What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

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G

garee

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#41
Mar 28, 2016
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#41
Mattathias said:
There is a human person [a Jew, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth] sitting at the right hand of God [Yahweh, the living God, the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one and only true God, the God of the human Jewish person seated at his right hand] in heaven.
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God is not a man . Neither Jewish nor gentile, male or female . God is light. God is Spirit. God is Love. (The trinity.)

When the Son of man Jesus, the apostle as a prophet left he left clear instructions from the father never again forever and ever more.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more

If he did not leave the Holy Spirit could not come in full capacity. This shows us no man can serve two teaching masters (an abomination of desolation.

Blasphemy against the Son of man was forgivable up until the Son of man, Jesus left. The window of forgiveness closed when he disappeared out of sight. Never to reopen ever again. We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after the temporal flesh and blood what the eyes see.
 
soberxp

soberxp

Senior Member
#42
May 3, 2018
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#42
Jesus, the son of God,
Give birth to life
represents the meaning of life to be conceived by God and the truth of God, but God's omnipotence is somewhat incomprehensible to human beings,

check out to understanding with pics
 
G

garee

Banned
#43
Mar 28, 2016
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#43
Mattathias said:
I don’t think trinitarians can leave “Trinitarianism” aside. The language of trinitarianism permeates their vocabulary. This can be seen in your communication to me. Let’s look at one example: the phrase, “God the Son”.

In Greek, the phrase “God the Son” is “theos ho huios”.

How many times does this phrase occur in scripture? 0.

If we could truly set aside trinitarianism and focus on the Bible, our language would sound different. Rather than speaking about “God the Son” (a theological term of later trinitarianism) we would speak about “the Son of God”.

How many times is Jesus called “the Son of God” in the NT? 37.
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We must be careful how we hear or say we hear in order to seek the approval of God our father.

Many times I think we start to reason by looking at the work of one rather than two working together in prefect harmony and mutual submissiveness. No Son. No Father vice versa.

I would offer. "of" begotten of man, or daughters "of" men speaks on fallen mankind. . The word "of" determines determines the power or lack of it. When using sons "of" God it speaks of believer born "of" God, And not born "of" men as daughters "of" men . Daughters represent the reproducing order. Eve is the mother of reproducing both male and female.

Sons of God, new creatures do not cannot reproduce . Things of kinds reproducer after. Flesh produces flesh .The Spirit of God produces spirits life giving power .

Jesus as the Son of man "Capitalized" is used to represent the "first born" among brethren. Jesus as the Son of man as a apostle, prophet Jesus continually without sin did the will of the unseen father that worked in the Son of man ... not the will "of" his corrupted flesh .

Because or as a result of the ressurection. . . the work of the father and son working together we have that peace that works in our bodies of death making the load lighter, giving us rest.

But the Son of man which defines a apostle, prophet in regard to Jesus had no power to form new spirit life or rebuke the father of lies. . That work is again accredited to the power to the father .

The Son "of" God Christ our Lord , and the Son of man, Jesus finished the one time demonstration of the two, witnessed by the Holy Spirit who worked in the Son of man.

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

No such thing as holiness of the corrupted flesh .

Faith is a mutual work .The unseen father working in the Son of man seen must be mixed .Then we can rest being assured we have heard the gospel and do believe in God not seen.

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Again be careful how we hear. Like in the garden. . .Thou shall surely die . The evil one is right there waiting to snatch the seed of faith
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

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#44
Jun 6, 2020
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#44
bluto said:
I ask you the following question? "So tell me, is this statement true or Biblical? Jesus Christ, is God who became a human being when He incarnated/became flesh according to John 1:14?" You said, "No."

Can you please give me a Biblical reason/or reasons why your answer is "No?"
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“1. In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2. The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3. All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4. In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5. and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darccknes comprehended it not.

14. And the worde was made flesshe and dwelt amonge vs and we sawe the glory of it as the glory of the only begotten sonne of ye father which worde was full of grace and verite.”

(Tyndale Bible, 1534)

https://tyndalebible.com/john-chapter-1/
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#45
Jul 31, 2013
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#45
Mattathias said:
Yes, but first I’d like to finish our discussion on why you say “Jesus was God who became a human person“ when trinitarianism teaches us that “Jesus is not a human person“.
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it's also amusing when an atheist tells me they know more about what i believe than i do.
 
