The Natural Man

What the bible says .
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. KJV

what scripture is presumed to teach.

" But the unsaved man cannot
receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )

Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say .

We know that Paul is responding to a letter from the household of Chloe .
1 cor 1.11
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
we see these issue are to do with the Church behaviour amongst those behaving ' carnally ' ( fleshy behaviour) Paul flat out calls theses believers ' Carnal ' . 1 cor 3.3 .
Now we get a description of God's wisdom v man's wisdom leading up to chapter 2 .
In chapter 2 Paul is talking about wisdom still ,the deeper wisdom that He speaks amongst those who are the mature ( spiritual ) Chapter 2 verse 6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature ) : yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
So just like in Hebrews 5 where Paul wants to impart the deeper things ( the meat ) the new babes are unable to leave the milk .

12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul is explaining the same idea in Chapter 2 of 1cor . That the immature ' natural / carnal / fleshy new babe is unable to hear and unable to discern yet because they are behaving ' fleshy ' .

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now as believers we have recieved the Spirit of God to be ' able ' to recieve these things . But not if we do not follow the principal in Hebrews 5 and Romans 12 .2 " be transformed with a renewal of our minds . " .
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Back to the verse at hand :
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned ( Maturely discerned )
15But he that is spiritual ( mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Notice it does not say " and he who is saved " . It says he who is spiritual ( mature ) judgeth all things .
which makes sense as these fleshy belivers are clearly not judging all things .
There are no chapter divisions in the Greek manuscripts ,this is later added . So paul is still making the point in chapter 3 .
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Notice these immature believers are UNABLE to recieve these things of God because of their behavior.
Paul never breaks from this with a non sequitor about a lost man unable to believe the Gospel this is forced into the text because some system needed a proof text to support the T in Tulip so this was close enough for some . Even non Calvinists who may have never picked up a book from any reformed theologian unfortunately still absorbs calvinstic thinking because of the years it has permeated into so many denominations and traditions ,that now the term ' the natural man ' is used by so many as if it refers to a lost man .

What the bible says .
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. KJV

what scripture is presumed to teach.

" But the unsaved man cannot
receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )

Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say .

We know that Paul is responding to a letter from the household of Chloe .
1 cor 1.11
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
we see these issue are to do with the Church behaviour amongst those behaving ' carnally ' ( fleshy behaviour) Paul flat out calls theses believers ' Carnal ' . 1 cor 3.3 .
Now we get a description of God's wisdom v man's wisdom leading up to chapter 2 .
In chapter 2 Paul is talking about wisdom still ,the deeper wisdom that He speaks amongst those who are the mature ( spiritual ) Chapter 2 verse 6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature ) : yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
So just like in Hebrews 5 where Paul wants to impart the deeper things ( the meat ) the new babes are unable to leave the milk .

12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul is explaining the same idea in Chapter 2 of 1cor . That the immature ' natural / carnal / fleshy new babe is unable to hear and unable to discern yet because they are behaving ' fleshy ' .

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now as believers we have recieved the Spirit of God to be ' able ' to recieve these things . But not if we do not follow the principal in Hebrews 5 and Romans 12 .2 " be transformed with a renewal of our minds . " .
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Back to the verse at hand :
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned ( Maturely discerned )
15But he that is spiritual ( mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Notice it does not say " and he who is saved " . It says he who is spiritual ( mature ) judgeth all things .
which makes sense as these fleshy belivers are clearly not judging all things .
There are no chapter divisions in the Greek manuscripts ,this is later added . So paul is still making the point in chapter 3 .
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Notice these immature believers are UNABLE to recieve these things of God because of their behavior.
Paul never breaks from this with a non sequitor about a lost man unable to believe the Gospel this is forced into the text because some system needed a proof text to support the T in Tulip so this was close enough for some . Even non Calvinists who may have never picked up a book from any reformed theologian unfortunately still absorbs calvinstic thinking because of the years it has permeated into so many denominations and traditions ,that now the term ' the natural man ' is used by so many as if it refers to a lost man .

I am not sure of your point. That is probably my fault as I looked for a structured argument. So I would only like to point out that the word "natural", in scripture and in everyday language, means (i) have its origin in nature, or, (ii) having as its intrinsic content something of nature. Maybe the best example is 1st Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The theme is resurrection. What is sown in death is the body that "nature" gave and which is of a "nature" content. Nature provides bodies by the seed of man and woman and the womb. A "spiritual" body is again, one that (i) has its origin in the Holy Spirit, or (ii) that is spirit in nature, like God (Jn.4:24).

