The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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Apr 5, 2020
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Let me say this again so that even you might understand. The ONLY source for Domitianic timing of Revelation was Irenaeus. Again, Irenaeus gets his information third-hand. Heard it from a friend who...heard it from a friend, who... heard it from another....

All other early Christian writers used Irenaeus as their source for this information such as Eusebius and Jerome and I believe Clement of Alexandria. However, other early Christian writers dated Revelation before the fall of Jerusalem. Andreas, the Bishop of Caesarea, says "John received his revelation under the reign of Vespasian." Andreas was the earliest writer on the subject expect for a few fragments from Victorinus.

Arethas, who followed Andreas in office, agrees. He writes, "Here then were manifestly made known to the Evangelist (John) that things were to befal the Jews in their war against the Romans in the way of avenging the sufferings inflected upon Christ." Thus we have no solid proof of the timing of Revelation whether it be Neroic or Domitianic.

So, we must look for internal proof within Revelation itself. Here, Christ's return was imminent.

Irenaeus was the DISCIPLE of IGGY, who was the Disciple of Polycarp, who was the Disciple of the Apostle John. Not only can you not find this information for yourself because it is right there for all to see, YOU have to consciously deny and ignore it to believe otherwise.

Irenaeus information is 100% legit!
 
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I stand with Biker on the dating of revelation, the preterist claim of the early date is false.

Christiancourier.com

When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
By Wayne Jackson

Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).

A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.

In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.

External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.

Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).​

Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).​
To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.

Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.

The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.

The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).

Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.

Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).

Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.

The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.

Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).


Excellent Sources.

And to back what you have posted is the factual papyrus dating of the Book of Revelations:

Papyrus P98
Papyrus P98 comes from an ancient scroll and contains the earliest manuscript of the book of Revelation. Photo Credit: L’Institut français d’archéologie orientale (IFAO), Wikimedia Commons / Public Domain
Papyrus P98 (P. IFAO inv. 237b [+a]) is a manuscript fragment that contains verses from the first chapter of the book of Revelation. It was copied circa A.D. 100-200, likely in Egypt.9 The manuscript was first published by Guy Wagner in 1971, who dated it to the second century. He did not recognize that it was a biblical text, however, and it wasn’t until 20 years later that Dieter Hagedorn identified it as coming from Rev. 1:13-20. The manuscript is in the collection of L’Institut français d’archéologie orientale (IFAO) in Cairo, Egypt.

In about A.D. 185, Irenaeus wrote that the book of revelation was composed, “almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”10 Domitian reigned from A.D. 81-96, which is one of the reasons many scholars believe the book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John sometime in the 90’s. Thus, P98 was likely copied within about 100 years of the original autograph.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Irenaeus was the DISCIPLE of IGGY, who was the Disciple of Polycarp, who was the Disciple of the Apostle John. Not only can you not find this information for yourself because it is right there for all to see, YOU have to consciously deny and ignore it to believe otherwise.

Irenaeus information is 100% legit!
Being the son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a sailor does not make one a sailor.

Error crept into the church right away.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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Being the son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a son of a sailor does not make one a sailor.

Error crept into the church right away.


Within the flow of Matthew 24, we come to where Christ claims there will be a Tribulation unlike the world has ever seen. He then claims the days will be shorter for the ELECT'S sake.

From this point, Christ then Commands that immediately following this Tribulation, people are to watch the skies. The moon would turn into BLOOD, and the stars will fall (We see a star burning up as it enters the atmosphere now and it sizzles like a firecracker before it finally burns itself up)(I believe what Christ is saying here, these stars are going to crash into the surface of Earth so this is why Him saying falling stars literally means falling stars).

Then Christ stresses that after these signs, Christ is Second Coming like lightning streaking across the sky from East to West and His Angels are going to gather the Elect.




Now, 70 AD happens, and a man named Josephus writes all about the events.

Nowhere can we find in his writings:
1) Tribulation Began
2) the days were shortened
3) Tribulation Ends
4) Moons turns to BLOOD
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect


And if we add for those who believe John was put into Patmos by Nero and wrote Revelations in 67 AD:

Nowhere in Josephus writings can we find:
1) the Beast
2) the False Prophet
3) the Mark of the Beast
4) Satan as a DRAGON
5) People being BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast
6) DEMONS that looked like =
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.


8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.



What I am pointing out here are TWELVE specific things going to happen from what Christ and John have explained.
And according to Josephus, none of those 12 things happened.