G

garee

Banned
#46
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#46
Mattathias said:
“1. In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
2. The same was in the beginnynge with God.
3. All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
4. In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men
5. and the lyght shyneth in the darcknes but the darccknes comprehended it not.

14. And the worde was made flesshe and dwelt amonge vs and we sawe the glory of it as the glory of the only begotten sonne of ye father which worde was full of grace and verite.”

(Tyndale Bible, 1534)

https://tyndalebible.com/john-chapter-1/
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The word of God spoken by the father worked in the Son of man the prophet apostle worked to both will and do the good pleasure of God .Jesus performed it without murmuring

The Son of man Jesus did not do the will of his own corrupted flesh. He did the will of the father the work of two . The Spirit of the word was God. The Son of man prophesied or declared it as it is written like all apostles
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

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#47
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#47
posthuman said:
it's also amusing when an atheist tells me they know more about what i believe than i do.
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All the atheist (or theist - I’m not sure why you’re focusing on atheists) can legitimately do is compare what we believe with whatever religious tradition we self-identify with teaches.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#48
Aug 4, 2016
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#48
Mattathias said:
Jesus was God who became a human person = Jesus is not a human person.

Is that where you want to leave it, bluto?
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I highly suggest Mattathias that your read "carefully" what Craig said here: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

Your misunderstanding the point of what he says. The one person of Jesus Christ "assumed" a human nature and we are not worshiping His nature but rather who He is. Thomas declared (literally) to the one person of Jesus Christ, "The Lord of me and the God of me." If you notice, Thomas was looking at a 100% contingent human being when he said what he said at John 20:28.

So, I guess I will have to bring out the "big guns" and school you on this subject. Does the term "person" appear in the Bible?" Yes! The Greek word for person is "prospon." Strongs #5287. Examples follow.

Matthew 22:16, "....thou regardest not the person of men." Matthew 27:24, "...I am innocent of the blood of this just person" Another one, 2 Corinthinas 2:10, "But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for ou sakes IN THE PERSON/PRESENCE OF CHRIST."

Now pay attention--The word "person" also appears here: Hebrews 1:3, "who being the birghtness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON." this last one is critical because in the original Greek the word translated as "person" is "hypostasis." The substantial quality, nature, or a person or thing." The same word is rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11:1.

Furthermore, in everycase, here we see the word "person" in the Bible (including "hypostasis" it is routinely used in the original Greek Scriptures in EXACTLY the same way it is used in the Greek use of these Greek words to explain trinitarian theology to Greek speaking people.

And like I said the other term translated as "person" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as "presence" and "countenance" throughout the New Testament. In every case it MEANS that by which the IDENTITY is expressed or manifest--EXACTLY what is means in trinitarian theology when we say ther there are three "persons" who share the same "nature."

Does the word "nature" appear in the Bible? Yes, it does. The Greek word is "phusis." It appears at Galatians 2:15, "We who are Jews by NATURE, and not sinners from among the Gentiles." Or Ephesians 2:3, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." 2 Peter 1:4, "ye might be partakers of the divine nature"

Now, not only does it "appear" in the Bible but the Greek term "phusis" (Strongs number 5449) which refers to "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others is used in the bible in EXACTLY the same way as it is used in trinitarian theology when we say there is ONE god who's nature (that which distinguished Him from all that is NOT GOD is manifest in three persons by which the identity is expressed.

So in summary, if you were to ask me if God is a person, I would say "yes and no." I do not believe God is a person "as we are." I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens in all respects. Personhood is one of those respects. Therefore yes, I believe God is a person "like we are" to a certain extent, but I believe His ONTOLOGICAL self, His whole being is also far beyond "personshood" in the human sense."

The big problem with humans, (and this is in a theological sense especially in regard to Unitarianism and other anti's that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) is that they want to bring God down to a strickly human level. For instance, God is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent. None of the attributes are readily availiable to the finite human mind. I hope this helps.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

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#49
Jun 6, 2020
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#49
bluto said:
I highly suggest Mattathias that your read "carefully" what Craig said here: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

Your misunderstanding the point of what he says. The one person of Jesus Christ "assumed" a human nature and we are not worshiping His nature but rather who He is. Thomas declared (literally) to the one person of Jesus Christ, "The Lord of me and the God of me." If you notice, Thomas was looking at a 100% contingent human being when he said what he said at John 20:28.

So, I guess I will have to bring out the "big guns" and school you on this subject. Does the term "person" appear in the Bible?" Yes! The Greek word for person is "prospon." Strongs #5287. Examples follow.

