It is not a sin to lie to do what is right - but is a sin when done to do what is wrong

Your passage in Proverbs, I believe - refers to evil lies - not to righteous lies, that may be necessary - for example to save the life of people from evil pursuers. God is always against all forms of sin, and we should too. If we aren't - then our relationships aren't right towards God. However, not all sincere Christians understand this subject the same. Some interpret the scriptures as I do on the subject, and others, interpret them differently, as you do.

As you say, it's only when people have allowed God to be Master of their lives - that they have proper fear for disobeying God in anything, as the Bible says, all actions will be judged by God.

Yes, the New Testament sometimes uses "sleep" to mean "death." But Jesus' friends didn't understand that He meant death, at first. So they were at first mislead by His speaking of Lazarus as being only "asleep." Jesus knew that, as God knows all things - He knows all people's thoughts. Yet He chose to veil the truth about what had happened to Lazarus, at first. And only explained about it clearly, after one's asked Him about it.


John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

But what they "understood" is not discussed here. We discuss whether our Lords Jesus told an untruth. As God of Abraham, is He a liar if He says that He is God of the LIVING? Our Lord answered from the point of view of HIS CAPABILITY with Lazarus' condition. If you, and I, and Hiis disciples "misunderstood", that misundrstanding goes to the account of a lack of knowledge, by the listeners, of Who spoke the words.

No doubt Rahab lied. But consider two things

1. Her fame with God is not for the lie. Her fame is stated by God as "she hid the messengers", not, "she lied in our favor"
2. Rahab did not lie to save the spies. She lied to save her own life. That the spies benefited is not disputed, but do you think that Rahab's lie is anything compared to the resources of God. Had they been caught and thrown into a fire, well .... ask Shadrach.

How could the the man crucified with Christ be with him that day if Christ did not ascend to heaven for some time? Not trying to bash just learn and understand. Be grateful if you could expand on where the man went, if you can.

In Esther's case, it was God's will for her to tell the truth that she was a Jew. We are to be always in close communication with God, as to what to do and not to do in life. In addition to of course, abiding by God's Word and what it says, to the best of our understanding.

I can think of a reason why it's plain that Esther needed to admit that she was a Jew, in this case. It was because she needed to add additional incentive to the king's being willing to save the Jews - since He might not be willing to have his own wife, Esther - killed.

I know of numerous times in the Bible of cases in which God's people lied for good causes, and the Bible expresses no objection to it in any of the cases I can find in the Bible in which they did that. In addition, I see some evidences that Jesus at times - made statements that we would call "lies" - based on the fact that their hearers didn't understand what He meant, and based on the fact that His statements sounded like they meant something different (according to common popular understanding of what such statements ordinarily would mean) than what He really meant.) For example, when He told officials that if they destroyed the temple - He could build it up again in 3 days.

John 2:19-21

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
KJV

Also, think of how Jesus told His disciples to "avoid the leaven of the Pharisees." His disciples thought He meant "bread" - but He meant, the evilness of their hearts.

Matt 16:6-7

6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
KJV

Also think of how Lazarus' family and others plainly thought Jesus meant that Lazarus was only sleeping, when He said Lazarus was sleeping.

John 11:11-14

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
KJV

And think of how the hired mourners plainly thought Jesus meant that He thought the dead girl was just sleeping, and laughed because of His having said so:

Matt 9:24

24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
KJV

Rahab's purpose in hiding the men, was not only that of saving her life and the life of her family. If it had been, the Bible would not have portrayed her as "righteous" in her act of having saved the 2 spies' lives.

Heb 11:31

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace
KJV

James 2:25-26

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
KJV
As for the situation in which Shadrach, Meschech, and Abednego, were thrown into Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, because of their refusal to worship his image, it would not have been at all appropriate for them to lie about what God they served. It is absolutely never - in any imaginable case - to lie about that. The Bible makes it plain that we are never to deny Christ, as Peter erred in his doing when asked if he knew Jesus - at Jesus' trial.

When ones misinterpreted Jesus statement about Lazarus "sleeping" - it isn't proper to blame them for not being able to understand what He meant. They sincerely and innocently believed, that He just meant what it sounded like - that Lazarus was just sleeping.

Rahab's purpose in hiding the men, was not only that of saving her life and the life of her family. If it had been, the Bible would not have portrayed her as "righteous" in her act of having saved the 2 spies' lives.

Heb 11:31

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace
KJV

James 2:25-26

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
KJV
As for the situation in which Shadrach, Meschech, and Abednego, were thrown into Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, because of their refusal to worship his image, it would not have been at all appropriate for them to lie about what God they served. It is absolutely never - in any imaginable case - to lie about that. The Bible makes it plain that we are never to deny Christ, as Peter erred in his doing when asked if he knew Jesus - at Jesus' trial.


Heb 11:31



31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace

KJV



James 2:25-26



25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?



26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

KJV

As for the situation in which Shadrach, Meschech, and Abednego, were thrown into Nebuchadnezzar's fiery furnace, because of their refusal to worship his image, it would not have been at all appropriate for them to lie about what God they served. It is absolutely never - in any imaginable case - to lie about that. The Bible makes it plain that we are never to deny Christ, as Peter erred in his doing when asked if he knew Jesus - at Jesus' trial.[/QUOTE]



When ones misinterpreted Jesus statement about Lazarus "sleeping" - it isn't proper to blame them for not being able to understand what He meant. They sincerely and innocently believed, that He just meant what it sounded like - that Lazarus was just sleeping.