Therefore, Christ is speaking about another event and John is not writing about 70 AD (which we know he wrote it in 95 AD about a future event).

Which in my opinion, puts Polycarp's, Iggy's, and Irenaeus' views as being correct!
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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:oops:
Within the flow of Matthew 24, we come to where Christ claims there will be a Tribulation unlike the world has ever seen. He then claims the days will be shorter for the ELECT'S sake.

From this point, Christ then Commands that immediately following this Tribulation, people are to watch the skies. The moon would turn into BLOOD, and the stars will fall (We see a star burning up as it enters the atmosphere now and it sizzles like a firecracker before it finally burns itself up)(I believe what Christ is saying here, these stars are going to crash into the surface of Earth so this is why Him saying falling stars literally means falling stars).

Then Christ stresses that after these signs, Christ is Second Coming like lightning streaking across the sky from East to West and His Angels are going to gather the Elect.




Now, 70 AD happens, and a man named Josephus writes all about the events.

Nowhere can we find in his writings:
1) Tribulation Began
2) the days were shortened
3) Tribulation Ends
4) Moons turns to BLOOD
5) Stars fall to Earth or fall anywhere
6) Christ returns like lightning from East to West and His Angels gather the Elect


And if we add for those who believe John was put into Patmos by Nero and wrote Revelations in 67 AD:

Nowhere in Josephus writings can we find:
1) the Beast
2) the False Prophet
3) the Mark of the Beast
4) Satan as a DRAGON
5) People being BEHEADED for refusing the Mark of the Beast
6) DEMONS that looked like =
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.


8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.



What I am pointing out here are TWELVE specific things going to happen from what Christ and John have explained.
And according to Josephus, none of those 12 things happened.


Therefore, Christ is speaking about another event and John is not writing about 70 AD (which we know he wrote it in 95 AD about a future event).

Which in my opinion, puts Polycarp's, Iggy's, and Irenaeus' views as being correct!
I agree, many events listed that "DIDN'T take place In 67-70AD

The very fact that Matthew 24:29-30 clearly states as seen below "FUTURE" events that completely silences the preterist 67-70AD claim, gone!

1.) Immediately after the tribulation?

2.) They Shall see the Son of Man coming?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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:oops:

I agree, many events listed that "DIDN'T take place In 67-70AD

The very fact that Matthew 24:29-30 clearly states as seen below "FUTURE" events that completely silences the preterist 67-70AD claim, gone!

1.) Immediately after the tribulation?

2.) They Shall see the Son of Man coming?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


I forgot something even more revealing, Josephus also does not write about having 2 Witnesses for 3 1/2 years.
And why this is so Important in my opinion, had Moses/Elijah/Whomever made an appearance, every JEW in Jerusalem would have noticed like the Disciples noticed at the Mount of Transfiguration.

Peter knew right away who was with Christ and wanted to make monuments. So no doubt had there been an actual appearance for 3 1/2 years by Moses/Elijah, that would have been front page news for the first 10 Centuries!
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Multiple Church Fathers place John in the Church of Ephesus around 100 AD when Trajan ruled Rome after the death of Domitian. Their source was John himself. You are quoting Isaac Newton hahahahahahaha wow, you don't think it odd for the first 6 Centuries everyone puts John in Patmos under Domitian and then 700-1200 years later, people not even around John make another claim. Try LOGIC, it seems to be something you clerarly LACK!
You keep making the same false arguments. Only Irenaeus provides a Domitianic timeframe. All the others who claim the same are quoting Irenaeus as their source. Eusebius, who also cites Irenaeus, expresses indecision and doubt as to not only the timing of Revelation but also its authorship. He says, "The opinions respecting the Revelation are still greatly divided." (Eccles Hist iii.24)

To my other friend, Truth7t7, there is ZERO internal evidence for a massive multi-thousand year gap. The writings to the 7 churches were period specific, example - there are no Nicolaitans today." Instead the internal evidence suggests a very near return. "Behold, I come quickly," etc. Every event listed in Revelation happened in the first century. We can take them one-by-one, if you like.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
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:oops:

I agree, many events listed that "DIDN'T take place In 67-70AD

The very fact that Matthew 24:29-30 clearly states as seen below "FUTURE" events that completely silences the preterist 67-70AD claim, gone!

1.) Immediately after the tribulation?

