems like Paradise to me. Love emanates from all things because the powers of holy angels govern the universe and there it is naturally received. There, human nature is not wounded by sin.

I believe the biblical scriptures are the word of God. I also determine by common sense and natural curiosity as the free thinking being God hath created, that biblical scripture may well have delivered some “seeming” unexplained contradictions simply through its interpretations from other languages, or there’s truly other scripture within its pages that give explanations I’m unaware of, and that alone is why I come here, for the alleged Christian fellowship and hopeful understanding. I’m beginning to have my doubts such dwells here.

I’m relatively new here and am unaware that this topic has been discussed and debated here to a glazing over of one’s eyes. I apologize!

Have not studied this in a while and I need a more full study but how I see it is

Revelation 4:4, “And around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, dressed in white robes. And they had crowns of gold on their heads.”

Matthew 27:50-53, “50 And יהושע cried out again with a loud voice, and gave up His spirit. 51 And see, the veil of the Dwelling Place was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split, 52 and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the set-apart ones who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the set-apart city and appeared to many.”

Revelation 11:15-16, “And the seventh messenger sounded, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever! And the twenty-four elders sitting before Elohim on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped Elohim.”

Revelation 19:4-6, “And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshipped Elohim who sat on the throne, saying, “Amĕn! Halleluyah!” And a voice came from the throne, saying, “Praise our Elohim, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!” And I heard as the voice of a great crowd, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunders, saying, “Halleluyah, for יהוה Ěl Shaddai reigns!”

Enoch, Elijah, possibly Mosheh and I supposed the rest of the elders were translated, where Yahshua/Jesus was not. We don;t have all the details but this is what I think is most likely.

Thank's Blain, beautiful testimony. I'd love a dream such. I think God has many, many "other worlds. In a scientific context, it's easily pictured by me as other planets in other solar systems with God's perfect creations and perfect love and absolute justice, those things we lack here. It's easy for me to picture those that God has taken alive from our cursed and evil planet enjoying a perfect world on a perfect planet elsewhere.

Might it be that Enoch, Elijah, along with others of our faith in love, truth, and justice, who have gone up into heaven are those under the altar in heaven (Revelation 6:9-11), and are not fully entered into what is the Father's temple (Revelation 15:8), until His wrath upon the faithless is complete?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.