Chosen by God - A study in Election
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You should think more maybe
the two passages of scripture you posted were about Paul and jeremiah not any one else
which is why he asked you if you were paul or jeremiah
i agree the last part of his response was non essential and could be seen as an insult,, but before you judge, look inside
the two passages of scripture you posted were about Paul and jeremiah not any one else
which is why he asked you if you were paul or jeremiah
i agree the last part of his response was non essential and could be seen as an insult,, but before you judge, look inside
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My point? God "set apart" Paul and Jeremiah before they were born. In precisely the same way as he did with 7000 Israelites during the days of Elijah. In precisely the same way in Romans ch 9 choosing Jacob over Esau.
In precisely the same way as every Christian today is redeemed..........from eternity past, by God's own choosing!
2Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning [from before creation] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2Tim 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
In precisely the same way as every Christian today is redeemed..........from eternity past, by God's own choosing!
2Thess 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning [from before creation] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2Tim 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
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its still not there though is it 'chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world ' ? Paul was clearly chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Jeremiah to be a prophet.
Jacob and Easu in the womb .
7000 who had not done something
2 thes 2.13 read the context. ' beginning of what ? Why have you added ' before creation ' when it doesn't say it ?
2 timothy . Same again . What was granted ?
your ' proof texting '
For example could you explain using 2 thes why you arrived at your conclusion?
Jacob and Easu in the womb .
7000 who had not done something
2 thes 2.13 read the context. ' beginning of what ? Why have you added ' before creation ' when it doesn't say it ?
2 timothy . Same again . What was granted ?
your ' proof texting '
For example could you explain using 2 thes why you arrived at your conclusion?
The best interpretation for 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is from before creation. You will have to confirm that yourself using the Greek. In any case it follow suit with many many other similar Scriptures whose thrust is always the same: Chosen by God from eternity past before the foundation of the world.
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But according to the context of 2nd thes .. a false letter had been written that was saying the Lord had returned and they had missed it and were going through the Tribulation. Paul says no. From the beginning
Not with the context and narrative of the letter itself.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (how) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,(by preaching) to the obtaining of the glory (predestination) of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The beginning for the gentiles is in Acts 10 historically when God poured out the Spirit, which Peter explains to the contentious apostles in Jerusalem was the baptism of the gentiles with the Spirit in Acts 11.
Paul is telling them this to reassure them they have not missed the Lords return and are not going to suffer the Tribulation.
Not with the context and narrative of the letter itself.
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation (how) through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,(by preaching) to the obtaining of the glory (predestination) of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The beginning for the gentiles is in Acts 10 historically when God poured out the Spirit, which Peter explains to the contentious apostles in Jerusalem was the baptism of the gentiles with the Spirit in Acts 11.
Paul is telling them this to reassure them they have not missed the Lords return and are not going to suffer the Tribulation.
"lenna,
[well actually no although the video should be watched but I know that no Calvinist will watch it with the intent of actually considering what is being said]
Hate to burst your bubble, but many of us interacted with your hero Leighton Flowers for a 4 yr. period on another forum.
We have heard all of his foolish responses many times over, before he started his fruitless podcast....response-able indeed,lol
He tries to be a big man, when he plays a video where the other person cannot answer him
[why don't you bench yourself since you have nothing to offer other than the usual rhetoric and I can assure you, I have heard it all in this forum.]
When I see the moronic responses of people like you who will be critical of a pastor ,like John M., I find it hard to walk past.
[I could not be more earnest when I state I find the typical unreasoning and sarcastic responses from so many Calvinists]
your little posse of know next to nothing posters calling reformed truth heresy, and all the puritans, and particular baptists, as teaching a false gospel are horrendous.
[to be repugnant and without merit since the typical response consists of nothing more than at attempt at discrediting and belittling others that you apparently look down upon since they are not in the Bible according to Calvin/MacArthur
no response is necessary since there is no need to point out your obvious errors]
Give me your email address and I will copy and paste all of the vile attacks on believing brethren offered by your unbelieving posse.