2.) They Shall see the Son of Man coming?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
If you don't understand that the great tribulation happened to Judea and Jerusalem in 67-70 AD, then I can't help you. Read Josephus as he goes into great detail over the miseries they endured before their destruction. One cannot escape a world-wide tribulation by fleeing to the mountains of Judea. The fact that the Church of Jerusalem fled over the mountains to Pella and not one was lost before Titus laid siege proves the point.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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You are equaling Christ, God in the flesh, to Pagans like Nero and Titus?

You need to set the pipe down, IMMEDIATELY!
You need to read more of your Bible. Have you even opened the OT? In the OT how does God deal out punishment to wicked nations? Does He wipe them out with a flood or does He use foreign invaders to overthrow them? What method was employed against wicked Israel in the 6th century BC? Did Babylon invade them, destroy their temple and drag many off captive? This is exactly what happened again in 70 AD!!!

Ditto, Edom, Egypt and Babylon also in the 6th century BC. In each case, the moon turned to blood, the skies were dark, earth quakes happened, terrible storms, etc. These things ALWAYS accompany the presence of GOD. Do some homework and study before you insult those of us who have.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I forgot something even more revealing, Josephus also does not write about having 2 Witnesses for 3 1/2 years.
And why this is so Important in my opinion, had Moses/Elijah/Whomever made an appearance, every JEW in Jerusalem would have noticed like the Disciples noticed at the Mount of Transfiguration.

Peter knew right away who was with Christ and wanted to make monuments. So no doubt had there been an actual appearance for 3 1/2 years by Moses/Elijah, that would have been front page news for the first 10 Centuries!
He doesn't have to name them. Besides they weren't in Jerusalem, they were in Rome. They were in a great city "which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." John is discussing the spiritual make-up of the city, not the geographical location. If they were in Jerusalem, John would have said Jerusalem. But because they were in Rome and he was under Roman rule and arrest, he had to disguise their location. Who crucified our Lord? The Romans.

Thus the two witnesses were Peter and Paul killed by the beast - Nero. Peter and Paul were the two olive trees and two lampstands standing before God as leaders of the Church. They were performing miracles throughout their ministry and nobody could harm them until Nero killed them. Not only were they driving Nero and the Romans crazy, they tormented the Jewish leaders who celebrated the news of their death.

3.5 days later a voice from heaven told them to "Come up here." There was an earthquake. There is always an earthquake in the presence of God as I've been saying.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Did the great tribulation already happen?
We understand by faith the eternal will . Not by sight after what the eyes see, the temporal.

Jesus informs us its an evil generation that seeks after signs and wonders (? ? ?) that cause doubt gospel .None were given .

The propmised ressurection .I will open your graves is still doing it work .The gate will remain open until the last day .

To be absent from the body of death is to be present with the Lord. This occurred when the veil representing the foreskin (circummsion )of the Son of man Jesus the first born had finished all the work necessary..

The Sun was darkened the earth quaked and Satan fell. . losing the abiltlty to deceive all the nations ( Revelation 2O:6) that a person must trust in the corrupted flesh of a Jew.

Even Jesus said of his own flesh it profits for nothing . It was the work of the father working in the apostle Jesus that did profit.

Many simply do not walk by faith and would attribute the work of the unseen Spirit to the flesh. Jesus did not do His own will of the flesh .

And as far a coming he is already here working in the heart of mankind just like he worked in the heart of Able. The first recorded prophet apostle and first recorded martyr .

The Amil position works the best. No sign as a wonder needed. He will leave like a thief in the night on the last day in the twinkling of the eye .No second coming he never left . The Son of man left and has informed us even though some did know him after the corrupted flesh that we know him no more that way forever more ( 2 Corinthians 5:16)

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If Christ is not reigning from within as a kingdom of priest .Then who is? What are some waiting for. Another demonstration of the father and Son of man ? One is all that was propmised.
 
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Papyrus 98 (in the Gregory-Aland numbering), designated by 98, is an early copy of the New Testament in Greek. It is a papyrus manuscript of the Book of Revelation. The manuscript palaeographically had been assigned to years "100–125AD(?)".

So, what happened SOON around 100 AD to roughly 150 AD that was catastrophic?

According to Church history, NADA!

No signs and wonders were given save the sign of Jonas it was wonderfully fulfilled when Jesus said "it is finished" . The abomination of desolation was put to rest when the veil was rent.

