Not By Works

So when Paul distinguish between truth in time past, before moving into truth in the but now period, you totally ignore what he was doing?

I'm not simply declaring you in error, I've stated two very clear reasons that you are in error. If you truly believe you're not in error the charges I've leveled should be answerable.

When you discussed Christian doctrine in such forums long enough, you should realize this, "You can give people an answer, but you cannot make them understand or agree with your answer"

You've given no such answer, though. All you've done is presented proof texts, which is exactly one of the accusations against your view. It's not a matter of interpreting passages differently, but a clear demonstration of flawed methodology.

I did, when I stated to you earlier

I can give you this answer, but I cannot make you understand nor accept this answer, if you refuse to do so

From the manner in which you ignore those words, time past and but now, used by Paul numerous times, I can see that you don't want to.

So your answer to my accusation that you're relying on proof-texting...is to proof text?

That is your understanding, but not mine.

Again, it's not a matter of understanding. It's a matter of method.

You cite individual passages without context and expect them to be read in your peculiar manner. We're on a Bible discussion forum which means we both should at least hold that there is an actual, true meaning to the text that can be reliably arrived at without need for excessive inference. The only manner in which to do that is by arguing the range of meanings based on context and other literary factors. So to pull out a verse and keep quoting it expecting your opponent to simply agree with you as you continue to quote the same isolated piece of text is a violation of both the basic expectations of a forum such as this and a flawed method of inquiry.

And again, your citation of 2 Timothy 2:15 to build an entire exegetical framework is both missing a contextually supportable position and a demonstration of your willingness to make massive leaps to support what you want it to be rather than what the text is actually saying. It's a case-in-point on your reliance on proof texts.

Its not just 2 Tim 2:15 my dear.

Do you want me to give you a list of all the occasions Paul distinguished between time past and but now?

You know, if the Rapture happens while we are posting, some will be Left Behind. THEY WILL CONTINUE THE ARGUMENTS with out us. How many weeks will go by, before they even notice we are GONE!

but Work itself is a Good thing. that was my point ...


i don't believe in keeping Salvation by Works ... but in Becoming more and more like Jesus Christ.


the Milk of the Gospel is a starting a point, but we must all Leave Milk eventually and Go on to Maturity ...



2 Corinthians 3:18
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Proverbs 4:18
The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining brighter and brighter until midday.


a path ... not a belief

They will argue about whether Paul's letters still contain truth for them, or do they need to follow Hebrews to Revelations from then on

That is my POINT! They argue just because they are ADDICTED TO ARGUING, and it will be weeks before they realize they have already MISSED THE BOAT.


2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (HCSB)
9 The coming ⌊of the lawless one⌋ is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders,
10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. ⌊They perish⌋ because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved.
11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false,
12 so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.

Our righteous works have everything to do with our salvation. Read the gospel of John. For example Jesus says those who love me obey my teaching, and those who do not love me do not obey my teaching. John 14.24. What is his teaching, it is based on doing righteous works, that is the message of the gospels. Belief in Jesus comes though righteous works and besides all of this, God said he would reward righteous deeds at the judgement seat of Christ. Naturally when we want to please Jesus, we show it by being righteous.

Our righteous works have nothing to do with our salvation.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Our salvation will produce righteous works.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You say belief in Jesus comes through righteous works.

Sorry but works are as a result a result of belief.

There will people who come to Him thinking their righteous works will give them entry into the kingdom.....

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7 21:23


I will also add you have reduced Christ Jesus to a good role model and a teacher, casting aside that He is the Saviour who alone possesses righteousness which He imputes to those who are born again in Him.

Wrong.....like all other working for relogionists.....

Saved by faith eternally BEFORE any and all works of righteousness which HAVE NOTHING to do with being saved!

First off, no one has said "works" is not a good thing. 2nd, works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.

Works will never be righteous until/unless one is saved. The only thing righteous works will be accountable for is how God judges them.

Salvation comes from God alone through His Son Jesus Christ.

Sometime I do believe some people only come onto this site just for argument's sake.

IOWs Jesus did nothing.

I understand how you would conclude that. I have seen many small groups of Christians do extensive bible study on 1 John, as well as the gospel of John.

I think its hard for many of us not to be influenced by John since many grew up with John 3:16 in many Sunday schools.

When you take seriously what John was writing, especially in 1 John, you cannot run away from his conclusion that works, especially works involving love, are required for righeousness before Jesus.