[well actually no although the video should be watched but I know that no Calvinist will watch it with the intent of actually considering what is being said]
Hate to burst your bubble, but many of us interacted with your hero Leighton Flowers for a 4 yr. period on another forum.
We have heard all of his foolish responses many times over, before he started his fruitless podcast....response-able indeed,lol
He tries to be a big man, when he plays a video where the other person cannot answer him
[why don't you bench yourself since you have nothing to offer other than the usual rhetoric and I can assure you, I have heard it all in this forum.]
When I see the moronic responses of people like you who will be critical of a pastor ,like John M., I find it hard to walk past.
[I could not be more earnest when I state I find the typical unreasoning and sarcastic responses from so many Calvinists]
your little posse of know next to nothing posters calling reformed truth heresy, and all the puritans, and particular baptists, as teaching a false gospel are horrendous.
[to be repugnant and without merit since the typical response consists of nothing more than at attempt at discrediting and belittling others that you apparently look down upon since they are not in the Bible according to Calvin/MacArthur
no response is necessary since there is no need to point out your obvious errors]
Give me your email address and I will copy and paste all of the vile attacks on believing brethren offered by your unbelieving posse.
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eternally-gratefull,
[Roman 9-11 are seperate from Romans 8. They concernign Gods election of Israel Not the salvation of individual people]
Wrong again. Paul uses a familiar narrative to show that election was not totally national, but individual.
Israel as a nation was elected to receive the propmises contained in the scriptures ,different from all the nations.
rom3:
Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid:
However in romans 8:29-9:14 paul shows that it was not the nation in total, but those elect individuals who are the TRUE ISRAEL.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
He then goes on to show that even twins in the womb were divided by God.
In the OT. Jacob and Esau spoke of two nations, here in the NT. it speaks of the individuals.....The physical seed [sperma] the spiritual seed [teknon].....look it up, have fun.
[Roman 9-11 are seperate from Romans 8. They concernign Gods election of Israel Not the salvation of individual people]
Wrong again. Paul uses a familiar narrative to show that election was not totally national, but individual.
Israel as a nation was elected to receive the propmises contained in the scriptures ,different from all the nations.
rom3:
Romans 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid:
However in romans 8:29-9:14 paul shows that it was not the nation in total, but those elect individuals who are the TRUE ISRAEL.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
He then goes on to show that even twins in the womb were divided by God.
In the OT. Jacob and Esau spoke of two nations, here in the NT. it speaks of the individuals.....The physical seed [sperma] the spiritual seed [teknon].....look it up, have fun.
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eternally-gratefull,
[who Cares what certain people think? Are you a people follower or God follower?]
My friend,
I get that you feel the need to oppoe the doctrines of grace,but if you intend to do so, try reading a bible before you get to your keyboard.
Paul says that those who follow God, follow :
him as an example: Phil3:
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
faithful men;
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Proverbs 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
[who Cares what certain people think? Are you a people follower or God follower?]
My friend,
I get that you feel the need to oppoe the doctrines of grace,but if you intend to do so, try reading a bible before you get to your keyboard.
Paul says that those who follow God, follow :
him as an example: Phil3:
17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
faithful men;
17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Proverbs 13:20
He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.
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Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc10.html
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc10.html
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HelloD,
I do not mean it as an insult. I think that God witholds truth from believers sometime, until they humble themselves and prepare their heart to welcome it. Otherwise it will bounce right off;
here a recording,{poor quality} from 1964 that I listen to once or twice a year;
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=311131546212
If time permits, give it a listen...
I do not mean it as an insult. I think that God witholds truth from believers sometime, until they humble themselves and prepare their heart to welcome it. Otherwise it will bounce right off;
here a recording,{poor quality} from 1964 that I listen to once or twice a year;
https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=311131546212
If time permits, give it a listen...
Yes indeed;
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html
Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )
3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )
vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html
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