Matthew 22:16, "....thou regardest not the person of men." Matthew 27:24, "...I am innocent of the blood of this just person" Another one, 2 Corinthinas 2:10, "But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for ou sakes IN THE PERSON/PRESENCE OF CHRIST."

Now pay attention--The word "person" also appears here: Hebrews 1:3, "who being the birghtness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON." this last one is critical because in the original Greek the word translated as "person" is "hypostasis." The substantial quality, nature, or a person or thing." The same word is rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11:1.

Furthermore, in everycase, here we see the word "person" in the Bible (including "hypostasis" it is routinely used in the original Greek Scriptures in EXACTLY the same way it is used in the Greek use of these Greek words to explain trinitarian theology to Greek speaking people.

And like I said the other term translated as "person" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as "presence" and "countenance" throughout the New Testament. In every case it MEANS that by which the IDENTITY is expressed or manifest--EXACTLY what is means in trinitarian theology when we say ther there are three "persons" who share the same "nature."

Does the word "nature" appear in the Bible? Yes, it does. The Greek word is "phusis." It appears at Galatians 2:15, "We who are Jews by NATURE, and not sinners from among the Gentiles." Or Ephesians 2:3, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." 2 Peter 1:4, "ye might be partakers of the divine nature"

Now, not only does it "appear" in the Bible but the Greek term "phusis" (Strongs number 5449) which refers to "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others is used in the bible in EXACTLY the same way as it is used in trinitarian theology when we say there is ONE god who's nature (that which distinguished Him from all that is NOT GOD is manifest in three persons by which the identity is expressed.

So in summary, if you were to ask me if God is a person, I would say "yes and no." I do not believe God is a person "as we are." I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens in all respects. Personhood is one of those respects. Therefore yes, I believe God is a person "like we are" to a certain extent, but I believe His ONTOLOGICAL self, His whole being is also far beyond "personshood" in the human sense."

The big problem with humans, (and this is in a theological sense especially in regard to Unitarianism and other anti's that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) is that they want to bring God down to a strickly human level. For instance, God is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent. None of the attributes are readily availiable to the finite human mind. I hope this helps.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person. - William Lane Craig

He meant what he said.

Go to him with “Jesus was God who became a human person” and he will school you.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#50
Jun 30, 2015
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#50
garee said:
God is not a man . Neither Jewish nor gentile, male or female . God is light. God is Spirit. God is Love. (The trinity.)
Click to expand...
That's not the Trinity of Christian belief.

garee said:
When the Son of man Jesus, the apostle as a prophet left he left clear instructions from the father never again forever and ever more.
Click to expand...
Meaningless redundance.

garee said:
If he did not leave the Holy Spirit could not come in full capacity. This shows us no man can serve two teaching masters (an abomination of desolation.
Click to expand...
Wrong. It shows us no such thing.

garee said:
Blasphemy against the Son of man was forgivable up until the Son of man, Jesus left. The window of forgiveness closed when he disappeared out of sight. Never to reopen ever again. We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after the temporal flesh and blood what the eyes see.
Click to expand...
Wrong. There is nothing in Scripture to support your assertions.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#51
Jun 30, 2015
25,614
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#51
Mattathias said:
There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person. - William Lane Craig

He meant what he said.

Go to him with “Jesus was God who became a human person” and he will school you.
Click to expand...
God to him with "Jesus is not God" and he will school you.
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#52
Jun 6, 2020
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#52
Mattathias said:
There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person. - William Lane Craig

He meant what he said.

Go to him with “Jesus was God who became a human person” and he will school you.
Click to expand...
The next time I see Dr. Craig I’m going to mention our conversation, bluto. (If I show it to him in writing I’ll redact your name.)

Looking forward to hearing what he has to say about an alum who believes what you believe about the Incarnation.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#53
Jul 18, 2017
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#53
Mattathias said:
There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus is a divine person, and medieval theologians were careful never to refer to Jesus as a human person. - William Lane Craig
Click to expand...
This is what happens when people look to theologians for answers rather than to Scripture itself. The statement 'There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.”' is totally false.

Also apparently Craig believes that evolution is compatible with Christianity, which means he has zero credibility. "Our critic this week is Dr. William Lane Craig, a philosophy professor and Christian apologist. Although Craig defends Scripture in some areas, he adamantly denies literal (6-day) creation in favor of the big bang and secular timescale."
https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/apologetics/william-lane-craig-on-young-earth/

There are two heresies regarding Christ which arose quite early -- Monophysitism and Docetism -- and were condemned as heresies.

