Today’s church’s misunderstandings

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Scribe said:
It's not that hard to understand. Just read Acts 15.
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Acts 15 does not say that God did not mean it when he gave the feasts to all men. God had the prophets repeat over and over he was speaking to the foreigners among them, also. God did not make one world with one set of ways it was to operate and a separate world for his chosen people. The feasts are not a custom of the Jews that is not to be honored unless you are Jewish.

All the customs that we do not need to follow were like being guided on a walk to a destination. Cutting foreskin was to mark belonging to God and eating only pure foods was to guide to keeping pure. The feasts do not lead to a spiritual truth, they are to honor Christ, God's salvation of our souls. The Lord tells us they are for all generations.
 
^ when you say "us", you mean Israel, the nation that the O.T. is about.

because, as i have pointed out to you before, in Leviticus 26, God spoke of the Covenant He made with " the fathers of those who came out of egypt"'

so, once again, unless you can trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that covenant ( which contained all Laws, statues, and festivals and sacred calendar by which they were kept) was NOT for you, and gentiles were and are never under it.
 
Blik said:
Acts 15 does not say that God did not mean it when he gave the feasts to all men. God had the prophets repeat over and over he was speaking to the foreigners among them, also. God did not make one world with one set of ways it was to operate and a separate world for his chosen people. The feasts are not a custom of the Jews that is not to be honored unless you are Jewish.
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The Passover was clearly not for all people. Why do you think other feasts would be different?

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Blik said:
All the customs that we do not need to follow were like being guided on a walk to a destination. Cutting foreskin was to mark belonging to God and eating only pure foods was to guide to keeping pure. The feasts do not lead to a spiritual truth, they are to honor Christ, God's salvation of our souls. The Lord tells us they are for all generations.
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Isn't the removal of uncleanliness in physical circumcision a symbol of removing the sinful nature from the heart, and therefore just as honouring to God as the feasts were honouring to him of His salvation? If so, how then can (physical) circumcision be put aside, but the feasts not? Surely they go together?
 
I wonder who is right, those who say much of the OT is for Jews only, and those who feel God is a God of all people equally. Certainly God took a large mixed group of people steeped in Egyptian ideas and trained them to be His people.

God seems to think like those who consider the OT scripture. I just checked on how much of the NT was OT quotes. There are 7,967 verses in the NT, 2,606 of them are quotes of the OT.
 
Blik said:
I wonder who is right, those who say much of the OT is for Jews only, and those who feel God is a God of all people equally.
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You are putting two different issues side by side (which is false).

God is the God for the whole human race. That DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT that the Law (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) was given by God to Moses for Israel, and it is called "the Law of Moses". Was the Law of Moses applicable to the whole Church? Not at all as revealed in Scripture. And the whole Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles.

ACTS 15: THE YOKE OF THE LAW OF MOSES NOT FOR THE CHURCH
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

So you are still trying to tempt the Lord by trying to put the yoke of the Law of Moses back on Christians. In fact after all of this has been recorded, you are ACTIVELY OPPOSING GOD.
 
Blik said:
I wonder who is right, those who say much of the OT is for Jews only, and those who feel God is a God of all people equally. Certainly God took a large mixed group of people steeped in Egyptian ideas and trained them to be His people.

God seems to think like those who consider the OT scripture. I just checked on how much of the NT was OT quotes. There are 7,967 verses in the NT, 2,606 of them are quotes of the OT.
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Blik, we all have a history that goes all the way back to Adam. We all share the same Genesis. The OT is our history too.
 
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Blik said:
I wonder who is right, those who say much of the OT is for Jews only, and those who feel God is a God of all people equally. Certainly God took a large mixed group of people steeped in Egyptian ideas and trained them to be His people.
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Scripture makes clear that the "mixed group of people steeped in Egyptian ideas" were the descendants of Jacob.

Blik said:
God seems to think like those who consider the OT scripture.
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Another empty accusation from you. Has anyone actually claimed that the OT is not Scripture? No.

Maybe it's time to start using the actual quoted claims that others make instead of paraphrasing, because when you paraphrase, you get things consistently wrong.
 
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gb9 said:
^ when you say "us", you mean Israel, the nation that the O.T. is about.

because, as i have pointed out to you before, in Leviticus 26, God spoke of the Covenant He made with " the fathers of those who came out of egypt"'

so, once again, unless you can trace your ancestry back to those who crossed the red sea, then that covenant ( which contained all Laws, statues, and festivals and sacred calendar by which they were kept) was NOT for you, and gentiles were and are never under it.
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In Exodus 12:38 we are told that the crowd that came out of Egypt included gentiles.

Exodus 12:38 A mixed multitude went up also with them.

The Hebrew word translated as mixed crowd means people other than Israelites. They crossed the Red Sea as gentiles.

Also, in Matthews it gives a genealogy of Christ that includes four gentiles: Tamar, Rehab, Ruth, and the wife of Uriah that we know as Bathsheba. They all started their life as gentiles.
 
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Blik said:
In Exodus 12:38 we are told that the crowd that came out of Egypt included gentiles.

Exodus 12:38 A mixed multitude went up also with them.

The Hebrew word translated as mixed crowd means people other than Israelites. They crossed the Red Sea as gentiles.

Also, in Matthews it gives a genealogy of Christ that includes four gentiles: Tamar, Rehab, Ruth, and the wife of Uriah that we know as Bathsheba. They all started their life as gentiles.
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that is true , but does not change anything. you would still have to trace your ancestry back to one of those who crossed the red sea to be under the Mosaic Covenant.
 
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"The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled "
Forgive me.. I still can't find this Church
 
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Nehemiah6 said:
You are putting two different issues side by side (which is false).

