If the saved that is dead is in heaven ,With GOD ,Why dose the BIBLE say that the dead can not PRAISE the LORD .

If it is a parable then parables have a lesson which is usually found toward the end of the parable. Using rules of heremeneutics on parables the lesson of this story is that the rich mans brothers have Moses and the Prophets to warn them of the place of torment that they will come to if they die in their sins like the rich man did and if they will not see this warning in Moses and the Prophets they will not listen even if Lazarus were to rise from the dead and go visit them.

So even if you hold to the understanding that it is ONLY a parable and not a story of something that literally happened you MUST concede that the lesson is that the scriptures warn of a place of torment for those who die in their sins BEFORE the resurrection.

His brothers should believe that the scriptures like ... Pr 15:24 24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.

These are all a perspective from the view of those on earth who are called to praise God in the land of the living so that others may hear of the wonderful works of God. It is too late after we die. You fate is sealed after you die. Do it now while others can see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Especially Eccl where Solomon is venting about a frustrating pursuit of the meaning of life that he discovered first hand when he backslid and pursued many things to find satisfaction and this is his testimony of the things he thought and felt from a human perspective. He was telling us what he thought and though they are in the bible and recorded correctly they are not all true statements about the way things really are but the way he perceived them in his pursuit of vanity. To take a statement from the mouth of a venting backslider and use to explain the afterlife is either honest ignorance of hermeneutics or a willful belligerency to use the word of God deceitfully.

The authorial intent is to provoke responses of faith and praise to God while still alive before it is too late. Not to explain the details or mechanics of the afterlife and any attempt to use them in that way and to ignore authorial intent robs your listeners of the glorious truths they were meant to convey and thus you are building with wood, hay and stubble and it will all burn up and you will have no reward for your teachings. Waste of your time. Preach on the real message of these scriptures instead or what they WERE NOT intended to preach.

1 Thess 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Read more than one verse of the Bible some time. It's really amazing.

There is no comma in the original Greek is there?
If we want to know whether a person saying " Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Means that he is telling the person he is speaking to that he is telling him today as in emphasis or means that day he will be in paradise we should look to see if we can find another example where that same speaker was known to use this phrase "verily I say unto you today" did he use it in the past as a way of saying "Listen to me today" or as referencing the actual day something would occur. Well fortunately we do have an example of Jesus using this phrase the day before this one when he spoke to Peter about his denial he said...
Matt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Now it is obvious to all that read Matt 26:34 that Jesus was talking about that Peter denying him that night and not that he was emphasizing to Peter what time of the day he was talking to Peter.

If Jesus used this phrase Verily I say unto thee That this night .. something would happen that night, then we have conclusive evidence that the authorial intent of the SAME SPEAKER saying Verily I say unto thee Today means something would happen that day.

This should forever put to rest the question as to what Jesus meant when he told the Thief he would be with him in Paradise THAT DAY.

Also there were not two ascensions by Christ into heaven. When Mary was clinging to Jesus feet she was the last of a group of women who are clinging to his feet who had already left after Jesus told them to go tell his disciples to meet him. Mary would not quit clinging to him and he had to tell her to stop and that things were different now. Not to be afraid of losing him again, he was going to go to the Father and send the Holy Spirit and that would be what Mary would experience that would replace the physical presence of Jesus that she did not want to give up. That was what he was trying to explain to her. When you compare with the Gospel of Matthew you find the other women clinging to his feet and then leaving after he tells them to go tell his disciples to meet him. A harmony of the Gospels often sheds light on these events. What strange doctrines have been exploded from simply not comparing the details in the other Gospels on this event. There was no trip to heaven to spread blood on an altar. That happened in the spiritual realm when he was crucified. It was an instant application and when he said it is finished it was. What Hebrews speaks about is what Jesus accomplished on the cross not what he did after talking to Mary.

The Old Testament saints expected an afterlife. God told Moses, after Moses went up the mountain (Mount Nebo in the Abarim range) and looked across to the Promised Land, “‘ You too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was’” (Num. 27: 13). Aaron, however, was buried at Mount Hor, and no one knows where God buried Moses (Num. 20: 27-28; Deut. 34: 1,5-6). Therefore, being “gathered to one’s people” can hardly refer to the grave. The phrase also implies that “his people” were still in existence, not annihilated, not nonentities, as Jesus himself pointed out (Luke 20: 38).

Horton, Stanley M

Any yet the Westminster Confession agrees that Christ did not go to "paradise" [or even heaven] that very day. I am therefore for putting a comma after "today" for it to make sense.