"Monophysitism is an error concerning the nature of Christ that asserts Jesus had only one nature and not two as is taught in the correct doctrine of the hypostatic union: Jesus is both God and man in one person. In monophysitism, the single nature was divine and not human... The denial of the human nature of Christ is a denial of the true incarnation of the Word as a man. Without a true incarnation there can be no atonement of sin for mankind since it was not then a true man who died for our sins. It was condemned as heresy at the Sixth Ecumenical Council in 680-681."

Docetism was an error with several variations concerning the nature of Christ. Generally, it taught that Jesus only appeared to have a body--that he was not really incarnate (Greek, "dokeo" = "to seem"). This error developed out of the dualistic philosophy which viewed matter as inherently evil--that God could not be associated with matter; and thatGod, being perfect and infinite, could not suffer. Therefore, God as the word, could not have become flesh per John 1:1, 14...

https://carm.org/docetism
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

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#54
Jun 6, 2020
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#54
Nehemiah6 said:
This is what happens when people look to theologians for answers rather than to Scripture itself. The statement 'There is no human person named “Jesus of Nazareth.”' is totally false.
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Craig (and the other Protestant and Catholic scholars I quoted in this thread - many more saying the same thing could be produced, the Church has been saying it for centuries) trace this belief to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD and believe it is supported in scripture. (At least one of the scholars I quoted provided scriptural references which he believes - I don’t - supports orthodoxy.)
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

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#55
Jun 6, 2020
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#55
Mattathias said:
Craig (and the other Protestant and Catholic scholars I quoted in this thread - many more saying the same thing could be produced, the Church has been saying it for centuries) trace this belief to the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD and believe it is supported in scripture. (At least one of the scholars I quoted provided scriptural references which he believes - I don’t - supports orthodoxy.)
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“The orthodox doctrine of the incarnation, promulgated at the Council of Chalcedon is emphatic that in the incarnate Christ there is one and only one, undivided person who has two distinct natures, one human and one divine. That one person is the second person of the Trinity, the Son, and is therefore divine. He is not a human person...” - William Lane Craig

Dr. Craig is doing nothing more than telling his readers what the Church decided was orthodox (i.e. right, correct, true) belief. He’s giving us a (Church) history lesson.

Do you hear this preached from the pulpit? Not likely.
 
G

garee

Banned
#56
Mar 28, 2016
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#56
Dino246, post: 4337000, member: 223333"]That's not the Trinity of Christian belief.
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What ever kind of trinity you desire to believe is fine what I offered rings true .

Meaningless redundance.
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When the parable is not searched out everything becomes redundant

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more

Wrong. There is nothing in Scripture to support your assertions
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Nothing you would admit to . Scriptures does support it .Its why I offered it. Scripture supports us .And we can still only serve one teaching Master the lord not seen . Its his faith that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We put it on as armor

It would seem you are still trying to make God a man .God is Spirit. He is light and Love (trinity) those are the three

God is not a Man .
 
G

garee

Banned
#57
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#57
Mattathias said:
“The orthodox doctrine of the incarnation, promulgated at the Council of Chalcedon is emphatic that in the incarnate Christ there is one and only one, undivided person who has two distinct natures, one human and one divine. That one person is the second person of the Trinity, the Son, and is therefore divine. He is not a human person...” - William Lane Craig

Dr. Craig is doing nothing more than telling his readers what the Church decided was orthodox (i.e. right, correct, true) belief. He’s giving us a (Church) history lesson.

Do you hear this preached from the pulpit? Not likely.
Click to expand...
God is not a man. Not a human person

Supernatural = without nature.

God has no natures, he remains without beginning of days without mother or father or end of spirit life as our high priest continually

Hebrews 7;3 King James Version (KJV) Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#58
Aug 4, 2016
2,118
538
113
#58
Mattathias said:
The next time I see Dr. Craig I’m going to mention our conversation, bluto. (If I show it to him in writing I’ll redact your name.)

Looking forward to hearing what he has to say about an alum who believes what you believe about the Incarnation.
Click to expand...
That's fine, you have my permission and you do not have to "redact" my name. You copy and paste every word I said here:

I highly suggest Mattathias that your read "carefully" what Craig said here: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

Your misunderstanding the point of what he says. The one person of Jesus Christ "assumed" a human nature and we are not worshiping His nature but rather who He is. Thomas declared (literally) to the one person of Jesus Christ, "The Lord of me and the God of me." If you notice, Thomas was looking at a 100% contingent human being when he said what he said at John 20:28.