God is the God for the whole human race. That DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT that the Law (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) was given by God to Moses for Israel, and it is called "the Law of Moses". Was the Law of Moses applicable to the whole Church? Not at all as revealed in Scripture. And the whole Church consists of both Jews and Gentiles.

ACTS 15: THE YOKE OF THE LAW OF MOSES NOT FOR THE CHURCH
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

So you are still trying to tempt the Lord by trying to put the yoke of the Law of Moses back on Christians. In fact after all of this has been recorded, you are ACTIVELY OPPOSING GOD.
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I think you have come up with the core of the difference in misunderstanding scripture. God is truth and the truth is in scripture. All scripture, (that is the old and new testament) must agree, for it is truth and there is no disagreement in truth.

You speak of the law of Moses. God gave many laws to the Israelites through Moses to help with their training to live in harmony with God. He used the physical as an explanation of the spiritual laws. They were to circumcise, to eat a special diet to understand the spiritual that they were a separate, special people belonging to God. These were the laws of Moses. Through Christ and the new covenant of the Holy Spirit for all they were now obsolete, not needed any longer to lead to the spiritual truths.

But when man gets these laws of Moses mixed up with eternal law there is misunderstanding and trouble. We need to prayerfully read scripture and subject ourselves to the truth of Christ. We need to accept eternal truth.
 
gb9 said:
that is true , but does not change anything. you would still have to trace your ancestry back to one of those who crossed the red sea to be under the Mosaic Covenant.
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If that was so then God would be a God of the flesh and not of the spirit. God has always accepted a contrite humble spirit in man.
 
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Blade said:
"The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled "
Forgive me.. I still can't find this Church
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I learned a lot about scripture without doctrines that obscure it through studying OT through the background that a man named Tom Bradford has. He made enough money he could retire early and devoted his retirement to study in Jerusalem using people studying the deep sea scrolls and the scholars there. He spent eight years in study and then has explained the OT word for word using what he has learned. If there is anything in his explanation that is from his own thoughts and not from his studies, he tells us so. I have used his extensive knowledge of scripture and ancient history. It is free under torahclass.com.

I have found our Messianic Synagogue a wonderful place to worship, but you have to be careful that they accept the NT as scripture, they accept Christ, and know that God does not require us to copy the culture of the OT Jews.
 
Blik said:
If that was so then God would be a God of the flesh and not of the spirit. God has always accepted a contrite humble spirit in man.
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well, you will have to take that up with the Lord. i am simply taking Him at His word about who is under what Covenant.

gentiles are and never were under the Mosaic Covenant, and are not required to keep the Sabbath.
 
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gb9 said:
well, you will have to take that up with the Lord. i am simply taking Him at His word about who is under what Covenant.

gentiles are and never were under the Mosaic Covenant, and are not required to keep the Sabbath.
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It would be wonderful if everyone took only things of the Lord up with the Lord, but as you are proving, they don't. God gives the Jews a special blessing, God set them apart to be trained in His ways to show the ways of God to the nations, but your idea of God's relationship to man as otherwise making them different is not scriptural.
 
Blik said:
The church tells us OT scripture can be in error. OT scripture tells us that God guides us to praise and celebrate His plan of salvation for us with feasts for all generations. The church tells us that is an error, that the feasts are to be treated the same way cutting the foreskin is treated.
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Cutting a man's foreskin is male circumcision, but what about women?
 
Blik said:
Who told you Christ rose on Sunday? It isn't in scripture. It was DISCOVERED that he rose from the dead on Sunday. Do you think that the time Mary went to the tomb was so powerful that it could change creation? As Genesis describes creation the creation of the Sabbath was part of it.
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Actually, we have services on Sunday because Constantine changed the day to attract the pagans to the church.
 
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mustaphadrink said:
Actually, we have services on Sunday because Constantine changed the day to attract the pagans to the church.
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Your 100% correct, (Sunday) was a venerated day for pagans that worshipped the (Sun), yes Constatine was a pagan.

Wikipedia: Sol Invictus ("Unconquered Sun") was the official sun god of the later Roman Empire and a patron of soldiers. On 25 December AD 274, the Roman emperor Aurelian made it an official religion alongside the traditional Roman cults.[2] Scholars disagree about whether the new deity was a refoundation of the ancient Latin cult of Sol,[3] a revival of the cult of Elagabalus,[4] or completely new.[5] The god was favored by emperors after Aurelian and appeared on their coins until the last third-part of the reign of Constantine I.[6] The last inscription referring to Sol Invictus dates to AD 387,[7] and there were enough devotees in the fifth century that the Christian theologian Augustine found it necessary to preach against them.[8]

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the Sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest

On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.[34]

Constantine's triumphal arch was carefully positioned to align with the colossal statue of Sol by the Colosseum, so that Sol formed the dominant backdrop when seen from the direction of the main approach towards the arch.[35]
 
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Blik said:
Do you really think that God tells us one thing in Genesis (scripture) and a completely different thing in other scriptures? If that was so then scripture would not be truth at all.
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Mark 16:1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices, so that coming they might anoint Him. Mark 16:2 And very early on the first of the week, the sun having risen, they came upon the tomb.

Luke 24:1 And the first of the sabbaths, while still very early, they came on the tomb, carrying spices which they prepared; and some were with them.

John 20:1 But on the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene came early to the tomb, darkness yet being on it. And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb.

Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave.

Mark 16:9 And having risen early on the first of the sabbath, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

John 20:19 Then it being evening on that day, the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been locked where the disciples were assembled because of fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace to you.

These are all the verses you quoted to make your case, but in the original and literal interpretation, it does not mention Sunday. In every case, it says the first of the sabbaths.

Therefore can you explain why this is the case?
 
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