Luke 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep

Most people believe that Jesus DID receive Stephen's spirit and that his body is what fell asleep. Fell asleep because it is not permanent, there will be a resurrection of the body. His spirit was received by Jesus and it was not placed in a Matrix like farm of spirit sleeping pods. Stephen alive and conscious.

THE PLACE OF THE AFTERLIFE as viewed in the In the Old Testament the place of the afterlife for the wicked is most often called She’ol (usually translated “hell” or “the grave”). 10 It is also identified with ‘avaddon, “Abaddon, the place of destruction” (Job 26: 6; 31: 12; Ps. 88: 11; Prov. 27: 20), and bor, “the pit,” literally, a cistern, but used metaphorically as the entrance to She’ol or as a synonym for She’ol itself (Ps. 30: 3; Isa. 14: 15; Ezek. 31: 14). When translated “hell” (KJV), however, it is not a place where Satan has his headquarters, nor is it controlled by Satan. God rules it (1 Sam. 2: 6; Ps. 139: 8; Amos 9: 2). She’ol Not the Grave. Because She’ol, “the pit,” “the grave,” “destruction,” and “death” are sometimes parallel in grammatical construction (e.g., Pss. 30: 3; 88: 11-12), some say both She’ol and “the pit” always mean “the grave.” 11 However, when the Bible speaks of graves in an unmistakable way, as when the Israelites asked Moses, “‘ Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die?’” (Exod. 14: 11), another word, qever, is normally used. When Jacob thought Joseph was torn to pieces and obviously not in a grave, Jacob still thought he was in She’ol (Gen. 37: 35). The Bible also pictures people as having some kind of existence in She’ol (Isa. 14: 9-10; Ezek. 32: 21). God acts powerfully and intervenes in She’ol (Ps. 139: 8; Amos 9: 2), and it can do nothing against Him (Job 26: 6). Consequently, others limit it to the place of the afterlife and say it never means the grave. 12 Three passages (Pss. 6: 5; 115: 17-18; Isa. 38: 17-19) are often cited to show that She’ol is the grave. 13 Psalm 6: 5 reads,

“No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave [Heb. She’ol]?” The remembering is, however, parallel to the praising. The same word (Heb. zakhar) is used of a solemn naming of God among the people (Exod. 3: 15). It speaks of an active reminding here on earth, which ends when a person dies. In other words, when the spirit goes to She’ol that person’s praise and testimony to the people here on earth ceases. Psalm 115: 17 speaks of the dead going down into silence. This is from the point of view of people on the earth. However, the Psalmist goes on to say, “It is we who extol the LORD both now and forevermore” (v. 18), which implies a better hope and certainly does not rule out praising the Lord in the afterlife. King Hezekiah in his prayer stated, “In your love you kept me from the pit of destruction: you have put all my sins behind my back. For the grave [Heb. She’ol] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness” (Isa. 38: 17-18). Here Hezekiah was concerned about his testimony and its results among the people. God’s forgiveness of his sins kept him from going to the place of punishment. Now that he was healed, he would see God’s faithfulness— and he did— for fifteen additional years (Isa. 38: 5). Actually, She’ol is often described as a depth that contrasts with the height of heaven (Job 11: 8; Ps. 139: 8; Amos 9: 2). Often the context refers to the anger or wrath of God (Job 14: 13; Pss. 6: 1,5; 88: 3,7; 89: 46,48), and sometimes to both wrath and fire (Deut. 32: 22). In some cases the references are brief, and it seems it is treated simply as the place or the state of the dead. In it the dead are called repha’im, or what we might call “ghosts” (Isa. 14: 9; 26: 14). 14 Other passages refer to some of the dead as ‘elohim, in the sense of “powerful spirit beings” (1 Sam. 28: 13). 15 She’ol Translated as Hadēs. Where the New Testament quotes Old Testament passages referring to She’ol, it translates the word Hadēs, which it sees not as the vague place pagan Greeks talked about but as a place of