No need for bricks to fall in 70 AD .
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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This wrath/vengeance:

Rev 6: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 3: 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ...12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 13: “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”


Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Luke 19: 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Luke 21: 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Col 3: Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

2 Thes 1: in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Heb 10: For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 10: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Rev 19: Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

It's all the same. It's all about one nation, one people. They had to make a choice. 93% made the wrong choice and were killed during the Great Tribulation and it's aftermath. From Moses on down, they all predicted the final outcome for Israel. Today's Israel is not God's chosen nation. The new Jerusalem is not the one east of Tel-Aviv, we believers are the New Jerusalem.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Excellent Sources.

And to back what you have posted is the factual papyrus dating of the Book of Revelations:

Papyrus P98
Papyrus P98 comes from an ancient scroll and contains the earliest manuscript of the book of Revelation. Photo Credit: L’Institut français d’archéologie orientale (IFAO), Wikimedia Commons / Public Domain
Papyrus P98 (P. IFAO inv. 237b [+a]) is a manuscript fragment that contains verses from the first chapter of the book of Revelation. It was copied circa A.D. 100-200, likely in Egypt.9 The manuscript was first published by Guy Wagner in 1971, who dated it to the second century. He did not recognize that it was a biblical text, however, and it wasn’t until 20 years later that Dieter Hagedorn identified it as coming from Rev. 1:13-20. The manuscript is in the collection of L’Institut français d’archéologie orientale (IFAO) in Cairo, Egypt.

In about A.D. 185, Irenaeus wrote that the book of revelation was composed, “almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign.”10 Domitian reigned from A.D. 81-96, which is one of the reasons many scholars believe the book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John sometime in the 90’s. Thus, P98 was likely copied within about 100 years of the original autograph.
There were no photocopiers back then and it was common practice for important papers and documents to be re-written over and over again.

There was no temple to measure during the reign of Domitian.

The Jewish people were wiped out by the time Domitian took the throne. How then could the 144,000 from every tribe be sealed when only 98,000 Jews survived their great tribulation of 70 AD?

No stone remained on top of the other by the end of 70 AD, how then could the 2 witnesses by laying in the streets when there were no streets (assuming your view is correct)?

Your view requires a restored Jewish state (Done) and temple (Not Done). If Revelation applied to a future Jerusalem 2,000 years from when it was written, where is the Revelation that applied to the one of 70 AD? The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, chronicles the history of Israel in great detail from its birth to Christ. Are we to believe the end of Israel in 70 AD barely gets a mention? Are we to believe when 93% of the nation is killed and it's entire nation is left in ruins so shortly after Christ gets no air time after following Israel for 2,000 years? Are we to believe that after the Roman Gentiles trod down the city and took away captives that Luke 21 isn't talking about those captives but rather future captives thousands of years later? If so, where is the mention of the 70 AD captives taken to Rome and scattered throughout?

When Jesus said He would return to that same generation He was speaking too and that some standing there would witness it that He was wrong? Are we to believe that the Lord's enemies are not the Jewish religious leaders He clashed with constantly and who had Him crucified, rather they are some future generation 100s of generations later? What crime is bigger than not only denying Christ but brutally murdering the Son of God as well? There is been evil and debauchery throughout history. Oh, the world is going to be judged again per Rev 20. That much is certain, but it will be quick, fire from heaven.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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This wrath/vengeance:

Rev 6: “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 3: 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ...12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 13: “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Luke 19: 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Luke 21: 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Col 3: Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

2 Thes 1: in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Heb 10: For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Mat 10: “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Is the same as this wrath/vengeance:

Rev 19: Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

It's all the same. It's all about one nation, one people. They had to make a choice. 93% made the wrong choice and were killed during the Great Tribulation and it's aftermath. From Moses on down, they all predicted the final outcome for Israel. Today's Israel is not God's chosen nation. The new Jerusalem is not the one east of Tel-Aviv, we believers are the New Jerusalem.
Yes one nation called the Christian. She as the bride is a nation made up of all the nations of the word. She according to the new name the father named her in Acts . "Christian" is defined as residents of the heavenly Jerusalem the city of Christ. .Not the type on earth, the temporal, used a shadow.

She is named after her husband Christ. Previously before the reformation he called his bride Israel . The new name Christian. . . more befitting .
 
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The complete chapter of Matthew 24 was written to answer the two questions of verse (3) seen below?

(Future Events Unfulfilled)

1.) The second coming of Jesus Christ.

2.) The end of this world.

