Irresistible Grace ?

And observe all things that He commanded...do you heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils...take sacrifices to the priest as he commanded...sell everything you have to follow him...I can go on and on...

Well, the church wasn’t even an entity until after the resurrection, but of course there are things learned under the Old Testament. Jesus lived under the old testament. The majority of church doctrine is found in Paul’s epistles. He specifically addresses the body of Christ.

For example, The meek shall inherit the earth. That’s not church doctrine.

I would go directly to the third chapter of the Gospel of John, which gives us the words of Christ Himself.

JOHN 3: THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL

THE PHARISEES DID NOT KNOW THE GOSPEL
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

THE ABSOLUTE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH TAUGHT BY CHRIST
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

CHRIST WAS THE DIVINE TEACHER OF ISRAEL AND THE WORLD
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in Heaven.

THE GOSPEL IN A NUTSHELL
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ALL WILL NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Why isnt that Church doctrine? NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH will be for all of God's people, not just the jews.... We are Abraham's seed, inherting the promise THROUGH FAITH as your favorite, PAUL says in Galatians 3!

If you can prove to me from the Bible where it says only Pauline epistles are to the Church, im coming a card carrying member of your crew. But I just havent seen a verse. Or if you can show a verse where 1 John isnt for the Church somehow. I mean, if we take the approach of: This is written to a Jew somewhere, so its not to us, to gentile church. Then NO BOOK of the Bible is written to me, not even Paul's epistles. Because im not a corinthian, nor a galatian. so NONE of it applies.

I haven't had leprosy yet, so I haven't gone to the priest - LOL!

I haven't raised anyone from the dead yet - unless raising someone spiritually dead counts - then I have done that one too.

The rest of those I have either done myself or seen them modeled and lived out by close friends around me. So, yes, I believe the commands Jesus gives are for all of today.

The meek shall inherit the earth - That's part of my church doctrine - just talked about it in several sermons within the past weeks.

"Deuteronomy, posted
@throughfaith[/USER], we've got our granddaughter with us tonight, so I'll need to come back and discuss this with you later, but for now, consider that it was the Lord Jesus Himself who uttered the words in John 6:44.

Also, whichever side of the fence you are on, Arminian or Calvinist, both teach (along with the Bible) that the Father must draw all of us who He intends to save and give us to His Son (Arminians call the Father's drawing, "Prevenient Grace", and Calvinists call it, "Irresistible Grace").

As for the Epistles making mention of it, again, it is hardly necessary since the Lord already did so. Nevertheless, it is mentioned elsewhere than just in John 6. For instance,


Gotta go, but I hope to be able to return later.

God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - here's one of the Biblical reasons why the Father's drawing, be it by prevenient or by irresistible grace, is necessary (take note of v11).

Ive had this convo with many dispies already. Yuo guys always pull up these examples.

Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.

How about the teachings of Jesus about love your neighbor as yourself? Repeated in Leviticus, gospels AND Paul.
How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.

Now why would we throw away these teachings????????? Or the 1 John teachings or whatever teachings. NO WHERE in the Bible does it say the church should only listen to Paul. Thats RIDICILOUS, and no one in the early church believeed that. These people would be CRYING TEARS OF JOY if they got the sermon on the mount on their hands. Not many people had Scripture back then. No time to pick and choose some weird "rightly divided" package.

What has happened is the System rests on ' Total inability ' . Once this is established, everything else has to cascade from this downward , logically . The system now dictates . " We are all dead literally because of the Fall ( step 1 ) " How are we saved ? " well ' regeneration has to precede faith , we need ' awakening first . " but not all believe " erm " limited atonement , Jesus only died to save those arbitrary elected to be saved for no reasons given before we were born.
" oh i see , but what if they don't want..." irresistible Grace " i see , and what if they don't make it to the end ? " Perseverance of the Saints " .
And round and round we go ..The system was born . Thanks to Augustine s Gnosticism.

No mention of the death, burial and resurrection for sins...the gospel message. You would have to use your knowledge of Paul's epistles to further explain.

Doctrine can be found in other books, but it must be read with the understanding of Paul's epistles. If it contradicts Paul's epistles then that doctrine is not for the church, the body of Christ.

One key to understanding is always look at the audience. Who is the audience? What doctrine is being taught to that audience?

//// Its not hard to figure out whats applicable today and what isnt. The temple was destroyed, there is no more priesthood, thats inapplicable since ad70.//// You make the connection here using the right method .
//// How about the teaching of: love your enemies, honor your elders, deny yourself, love God, love your neighbor, render to ceaser whats to ceaser, do not swear an oath, dont pray like the hypocrites out in the open, care for those in distress ETC ETC.//// ? Why does your hermeneutical approach change ? Should you not also use the same method through out ?

I know a lot of meek people who are lost. They will not inherit anything.

You know people who can heal the sick? Send them to the nearest cancer center please.

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

I believe that because of the T in TULIP of course we need some verses to suggest ' corpse like deadness ' ( Lazuraus) The whole system ( because of Augustine) hangs on the T , everything has to logically follow.
Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.

How did my hermeneutical approach change? Why wouldnt any of that be applicable???

The context proves the verse is not a good proof text of Calvinism. Consider the audience, this includes
1.The Murmuring Jews who followed Christ. (v.41)
2. The disciples that turned back whom Christ from the very beginning who they were not to beleived, instead they were those only who seek to know the miracle of Jesus. (v.60)
3. Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve who have to betray Jesus.(v.71)

So these are they who were drawn to Christ. It says also that those who believes on Christ not miracles has everlasting life (v. 47). IOW, the drawing includes all but only those who believes Christ are given eternal life.

I have three children under 5 so I have my hands full at times lol . God bless .

tbh I do not know for sure about if one has to always be drawn to him to be saved or not, that is how it was for me I didn't even bother seeking him until I felt the pull inside I honestly was not interested in God.
For others it seems they can be raised in a church home but do all the right things yet never feel that pull something I think does have to make us want to seek him whether that is curiosity the tugging or sometimes near death experiences but this is not limited to anything it seems I have heard of a guy who loved to watch the sunset and it was the light and beauty of the sunset that he was saved.

BBut the thing is the way the word draw is used in this particular context is always around Jesus speaking of raising on the last day him being lifted from earth and dawring the word drawing doesn't always mean an inner tug it seems to me and this may be an unpopular opinion that these verses seem to be speaking more of the event that shall not be named on this forum a lot of words are used implying raising being lifted up or in this case drawn up