punishment (Luke 10: 15; 16: 23-24; cf. Rev. 6: 8; 20: 13). 16 Peter also describes the wicked dead from Noah’s day as “spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3: 19-20). 17 She’ol a Place for the Wicked. In view of this it is important to note that the Old Testament does not teach that everyone goes to She’ol. It is true that Job spoke of death as a beth mo’ed, a “meeting house” for all living (Job 30: 23). But he was simply referring to the fact that all die, not that all go to the same place when they die. Some Old Testament saints had a better hope. Enoch and Elijah were taken directly to heaven (Gen. 5: 24; 2 Kings 2: 11; Heb. 11: 5). When David felt the wrath of God because of his sin, he cried out for mercy to escape going to She’ol (e.g., Ps. 6: 1-5,9). But when his faith rose, his hope was to “dwell in the house of the LORD forever” (Ps. 23: 6; cf. Ps. 17: 15). Though the New Testament identifies Psalm 16: 10 with the death and resurrection of Jesus, the verse that follows it indicates that the path of life made known by God leads to joy in His presence and eternal pleasures at His right hand. Psalm 49: 15 says, after considering the lot of the wicked, who are headed for She’ol, “God, however, will redeem my soul from the hand of She’ol, for He will take me [to himself]” (author’s translation). That is, She’ol is personified as trying to grab him and take him down to the place of punishment, but God redeems and rescues him so that he escapes from having to go to She’ol at all and instead goes into the presence of God. 18 She’ol a Place of Punishment. Several passages clearly indicate that She’ol is a place of punishment for the wicked (Ps. 9: 17; cf. Num. 16: 33; Job 26: 6; Pss. 30: 17-18; 49: 13-15; 55: 15; 88: 11-12; Prov. 5: 5; 7: 27; 9: 18; 15: 10-11; 27: 20; Isa. 38: 18). 19 God said of idolaters, “‘ A fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of She’ol below’” (Deut. 32: 22). “The wicked return [change their total orientation] to She’ol, all the nations [Heb. goyim, “peoples,” especially pagans] that forget God” (Ps. 9: 17). “Let death take my enemies by surprise; let them go down alive to She’ol, for evil

finds lodging among them” (Ps. 55: 15; cf. 55: 23). “My soul is full of trouble and my life draws near She’ol. I am counted among those who go down to the pit. … Your wrath lies heavily upon me” (Ps. 88: 3-4,7). “Her house [the prostitute’s house] is a highway to She’ol, leading down to the [dark] chambers of death” (Prov. 7: 27). “The woman Folly is loud … calling out to those who pass by. … ‘Let all who are simple come in here!’ she says to those who lack judgment. … But little do they know that the dead are there, and her guests are in the depths of She’ol” (Prov. 9: 13,15-16,18). When God pronounced judgment on the city of Tyre, He compared it to “those who go down to the pit,” and said, “‘ I will bring you to a horrible end’” (Ezek. 26: 19-21). Then when judgment comes on the hordes of Egypt, “From within She’ol the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword’” (Ezek. 32: 18-21). In fact, all those Ezekiel mentions as being in She’ol are wicked. 20 When Korah gathered his followers in opposition to Moses and Aaron, God told Moses to warn the assembly, ‘“ Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins.’ … And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them. … They went down alive into She’ol (Num. 16: 23-33). On the other hand, when the spiritist medium at Endor said she saw a spirit coming up out of the ground (Heb. ha’arets) looking like an old man wearing a robe (1 Sam. 28: 13-14), it may be referring to his body rising from the grave and does not prove his soul was in an underworld any more than the fact Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb proves it (John 12: 17). 21 The psalmist Asaph wrote that, in contrast to the destruction of the wicked, “You guide me with your counsel,” that is, while on earth, “and afterward you will take me into glory,” that is, into heaven (Ps. 73: 18-19,24-26; cf. Pss. 16: 9,11; 17: 15). 22 Solomon also declared that “the path of life leads upward [to the place above] for the wise [that is, for those who fear the Lord] in order to avoid She’ol beneath” (Prov. 15: 24, author’s translation). 23 God’s message to Balaam made him recognize that the death of the righteous is better than the death of the wicked (Num. 23: 10)
Horton, Stanley M.. Our Destiny: Biblical Teachings on the Last Things (Kindle Locations 621-640). Logion Press. Kindle Edition.