I do not think that the scriptures you gave address "saved" or "unsaved". But rather the Christian, already saved, turning to his resources that are natural and not those which are spiritual. A man undergoes a birth from the womb. The resulting man is tripartite, body, spirit and soul (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). For this man to be fully saved, he needs for processes;

1. His sins must be atoned for by a qualified Substitute. This is by faith in Christ and His death and resurrection
2. His spirit mus undergo a new and additional birth by the Holy Spirit. This is by faith in Christ (Jn.1:12-13)
3. His soul must undergo a transformation from self-seeking and self serving to a Christ-like disposition (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.5:18)
4. His body must die and be raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). This is automatic by decree of God

Every scripture you produced was address to Believers. They are letters correcting doctrine and behavior WITHIN Churches. Hebrews 3:1 tells who Hebrews is addressed to. The them in each case is which SOURCE the Believer turns to. In 1st Corinthians Chapters 1 to 3 the appearance of being divided is a fruit of the flesh being the source that the Corinthians Believers had turned to. If they had been led b the Holy Spirit, which dwelt in their human spirits (Rom.8:14), they would have "kept the unity of the Spirit" (Eph.4:1-3) even in the face of conflicting doctrine. Apollos was the least trained, Peter had had 3½ years with the Lord, and Paul, besides his training as a Pharisee under Gamaliel, was trained for 14 years by the Lord. If the Corinthians had turned to their human spirits, which was home to the Holy Spirit, He would have said; "Corinthians, be one and allow ten years under Paul's teaching. Then you might all have "the unity of THE Faith" (Eph.4:13) - that is, unity in what they believed.

The Christian is never in danger of losing his rebirth and the divine nature infused into him by it, for these were acquired by faith and cannot be undone because they are wrought by Christ's Works. But he is always in danger of returning to the "Old" and "Natural" man as his resource. When he does this the fruits are "natural" and "poisonous". God has decreed a battle INSIDE man. As long as a man is not born again, and does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling his human spirit, man always makes his decisions in favor of the flesh - the natural man. But once the Holy Spirit INDWELLS a man, a ferocious battle ensues. Galatians 5:17 tells of it: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." This battle never ends with the work of Christ being undone. It ends in fruit - fruit of the spirit, or fruit of the flesh. And if fruit of the spirit - reward at the Bema, the judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), and if fruit of the flesh - loss and chastisement (1st Cor.3:14-15).

What the bible says .
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. KJV

what scripture is presumed to teach.

" But the unsaved man cannot
receive Jesus nor the Gospel of God:for it is foolishness unto him : neither can he know it ,because it is spiritually discerned. NSV ( Non scriptural version. )

Here we see this verse used to teach the Calvinstic idea of ' regeneration precedes faith ' And the T in TULIP . But let's look at what the verses actually say .

We know that Paul is responding to a letter from the household of Chloe .
1 cor 1.11
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
we see these issue are to do with the Church behaviour amongst those behaving ' carnally ' ( fleshy behaviour) Paul flat out calls theses believers ' Carnal ' . 1 cor 3.3 .
Now we get a description of God's wisdom v man's wisdom leading up to chapter 2 .
In chapter 2 Paul is talking about wisdom still ,the deeper wisdom that He speaks amongst those who are the mature ( spiritual ) Chapter 2 verse 6
6¶Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect( Mature ) : yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
So just like in Hebrews 5 where Paul wants to impart the deeper things ( the meat ) the new babes are unable to leave the milk .

12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Paul is explaining the same idea in Chapter 2 of 1cor . That the immature ' natural / carnal / fleshy new babe is unable to hear and unable to discern yet because they are behaving ' fleshy ' .

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13¶Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now as believers we have recieved the Spirit of God to be ' able ' to recieve these things . But not if we do not follow the principal in Hebrews 5 and Romans 12 .2 " be transformed with a renewal of our minds . " .
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Back to the verse at hand :
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned ( Maturely discerned )
15But he that is spiritual ( mature judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Notice it does not say " and he who is saved " . It says he who is spiritual ( mature ) judgeth all things .
which makes sense as these fleshy belivers are clearly not judging all things .
There are no chapter divisions in the Greek manuscripts ,this is later added . So paul is still making the point in chapter 3 .
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Notice these immature believers are UNABLE to recieve these things of God because of their behavior.
Paul never breaks from this with a non sequitor about a lost man unable to believe the Gospel this is forced into the text because some system needed a proof text to support the T in Tulip so this was close enough for some . Even non Calvinists who may have never picked up a book from any reformed theologian unfortunately still absorbs calvinstic thinking because of the years it has permeated into so many denominations and traditions ,that now the term ' the natural man ' is used by so many as if it refers to a lost man .

If you can persuade him to understand the difference in what you are telling him, you are a better teacher than I. I have tried relentlessly to explain to him that "a babe in Christ" has been reborn of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:5 explains that we have been quickened together with Christ. We do not become "babes in Christ" until we are reborn of the Holy Spirit, and have to gradually grow into maturity the same way that we were at our natural birth. I quoted him Isaiah 28:9-10, which explains this growing process, which he did not take note of.

You have said the opposite of what The unsaved absolutely believe the Gospel is foolishness. Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 1:18
New King James Version
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

If you can persuade him to understand the difference in what you are telling him, you are a better teacher than I. I have tried relentlessly to explain to him that "a babe in Christ" has been reborn of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:5 explains that we have been quickened together with Christ. We do not become "babes in Christ" until we are reborn of the Holy Spirit, and have to gradually grow into maturity the same way that we were at our natural birth. I quoted him Isaiah 28:9-10, which explains this growing process, which he did not take note of.