So, I guess I will have to bring out the "big guns" and school you on this subject. Does the term "person" appear in the Bible?" Yes! The Greek word for person is "prospon." Strongs #5287. Examples follow.

Matthew 22:16, "....thou regardest not the person of men." Matthew 27:24, "...I am innocent of the blood of this just person" Another one, 2 Corinthinas 2:10, "But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for ou sakes IN THE PERSON/PRESENCE OF CHRIST."

Now pay attention--The word "person" also appears here: Hebrews 1:3, "who being the birghtness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON." this last one is critical because in the original Greek the word translated as "person" is "hypostasis." The substantial quality, nature, or a person or thing." The same word is rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11:1.

Furthermore, in everycase, here we see the word "person" in the Bible (including "hypostasis" it is routinely used in the original Greek Scriptures in EXACTLY the same way it is used in the Greek use of these Greek words to explain trinitarian theology to Greek speaking people.

And like I said the other term translated as "person" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as "presence" and "countenance" throughout the New Testament. In every case it MEANS that by which the IDENTITY is expressed or manifest--EXACTLY what is means in trinitarian theology when we say ther there are three "persons" who share the same "nature."

Does the word "nature" appear in the Bible? Yes, it does. The Greek word is "phusis." It appears at Galatians 2:15, "We who are Jews by NATURE, and not sinners from among the Gentiles." Or Ephesians 2:3, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." 2 Peter 1:4, "ye might be partakers of the divine nature"

Now, not only does it "appear" in the Bible but the Greek term "phusis" (Strongs number 5449) which refers to "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others is used in the bible in EXACTLY the same way as it is used in trinitarian theology when we say there is ONE god who's nature (that which distinguished Him from all that is NOT GOD is manifest in three persons by which the identity is expressed.

So in summary, if you were to ask me if God is a person, I would say "yes and no." I do not believe God is a person "as we are." I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens in all respects. Personhood is one of those respects. Therefore yes, I believe God is a person "like we are" to a certain extent, but I believe His ONTOLOGICAL self, His whole being is also far beyond "personshood" in the human sense."

The big problem with humans, (and this is in a theological sense especially in regard to Unitarianism and other anti's that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) is that they want to bring God down to a strickly human level. For instance, God is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent. None of the attributes are readily availiable to the finite human mind. I hope this helps. PS: I'm hoping your an honorable man and tell me "EXACTLY" what he said, leave out nothing.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Mattathias

Mattathias

Banned
#59
Jun 6, 2020
399
41
28
#59
bluto said:
That's fine, you have my permission and you do not have to "redact" my name. You copy and paste every word I said here:

I highly suggest Mattathias that your read "carefully" what Craig said here: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

Your misunderstanding the point of what he says. The one person of Jesus Christ "assumed" a human nature and we are not worshiping His nature but rather who He is. Thomas declared (literally) to the one person of Jesus Christ, "The Lord of me and the God of me." If you notice, Thomas was looking at a 100% contingent human being when he said what he said at John 20:28.

So, I guess I will have to bring out the "big guns" and school you on this subject. Does the term "person" appear in the Bible?" Yes! The Greek word for person is "prospon." Strongs #5287. Examples follow.

Matthew 22:16, "....thou regardest not the person of men." Matthew 27:24, "...I am innocent of the blood of this just person" Another one, 2 Corinthinas 2:10, "But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for ou sakes IN THE PERSON/PRESENCE OF CHRIST."

Now pay attention--The word "person" also appears here: Hebrews 1:3, "who being the birghtness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON." this last one is critical because in the original Greek the word translated as "person" is "hypostasis." The substantial quality, nature, or a person or thing." The same word is rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11:1.

Furthermore, in everycase, here we see the word "person" in the Bible (including "hypostasis" it is routinely used in the original Greek Scriptures in EXACTLY the same way it is used in the Greek use of these Greek words to explain trinitarian theology to Greek speaking people.

And like I said the other term translated as "person" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as "presence" and "countenance" throughout the New Testament. In every case it MEANS that by which the IDENTITY is expressed or manifest--EXACTLY what is means in trinitarian theology when we say ther there are three "persons" who share the same "nature."