TWO COMPARTMENTS IN SHE’OL Possibly because of the influence of Greek ideas and possibly also because Jacob, mourning, spoke of going down to She’ol to his son Joseph, later Jews, considering Jacob and Joseph righteous, reasoned that both the righteous and the wicked went to She’ol. So they concluded there must be a special place in She’ol for the righteous. This would call for divisions in She’ol: a place for the righteous as well as for the wicked (1 Enoch 22: 1-14). 24 However, Jacob at that time refused to be comforted, no doubt thinking that both he and Joseph were somehow under God’s judgment. There is no record of Jacob’s seeking the Lord again until after he received the news that Joseph was alive (Gen. 45: 28 through 46: 1). Therefore, Jacob probably considered She’ol a place of punishment. Actually, no passage in the Old Testament clearly necessitates dividing She’ol into two compartments, one for punishment, one for blessing. 25 Dr. William Shedd (1820-94) gave a classic argument against the idea of two compartments. He pointed out: [She’ol] is a fearful, punitive evil, mentioned by the sacred writers to deter men from sin, … and any interpretation that essentially modifies this must therefore be erroneous. [For it to be an] alarm for the wicked, [it must pertain] to them alone. If it is shared with the good, its power to terrify is gone. … It is no answer to this to say that Sheol contains two divisions, Hades and Paradise, and that the wicked go to the former. This is not in the Biblical text, or in its connection. The wicked who are threatened with Sheol … are not threatened with a part … but with the whole. … Sheol is one, undivided, and homogeneous in the inspired representation. … The Biblical Sheol is always an evil, and nothing but an evil. … To say that “the wicked shall be turned into Sheol” (Ps. 9: 17), implies that the righteous shall not be; just as to say that “they who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ shall be punished with everlasting destruction” (2 Thess. 1: 8-9), implies that those who do obey it shall not be. To say that the “steps” of the prostitute “take hold on Sheol” (Prov. 5: 5), is the same as to say that “whoremongers shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” (Rev. 21: 8). To “deliver the soul of a child from Sheol” by parental discipline (Prov. 23: 14), is not to deliver him either from the grave or from the spirit-world, but from the future torment that awaits the morally undisciplined. 26



Horton, Stanley M.. Our Destiny: Biblical Teachings on the Last Things (Kindle Locations 724-728). Logion Press. Kindle Edition.

New Testament Views on Afterlife
New Testament emphasis is on the resurrection of the body rather than on what happens immediately after death. Death was never God’s original intention for humankind and ultimately “there will be no more death” (Rev. 21: 4); death will be “swallowed up in victory” (1 Cor. 15: 54). Although still an enemy, 27 death is no longer to be feared by the saved (1 Cor. 15: 55-57; Heb. 2: 15). For the believer, to live is Christ and to die is gain; that is, to die means a closer relationship with Christ, in effect, more of Him (Phil. 1: 21). Thus, to die and go to be with Christ is far better than remaining in the present body, though we must remain as long as God sees that it is necessary (Phil. 1: 23-24). Then death will bring a rest from (that is, a ceasing of) our earthly labors and sufferings and an entrance into glory (2 Cor. 4: 17; cf. 2 Pet. 1: 10-11; Rev. 14: 13). Jesus in Luke 16: 19-31 describes an unnamed rich man28 who dressed like a king and every day enjoyed a banquet complete with entertainment. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores, who wanted the scraps of food that would be swept out the door for the street dogs. These scavengers, unclean animals under the Law, licked his sores, making him unclean. Lazarus had only one thing in his favor— his name, 29 which means “God is my help” and indicates that in spite of everything he kept his faith in God. At death the angels carried him away to Abraham’s side, 30 which was certainly a place of blessing, for he received comfort there. The rich man after death found himself in agony in the fires of Hadēs. When he looked up, that is, to heaven (cf. Matt. 8: 11-12; Luke 13: 28-29), he saw Abraham and Lazarus “far away.” But it was too late for him to receive help, for Abraham said, “‘ Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us’” (Luke 16: 26). In other words, we see that the destinies of both the wicked and the godly cannot be changed after death. 31 Some treat this account as a parable, since it follows a series of parables, but even in His parables Jesus never said anything that was misleading or contrary to the truth. 32 The difference in the state of the rich man and that of Lazarus also seems to imply that at their death a judgment was made with respect to their destiny. Traditionally this has been called “particular judgment” in contrast to the judgment seat of Christ after the Rapture and the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium. WITH THE LORD The apostle Paul’s desire was to be not with Abraham, however, but with the Lord. He indicated that as soon as he was away from the body (at death), he would be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5: 6-9; Phil. 1: 23). This was Jesus’ promise to the dying thief on the cross, “‘ Today you will be with me in paradise’” (Luke 23: 43), implying immediate fellowship. 33 In a vision Paul was caught up to the third heaven, which he also calls paradise (2 Cor. 12: 1-5), thus identifying paradise with heaven. 34 There he “heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell” (12: 4). 35 Stephen saw heaven open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Whereupon Stephen prayed, “‘ Lord Jesus, receive my spirit’” (Acts 7: 56,59). Clearly, Stephen expected that upon his death, his spirit would be immediately in heaven with Jesus. 36 Hebrews 8: 1-2 also declares that Jesus “sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and … serves in the sanctuary.” This is in line with other passages which recognize that there is a special place in heaven where God manifests himself in a special way at His throne (Ps.