I am not sure of your point. That is probably my fault as I looked for a structured argument. So I would only like to point out that the word "natural", in scripture and in everyday language, means (i) have its origin in nature, or, (ii) having as its intrinsic content something of nature. Maybe the best example is 1st Corinthians 15:44: "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." The theme is resurrection. What is sown in death is the body that "nature" gave and which is of a "nature" content. Nature provides bodies by the seed of man and woman and the womb. A "spiritual" body is again, one that (i) has its origin in the Holy Spirit, or (ii) that is spirit in nature, like God (Jn.4:24).

I do not think that the scriptures you gave address "saved" or "unsaved". But rather the Christian, already saved, turning to his resources that are natural and not those which are spiritual. A man undergoes a birth from the womb. The resulting man is tripartite, body, spirit and soul (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). For this man to be fully saved, he needs for processes;

1. His sins must be atoned for by a qualified Substitute. This is by faith in Christ and His death and resurrection
2. His spirit mus undergo a new and additional birth by the Holy Spirit. This is by faith in Christ (Jn.1:12-13)
3. His soul must undergo a transformation from self-seeking and self serving to a Christ-like disposition (Rom.8:29, 2nd Cor.5:18)
4. His body must die and be raised by the Holy Spirit (Rom.8:11). This is automatic by decree of God

Every scripture you produced was address to Believers. They are letters correcting doctrine and behavior WITHIN Churches. Hebrews 3:1 tells who Hebrews is addressed to. The them in each case is which SOURCE the Believer turns to. In 1st Corinthians Chapters 1 to 3 the appearance of being divided is a fruit of the flesh being the source that the Corinthians Believers had turned to. If they had been led b the Holy Spirit, which dwelt in their human spirits (Rom.8:14), they would have "kept the unity of the Spirit" (Eph.4:1-3) even in the face of conflicting doctrine. Apollos was the least trained, Peter had had 3½ years with the Lord, and Paul, besides his training as a Pharisee under Gamaliel, was trained for 14 years by the Lord. If the Corinthians had turned to their human spirits, which was home to the Holy Spirit, He would have said; "Corinthians, be one and allow ten years under Paul's teaching. Then you might all have "the unity of THE Faith" (Eph.4:13) - that is, unity in what they believed.

The Christian is never in danger of losing his rebirth and the divine nature infused into him by it, for these were acquired by faith and cannot be undone because they are wrought by Christ's Works. But he is always in danger of returning to the "Old" and "Natural" man as his resource. When he does this the fruits are "natural" and "poisonous". God has decreed a battle INSIDE man. As long as a man is not born again, and does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling his human spirit, man always makes his decisions in favor of the flesh - the natural man. But once the Holy Spirit INDWELLS a man, a ferocious battle ensues. Galatians 5:17 tells of it: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." This battle never ends with the work of Christ being undone. It ends in fruit - fruit of the spirit, or fruit of the flesh. And if fruit of the spirit - reward at the Bema, the judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10), and if fruit of the flesh - loss and chastisement (1st Cor.3:14-15).

If you can persuade him to understand the difference in what you are telling him, you are a better teacher than I. I have tried relentlessly to explain to him that "a babe in Christ" has been reborn of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Eph 2:5 explains that we have been quickened together with Christ. We do not become "babes in Christ" until we are reborn of the Holy Spirit, and have to gradually grow into maturity the same way that we were at our natural birth. I quoted him Isaiah 28:9-10, which explains this growing process, which he did not take note of.

Two things there. Something is deemed foolish and then the second thing would be to not be able to believe the Gospel. They are not the same .And this is assuming irresistible grace is true.

Well wait. Why wasn’t the Gospel message deemed foolishness to you?

These guys hear the Gospel, but deem it foolishness.

We don’t. Why? Do we have superior intellect? Morally better than them? Why?

You have said the opposite of what The unsaved absolutely believe the Gospel is foolishness. Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 1:18
New King James Version
Christ the Power and Wisdom of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

“If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Such is the fate of calvinists for minimizing the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Well obviously not in the way Calvinism teaches . Not every single being hears the Gospel and rejects it because its foolish, other wise no one would be saved . We all believe some people hear the Gospel and believe it .

It is foolish to those who reject the message.
He is not stating it impossible for the natural man to believe.

The natural man receives not.
The natural man cannot.

Well wait. Why wasn’t the Gospel message deemed foolishness to you?

These guys hear the Gospel, but deem it foolishness.

We don’t. Why? Do we have superior intellect? Morally better than them? Why?

I know that. But you didn’t answer why.

And as I have said whenever I peek my head into one of these God’s sovereignty vs man’s free will threads, I’ve never read a single word of John Calvin or any other reformer for that matter. Only the Scriptures and my personal witness.