Chosen by God - A study in Election

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cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#741
EleventhHour said:
God clearly wanted Paul... yet even Paul stated...

“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
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I think you are dodging the point, that being an individual person HAVING BEEN ELECTED before obedience was ever displayed to begin with! Yes you might find that uncomfortable but that's what the Bible clearly states. That's what Roman 9:11 clearly states.

Gal 1:15
But when God, the One having selected me from my mother's womb and having called me by His grace, was pleased

I think you will find these scriptures very interesting indeed. I know I do....
Isa 10:6-10
I will send him (Assyria) against a godless nation; I will dispatch him against a people destined for My rage, to take spoils and seize plunder, and to trample them down like clay in the streets. But this is not what he intends; this is notwhat he plans. His purpose is to destroy and cut off many nations.

Assyria had no idea that they were the rod of Gods anger. Not a clue. They thought they were doing their own free will. So did Pharoah by the way.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#742
EleventhHour said:
Amen again...

Repeat... CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

And no where in scripture do we read regeneration preceding belief.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13

They never want to deal with all the scripture which refutes Calvinism.
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Whoa hold your horses. When the ELECT hear the gospel they believe. If Jesus does not know you and you are not of his sheep and the Father does not draw are you, you will NOT believe.

John 6:65
And He was saying, "Because of this, I have said to you that no one is able to come to Me, unless it shall have been granted to him from the Father."

John 10
But you do not believe, because you are not from among My sheep.

John 10:14 [Here are the sheep that Jesus "knows" (A predetermined relationship from eternity past)]
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and I am known by My own.

Matt 7:23 [Here are the sheep that Jesus does not "know"]
And then I will declare unto them, 'I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness.'

You accuse me of not dealing with all the Scriptures. There are some Scriptures...so deal with them.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#743
EleventhHour said:
Amen. I see nowhere in the text Abraham was forced to believe.

The same for every other person who was saved throughout history, is presently saved and will be saved in the future.... they believed
God.
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You VASTLY underestimate Gods freedom to do precisely as he pleases, without any objections being raised nor any council being sought.

Rom 9:17, 18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "For this very purpose I have raised you up, so that I might show My power in you, and that My name should be declared in all the earth."
So then, He shows mercy to whom He wants, and He hardens whom He wants.

Yes who HE wants not who WE wants. Don't be deceived.
 
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EleventhHour

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#744
Bbrdrd said:
Not only not dealing with the Scripture that refutes Calvinism, they refuse to engage in honest discussion of what most of their proof texts mean in context.

It's a pernicious system because it's easy to rip a handful of verses out of context and camp on them, and then add in a bunch of other texts that ambiguously could be read that way if the doctrine are accepted first to make it look super Biblical and then not engage with critics unless they can philosophize about "harmonizing" by which they mean twisting to suit the doctrine.

Actually taking the time to properly speak of the context and nuance of the Bible is far more difficult than adopting a soundbyte theology like Calvinism.
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Agree, we have been stating this for months... either the blinders are very thick or they knowingly peddle false dogma.
 
E

EleventhHour

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#745
iamsoandso said:
On the Cross,,in the first century AD,,the same place Paul,and Peter or me or anyone else was saved,even you. That's when and where we/you were saved. No one is saved because they said something or did something during their lives,they were trying to do or say something because they don't realize/believe that they were saved by Christ on the Cross (denying it without realizing they are).

So since they don't realize that he saved them(on the Cross) they say things like "I was saved when I was 18" and attribute it to an act that happened during their lifetime. Think through what I'm saying because I'm not asking you "have you been saved yet?" I'm instead trying to explain to you that you are and that you were saved on the Cross by Jesus blood and hoping it dawns on your mind .
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Yes I understand...
yet at a point in my life I accepted it as truth and believed it to be true.
 
iamsoandso

iamsoandso

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Oct 6, 2011
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#746
A man is a bag of flesh and bone and when he closes his eyes the spirit of the man inside. His spirit inside says to his hands to get the bread and the bag of flesh obeys. It does not throw the bread over his head but puts it in his mouth as his spirit said. One man says to his bag of flesh it should put it's clothes on for today is the day it will get saved. While another man says to his bag of flesh "leap with joy and give thanks for the Lord saved me on the Cross", and today praises God and give thanks. A man tells his bag of flesh to do the thing his spirits heart believes. One man holds his hands into a cup and ask for it to be filled and another man looks at his overflowing.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#747
Dec 12, 2013
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#747
EleventhHour said:
Amen again...

Repeat... CONSCIENCE decision to accept and believe it must come to pass for one to be saved!

And no where in scripture do we read regeneration preceding belief.

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
Ephesians 1:13

They never want to deal with all the scripture which refutes Calvinism.
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It is actually hilariously tragic...GOD WILLED me to be saved and POOF I WAS.....so false....if that ia the case then no one is lost....God would have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth....they are too false and obstinate against the truth to see their own error....it is sickening and straight from the pit!
 
T

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#748
cv5 said:
Everything? Let's limit ourselves to the new birth aka Salvation. God Himself alone is the One causing that to happen. That's what the Bible says.
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How is God not Causing regeneration to happen if He does it in response to Faith ?
 
J

John146

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#749
Iconoclast said:
We are to preach to all men.
Those who are elect are God's business .
We are not lying when we tell them God saves sinners who believe .
Sounds as if you men do not understand what the gospel is.
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The gospel is clear in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. I would be lying if I told a non-elect person that message.

You are sneaky in your wording.
 