Does the word "nature" appear in the Bible? Yes, it does. The Greek word is "phusis." It appears at Galatians 2:15, "We who are Jews by NATURE, and not sinners from among the Gentiles." Or Ephesians 2:3, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." 2 Peter 1:4, "ye might be partakers of the divine nature"

Now, not only does it "appear" in the Bible but the Greek term "phusis" (Strongs number 5449) which refers to "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others is used in the bible in EXACTLY the same way as it is used in trinitarian theology when we say there is ONE god who's nature (that which distinguished Him from all that is NOT GOD is manifest in three persons by which the identity is expressed.

So in summary, if you were to ask me if God is a person, I would say "yes and no." I do not believe God is a person "as we are." I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens in all respects. Personhood is one of those respects. Therefore yes, I believe God is a person "like we are" to a certain extent, but I believe His ONTOLOGICAL self, His whole being is also far beyond "personshood" in the human sense."

The big problem with humans, (and this is in a theological sense especially in regard to Unitarianism and other anti's that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) is that they want to bring God down to a strickly human level. For instance, God is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent. None of the attributes are readily availiable to the finite human mind. I hope this helps.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...
Will do.
 
G

garee

Banned
#60
Mar 28, 2016
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#60
bluto said:
That's fine, you have my permission and you do not have to "redact" my name. You copy and paste every word I said here:

I highly suggest Mattathias that your read "carefully" what Craig said here: https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2015/is-worship-of-jesus-idolatry

Your misunderstanding the point of what he says. The one person of Jesus Christ "assumed" a human nature and we are not worshiping His nature but rather who He is. Thomas declared (literally) to the one person of Jesus Christ, "The Lord of me and the God of me." If you notice, Thomas was looking at a 100% contingent human being when he said what he said at John 20:28.

So, I guess I will have to bring out the "big guns" and school you on this subject. Does the term "person" appear in the Bible?" Yes! The Greek word for person is "prospon." Strongs #5287. Examples follow.

Matthew 22:16, "....thou regardest not the person of men." Matthew 27:24, "...I am innocent of the blood of this just person" Another one, 2 Corinthinas 2:10, "But whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for ou sakes IN THE PERSON/PRESENCE OF CHRIST."

Now pay attention--The word "person" also appears here: Hebrews 1:3, "who being the birghtness of his glory, and the express image of his PERSON." this last one is critical because in the original Greek the word translated as "person" is "hypostasis." The substantial quality, nature, or a person or thing." The same word is rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11:1.

Furthermore, in everycase, here we see the word "person" in the Bible (including "hypostasis" it is routinely used in the original Greek Scriptures in EXACTLY the same way it is used in the Greek use of these Greek words to explain trinitarian theology to Greek speaking people.

And like I said the other term translated as "person" here is "prosopon" whihc is also translated as "face" most often, as "person" and also as "presence" and "countenance" throughout the New Testament. In every case it MEANS that by which the IDENTITY is expressed or manifest--EXACTLY what is means in trinitarian theology when we say ther there are three "persons" who share the same "nature."

Does the word "nature" appear in the Bible? Yes, it does. The Greek word is "phusis." It appears at Galatians 2:15, "We who are Jews by NATURE, and not sinners from among the Gentiles." Or Ephesians 2:3, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." 2 Peter 1:4, "ye might be partakers of the divine nature"

Now, not only does it "appear" in the Bible but the Greek term "phusis" (Strongs number 5449) which refers to "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others is used in the bible in EXACTLY the same way as it is used in trinitarian theology when we say there is ONE god who's nature (that which distinguished Him from all that is NOT GOD is manifest in three persons by which the identity is expressed.

So in summary, if you were to ask me if God is a person, I would say "yes and no." I do not believe God is a person "as we are." I believe His personhood is like ours for we are created in His image and after His likeness. But we are as far below Him as the earth is below the heavens in all respects. Personhood is one of those respects. Therefore yes, I believe God is a person "like we are" to a certain extent, but I believe His ONTOLOGICAL self, His whole being is also far beyond "personshood" in the human sense."

The big problem with humans, (and this is in a theological sense especially in regard to Unitarianism and other anti's that deny the deity of Jesus Christ) is that they want to bring God down to a strickly human level. For instance, God is infinite, omniscient and omnipresent. None of the attributes are readily availiable to the finite human mind. I hope this helps. PS: I'm hoping your an honorable man and tell me "EXACTLY" what he said, leave out nothing.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Click to expand...
Exactly. I would offer .Job sums it up.

God with us

Job 9: 32-33 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
 
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