Matthew 24:3KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Postribs always say the 3 questions are 2
 
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You keep making the same false arguments. Only Irenaeus provides a Domitianic timeframe. All the others who claim the same are quoting Irenaeus as their source. Eusebius, who also cites Irenaeus, expresses indecision and doubt as to not only the timing of Revelation but also its authorship. He says, "The opinions respecting the Revelation are still greatly divided." (Eccles Hist iii.24)

To my other friend, Truth7t7, there is ZERO internal evidence for a massive multi-thousand year gap. The writings to the 7 churches were period specific, example - there are no Nicolaitans today." Instead the internal evidence suggests a very near return. "Behold, I come quickly," etc. Every event listed in Revelation happened in the first century. We can take them one-by-one, if you like.


Irenaeus says it happened almost in HIS LIFETIME:

“Had there been any need for his name to be openly announced at the present time, it would have been stated by the one who saw the actual revelation. For it was seen not a long time back, but almost in my own lifetime, at the end of Domitian’s reign.” (Against Heresies, 5.30.3)

^
Just like I was born in the 1970's but I am very familiar with things that happened in the 1940s-up till and throughout my lifetime!

You go ahead and believe that 1600 year later quote by Newton but I also provided 13 EVENTS that Christ mentioned in Matthew 24 and John mentions in Revelation that Josephus claims never took place in 70 AD.

You are believing a False Doctrine and are no different than a Mormon or Jw!
 
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You need to read more of your Bible. Have you even opened the OT? In the OT how does God deal out punishment to wicked nations? Does He wipe them out with a flood or does He use foreign invaders to overthrow them? What method was employed against wicked Israel in the 6th century BC? Did Babylon invade them, destroy their temple and drag many off captive? This is exactly what happened again in 70 AD!!!

Ditto, Edom, Egypt and Babylon also in the 6th century BC. In each case, the moon turned to blood, the skies were dark, earth quakes happened, terrible storms, etc. These things ALWAYS accompany the presence of GOD. Do some homework and study before you insult those of us who have.


When I read your views, I understand just how Real the Stupid actually is!
 
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He doesn't have to name them. Besides they weren't in Jerusalem, they were in Rome. They were in a great city "which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." John is discussing the spiritual make-up of the city, not the geographical location. If they were in Jerusalem, John would have said Jerusalem. But because they were in Rome and he was under Roman rule and arrest, he had to disguise their location. Who crucified our Lord? The Romans.

Thus the two witnesses were Peter and Paul killed by the beast - Nero. Peter and Paul were the two olive trees and two lampstands standing before God as leaders of the Church. They were performing miracles throughout their ministry and nobody could harm them until Nero killed them. Not only were they driving Nero and the Romans crazy, they tormented the Jewish leaders who celebrated the news of their death.

3.5 days later a voice from heaven told them to "Come up here." There was an earthquake. There is always an earthquake in the presence of God as I've been saying.


You are Delusional!

I will give you the name of my office so you can come and be mentally evaluated. You need to refill your prescription!
 
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There were no photocopiers back then and it was common practice for important papers and documents to be re-written over and over again.

There was no temple to measure during the reign of Domitian.

The Jewish people were wiped out by the time Domitian took the throne. How then could the 144,000 from every tribe be sealed when only 98,000 Jews survived their great tribulation of 70 AD?

No stone remained on top of the other by the end of 70 AD, how then could the 2 witnesses by laying in the streets when there were no streets (assuming your view is correct)?

Your view requires a restored Jewish state (Done) and temple (Not Done). If Revelation applied to a future Jerusalem 2,000 years from when it was written, where is the Revelation that applied to the one of 70 AD? The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, chronicles the history of Israel in great detail from its birth to Christ. Are we to believe the end of Israel in 70 AD barely gets a mention? Are we to believe when 93% of the nation is killed and it's entire nation is left in ruins so shortly after Christ gets no air time after following Israel for 2,000 years? Are we to believe that after the Roman Gentiles trod down the city and took away captives that Luke 21 isn't talking about those captives but rather future captives thousands of years later? If so, where is the mention of the 70 AD captives taken to Rome and scattered throughout?

When Jesus said He would return to that same generation He was speaking too and that some standing there would witness it that He was wrong? Are we to believe that the Lord's enemies are not the Jewish religious leaders He clashed with constantly and who had Him crucified, rather they are some future generation 100s of generations later? What crime is bigger than not only denying Christ but brutally murdering the Son of God as well? There is been evil and debauchery throughout history. Oh, the world is going to be judged again per Rev 20. That much is certain, but it will be quick, fire from heaven.



What do you mean there were no copy machines back then?
We had SCRIBES!