103: 19; Isa. 57: 15; 63: 15; 66: 1; Matt. 5: 34). Solomon recognized that “the heavens, even the highest heaven,” cannot contain God (1 Kings 8: 27), for God is everywhere present “in heaven above and on the earth below” (Deut. 4: 39; cf. Josh. 2: 11). But many passages show God is able to manifest himself and His glory in specific places, and He does so especially in heaven. 37 A PREPARED PLACE Jesus speaks of heaven as a prepared place where there is plenty of room (John 14: 2), not temporary but “eternal dwellings” (Luke 16: 9). It is a place of joy, of fellowship with Christ and other believers, and resounds with worship and singing (Rev. 4: 10-11; 5: 8-14; 14: 2-3; 15: 2-4). There they “rest from their labor” (Rev. 14: 13). “Rest,” however, does not mean sleep, nor being inert or idle. In the Bible, rest “carries with it the idea of satisfaction in labor, or joy in accomplishment,” thus suggesting work, worship, and freedom from the effects of all that is evil. 38 Paul longed to be with Christ (Phil. 1: 23) and, because “our citizenship is in heaven,” he was eager for Jesus to return and “transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body” (Phil. 3: 20-21). Because the resurrection body will be immortal, not subject to death or decay, and because Paul seems to withdraw from the idea of being a naked spirit (2 Cor. 5: 3-4), some teach that in the intermediate state between death and resurrection believers will be disembodied spirits who, however, will be comforted by being with Christ. Others teach that at death believers receive a temporary “heavenly” body, noting that Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with some kind of a body and that white robes were given to the souls of the martyrs in heaven (Luke 9: 30-32; Rev. 6: 9-11). However, Paul was expecting to go to be with the Lord, and being absent from the body hardly means going into another body. 39 Further, the resurrection of the body is clearly at the time of Christ’s coming for His church (Phil. 3: 20-21; 1 Thess. 4: 16-17). 40 Whatever the case, it is clear that we shall know each other in heaven, just as the rich man knew who Abraham was.



Horton, Stanley M.. Our Destiny: Biblical Teachings on the Last Things (Kindle Location 782). Logion Press. Kindle Edition.

You seem to postulate "annihilationism". Jesus surely told us that in Gehenna there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth"....which would require them having teeth...and the ability to feel regret (a physical and conscious existence).

You also seem to assume that "death" means "end of existence". That is your assumption.
In response to this, Paul told us that when we are absent from the body, we will be home with the Lord (2 Cor 5)

What do you have to say about "the spirits who are now in prison" (1 Pet 3:19)
What about Jesus' description of Hades? (Luke 16)


The soul of the believer, at its separation from the body, enters the presence of Christ.

2 Cor. 5:1–8—“if the earthly house of our tabernacle (body) be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed, but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life.… willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord”
—Paul hopes to escape the violent separation of soul and body—the being “unclothed”—by living till the coming of the Lord, and then putting on the heavenly body, as it were, over the present one (ἐπενδύσασθαι); yet whether he lived till Christ’s coming or not, he knew that the soul, when it left the body, would be at home with the Lord.

The dead is referring to one's body which, after death is silent. The spirit within us, at death, is alive and returns to God who gave it. The "silent part" of course is speaking of the body, which is dead and buried, but will one day be joined together again on resurrection day.

I was going to post but its things like this "You are doing well Bud, hold your ground. It never ceases to amaze me how many scriptures they can trash". And you bud62 agree with that?

Saying "Jesus is the only way to the Father "hold your ground.. PRAISE GOD YES!

So if I wrong from the get go.. praise GOD.. nothing to say then

You need to first look at context here . It’s poor practice to look at verse or even worse a few words out of scripture and use it to demonstrate a theological point.
Looking at what is written in the title Psalm 115 is used or in view.
The Psalm is contrasting God ,God’s people with Idols and Idol worshipers. I showed the contrasting verses in bold and italic .

Psalm 115

Isaiah 14:9-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
9 “Hell[a] from beneath is excited about you,
To meet you at your coming;
It stirs up the dead for you,
All the chief ones of the earth;
It has raised up from their thrones
All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you:
‘Have you also become as weak as we?
Have you become like us?

Ezek 32:21
From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, 'They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.'

When Solomon (I believe) wrote that, the dead were not in heaven. That happened the resurrection of Jesus.

I think it could mean that it means the spiritually dead cannot praise God, simply because they do want to.

THE SPIRIR IS THEIR BREATH, AS THE BIBLE TEACHES

Where do you then believe they are?