J

John146

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cv5 said:
Let me clarify your position here. Are you saying that fulfilling the Great Commission and preaching the gospel is a lie? Are you saying that election is a lie? What exactly are you saying?

Because you have a problem. Election is boilerplate doctrine. Ironclad bombproof. It is literally everywhere in the Bible stated over and over and over again. And preaching the gospel and the Great Commission is what we do, there is no choice in the matter. Maybe you can't connect the two in your mind..........but that hardly matters.
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Election for salvation is a lie and is not found anywhere in the Bible. If you believe in election for salvation then preaching to a non elect person in your view is a lie.
 
Iconoclast

Iconoclast

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#751
John146 said:
The gospel is clear in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. I would be lying if I told a non-elect person that message.

You are sneaky in your wording.
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I a
John146 said:
The gospel is clear in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. I would be lying if I told a non-elect person that message.

You are sneaky in your wording.
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I and other Calvinists follow the biblical wording.
Do you believe 1 cor 15:1-4
notice it says according to the scriptures.
scriptures plural.
In 1 tim Paul tells us Christ Jesus came to save sinners .
Not all sinners, but a multitude.
We need to be biblical, not make up our own version.
 
cv5

cv5

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throughfaith said:
How is God not Causing regeneration to happen if He does it in response to Faith ?
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IMO that is THE critical error, thinking that as far as salvation is concerned it is God who is responding to our faith. That is not what the Bible says.
Allow me to demonstrate:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it [[[saving faith]]] is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Tim 1:13-14
though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Phil 1:29
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you gnot to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to ithe measure of faith that God has assigned.

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
 
cv5

cv5

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#753
Iconoclast said:
We are to preach to all men.
Those who are elect are God's business .
We are not lying when we tell them God saves sinners who believe .
Sounds as if you men do not understand what the gospel is.
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That's the way I see it....
 
cv5

cv5

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John146 said:
The gospel is clear in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, how Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day. I would be lying if I told a non-elect person that message.

You are sneaky in your wording.
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Fortunately for us (and them) nobody knows the elect are. A confidential matter to which we have no access, held in the council of God's will.
 
T

throughfaith

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cv5 said:
IMO that is THE critical error, thinking that as far as salvation is concerned it is God who is responding to our faith. That is not what the Bible says.
Allow me to demonstrate:

Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it [[[saving faith]]] is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Tim 1:13-14
though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Phil 1:29
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

Rom 12:3
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you gnot to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to ithe measure of faith that God has assigned.

Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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If you do any witnessing to any groups such as Jehovah's_Witnesses you will quickly realise in conversation how they use the bible. They will quote you a verse and offer their interpretation of it . You answer that verse and respond with another isolated verse . It suddenly dawns on you that they don't really care about the context but rather something else is driving the over all picture and the verses they are quoting are just proof texts to support their doctrines . This is the exact same thing Calvinism does . It has its system ( TULIP ) then all the verses ( proof texts ) are then spoken of in terms of the paradigm as if they fit the system. Context is rarely used ,which exposes what Calvinism is leaning on . Its not scriptural authority . its the system that dictates the bible . So for example. No one could possibly read
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
and come away thinking " oh yeah Faith is the gift .
The point is ,we are saved by grace and not by works . This is stated over and over all through the NT .
 
cv5

cv5

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throughfaith said:
Post hoc rationalization.
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Not the first statement maybe the second statement.

Nobody (no man) knows who are the elect are upon their first birth. It certainly is possible to know later on though. We aren't born with a tattoo that says "elect".
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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throughfaith said:
If you do any witnessing to any groups such as Jehovah's_Witnesses you will quickly realise in conversation how they use the bible. They will quote you a verse and offer their interpretation of it . You answer that verse and respond with another isolated verse . It suddenly dawns on you that they don't really care about the context but rather something else is driving the over all picture and the verses they are quoting are just proof texts to support their doctrines . This is the exact same thing Calvinism does . It has its system ( TULIP ) then all the verses ( proof texts ) are then spoken of in terms of the paradigm as if they fit the system. Context is rarely used ,which exposes what Calvinism is leaning on . Its not scriptural authority . its the system that dictates the bible . So for example. No one could possibly read
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
and come away thinking " oh yeah Faith is the gift .
The point is ,we are saved by grace and not by works . This is stated over and over all through the NT .
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I am just waiting for someone to post Scripture that says the contrary in a well-rounded comprehensive manner. And the sword you are using cuts both ways. Why is everyone throwing the term election in the trash can without a second thought? I mean it is everywhere it is doctrine!
 
cv5

cv5

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EleventhHour said:
Agree, we have been stating this for months... either the blinders are very thick or they knowingly peddle false dogma.
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Let me ask you this: What do YOU do with the term and concept of election? It is after all unquestionably biblical and extremely important.

I have to tell you that by examining the "anti-Calvinist" posts, all I see is a complete dismissal and avoidance of the entire concept and term "election" (as it relates to salvation!) altogether. Just like so much theological junk in the trunk.
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#760
cv5 said:
Let me ask you this: What do YOU do with the term and concept of election? It is after all unquestionably biblical and extremely important.

I have to tell you that by examining the "anti-Calvinist" posts, all I see is a complete dismissal and avoidance of the entire concept and term "election" (as it relates to salvation!) altogether. Just like so much theological junk in the trunk.
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Let’s take a look at the first mention principle. Here election is tied to service. Jesus Christ was God’s chosen servant.

Isaiah 42:
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Again in Romans 9 it is tied to service.

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The biblical purpose of election is service. God has elect angels for service.
 
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