And think of jargon and slang - which not all people understand well. Is it appropriate to use jargon or slang to cover up evil intentions? No. But it is ok to use them in some situations - in which truth must be hidden from those who are not deserving to understand what we are talking about. And from those who might harm people that we are trying to protect. We can think of evil people there are or have been. Would it be proper to use jargon or slang to them to hide from the truth about righteous deeds we plan to do? Yes, if their understanding these things would have an adverse effect. But we are never to use jargon or slang to cover up any sins we plan to do (if we ever were so unrighteous as to do so). It isn't appropriate to have a hilarious, giddy time, using all kinds of slang and jargon in saying things to plainly ungodly people we know or could know. Not if doing so is harmful or sinful.

I think that anything purposely said in a way to prevent some from correctly understanding what you mean, is in affect "a lie." Think of ways one might use parables to hide one's intentions from others, for example. One could devise elaborate parables to disguise what one planned to do. Even when telling about righteous deeds one planned to do (which could contain a moral lesson to it too) truths of the gospel, when explaining the gospel to others, either. Only Jesus has ever had the right to do that - as regards to the matter of telling the gospel.

Jesus used parable to teach truths of the gospel to people, which was a good cause. But parables could also be used to teach crimes to would-be criminals - with the lessons having to do with instructing as to how to do crimes. No Christian is to use parables for teaching spiritual truths from the Bible to others, without also explaining what they mean. It would be a sin to do so. Except for Jesus. Since He knew when it was appropriate to do so and when it was not. And we as humans aren't wise enough to be able to know that. Jesus was able to know that, because God knows what is inside people, and we humans do not have that ability. He was able to tell which people were open to the gospel, and which ones were not. That is how God is. He is all-wise and knows all things. Unlike humans, whose knowledge is only partial, and whose knowledge is not infallible.

Even a outright lie was considered righteousness such as when Rahab lied. It’s the secret motive of the heart God sees.

You don't have to give people information they don't have the right to know. Not telling the truth doesn'necessarily mean telling a lie.

I appreciate your logic. And I would go so far as to say that the Lord knew that the hearers would be misled. But a crowd of people not UNDERSTANDING is not grounds to say the statement was a lie.

Many years ago I was on a 4 day hunt in South Africa. Our tradition was that on the last evening we would invite our trackers to the campfire and ply them with gifts and a shot or two of good brandy. My tracker for the 4 days had been a wizened old black man who had never left the bush-veld farm to be educated. But he could spot a drop of blood from a wounded buck from 20 or more yards, and immediately tell you how bad the buck was wounded. He was a master of his profession. As we sat huddled around the fire, the savannah sky was clear and the Milky Way shone in all its glory. Camouflaged among the billion stars was an airliner, lights winking as it plied its way toward Europe at 35,000 ft. I said to my Tracker that that machine was over 10 kilometers away, weighed about 400 tons, was flying at about 3 football fields per second with 400 people on board in minus 60°C (-76°F) temperature, and would continue to do so for ten hours.

He watched the plane till it disappeared into the night sky, and then, with the deepest respect for me, said that this could not be so.

When a hearer does not understand, the statement of the speaker is far from being a lie.

As I said, I understand your logic but you have made our limited understanding the standard for truth - a fatal premise.

Thank you for this valuable exchange. If I have correctly read the postings you wrote following the one which I answered just before this one, I think that we are almost in agreement. Our Lord Jesus, divine and with divine foreknowledge of what He was saying about things that were yet to transpire, did not lie. But His statements could be misunderstood by men of darkened vision and fallen intellect, and our Lord knew that this would happen. We all have to decide how to judge this phenomena. But it is with great peril that we judge the Judge. Shall we not exercise our faith and say, as you have written above, God is infallible. It is men that try to drag God down to their level that get things hidden from them.

Go well, and thanks again for the exchange. You had some very good arguments.

no to lie is wrong a sin period. You've taken things out of context. When they lied it was wrong a sin. And posting about Lazarus... Christ never lied. No one dies we as humans call it death/dead. This flesh came from the dust.. it goes back to the dust.. not you. Who you serve.. is where you go.

Anyway.. its not GOD telling you its not a sin to lie when its right... huh? How can one miss this. Its in what you said. Its not a sin to lie <--full stop! Thats the red flag. To follow this is opening a door to the enemy.

John 8:31-32

I see what you mean. However, i do believe that if we truly seek to obey God's law when he says do not lie, he will make a better way for us to do what we need that, at the same time, is in alignment with his laws and decrees. I think that lying always has a consequence. Whether we see it right away or not, it either hurts others, or encourages us to vary the authority of the word based on our circumstance or situation. I just thought as I am typing this about all the scripture that you quoted. I notice that especially in the cases were you say lying is okay in some situations, the bible does not say they are wrong. But it does not say they were right for doing it either. We do not know how God dealt with them because of their lying. I think that God is so faithful that he will provide a way so that when we hold his Word in high reverence in our lives, he will pave another way. A better way.

Luke 20:38-40

Sure. Had I lived in Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, or any other country where a psychotic murderous dictator ruled and was killing people wholesale, I'd have lied to save lives.

Lying to the face of evil isn't a sin. The evil is the sin. Lying to overcome evil is righteous in my opinion. This is because of the precepts an evil dictator would install in order for those they control to be in compliance with that dictator's vision of conformity. And those precepts would themselves be tainted and evil. Therefore lying to overcome evil is actually the truth of righteous rebellion overcoming soulless dictates.
There's also no mistake in taking notice that most all, if not all, evil dictators seized the weapons of those they would dominate prior to executing their savage authoritarian dictatorial controls.

What do an unarmed people do in the shadow of savage dictatorial government?
Anything they're told

We should learn from history else be damned to repeat it. NEVER let anyone disarm you.

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.