TRuth Vs. Beliefs: Would you Read a Book Whose Back Cover Said This:

Atheist are doing very badly on epistemology (theory of knowledge) so anything they say can fly right outta window. They worship empiricism and logic, yet there are several more valid methods of acquiring knowledge that they choose to ignore. It's beyond bias.

As I read your post, different responses came up. Intellectual assent is not the same as faith. That you can be reasoned to believe, means that you can be reasoned to not believe. Your stance leaves you open to deception, if you encounter a non-believer well articulated enough to satisfy your reasoning.

If you claim you cannot know the truth (with a hundred percent certainty), but you only believe what you currently believe to be truth then you never knew the truth to begin with. You only believe what satisfies your mind or reasoning. Then someone crafty comes along, exposes the perceived flaw of your reasoning, and then you are led astray. Your confidence is in your intelligence, to determine truth.

Knowing the truth, and believing the truth. Can you imagine saying, “I am open to believing that Jesus Christ is not my Lord and Savior?” How insulting! There are truths and then lies, truth is not subject to change. It is absolute. Yet you would recognize truth and be open to persuasion, that would have you reject it.

Your mindset that all your beliefs are open to scrutiny and therefore guarantees you’ll know the truth, seems sound (to you). Yet, don’t forget we build precept upon precept. If you cannot know the truth, believe it, and have faith in it you are tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine.

There is a difference between “I believe in God” and “I know God.” One is intellectual assent and the other experiential.

It seems illogical to me, that you would profess to know truth but be willing to change truth given sufficient persuasion. I suppose that is how I would sum up my point.

Beliefs are subject to change, truth is not. What you believe to be true may change, but regardless truth remains constant. You may be seeking truth, but at some point you have to know the truth. Otherwise you’re always in pursuit but having never obtained.

Jesus says He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. This is the truth, and do you believe it? It is not subject to change. People who have sought truth have been led to Christ. They have obtained truth, and are no longer in pursuit of it (in so far as reaching a conclusion).

At what point do you know the truth?

That's a big part of it, a lot of belief in lies is do to a belief in 10-15% of the passages that apply. The rest is left out of the equation altogether. This results in a ton of "religious" people believing incorrect doctrines. No truth is negotiable. Either it is the fullness of the truth, with everything that might apply cut straight, making God, God's people and God's word 100% consistent in all they say and do and don't say and don't do or it is a partial, incorrect, incomplete, ... guess made into a belief... a belief in a lie. Almost every belief group believes there are tons of things that are "non-negotiable". they just have completely different, and even opposite lists.

God is not inconsistent, His word is not inconsistent. His people are not inconsistent, and since He promises to reprove those whom He lovbes, if you do not see God's reproof when they are inconsistent, then any belief that would be contrary contradicts God and His word. Deception can only happen in an environment of partial truths twisted to fit beliefs, not when everything that "Might pertain" to the topic at hand is cut straight making God, God's people and His word 100% consistent. Inconsistencies always point out erroneous beliefs.

For example: If you believe that the best way to pray on every issue is, God, you know what's best, that is what I am asking for you to do in this situation.", it seems good, few can find a problem with it. Yet, Jesus Himself prayed three times not to have to go to the cross and suffer, knowing full well that this was why He came in the first place. He prayed CONTRARY to the will of God. Yet finished with, nevertheless your will, not My will be done. In other words, pray what is on your heart, even if you know it is not God's best, but when all is said and done, acknowledge Him and go with whatever He decides. It may seem minor, but one is an incorrect interpretation based on partial, good seeming, doctrine, that contradicts what Christ HImself did.

The good news ... everyone in every belief group on the planet agrees with you. If you have any question that their core beliefs might not be truth, then you never had true faith in the truth(Their beliefs) in the first place. THey would also say exactly as you do. Anything that might cause you to doubt is lies and deception. My confidence is in the reliability and consistency in God, God's word, and God's people when absolutely everything that "Might pertain" to any given topic is cut straight. Every lie and deception out there is based on partial information interpreted and twisted to fit the beliefs while everything that might seem to disagree is discredited, invalidated, ignored, distorted or reinterpreted to fit what each group wants to believe.

There's the point. I do not trust in my own ability. I trust the God who says that if you keep on continuously seeking as a habit and way of life and never stop, eventually you will find. WHo says, Keep on continuously proving ALL things over and over again as a habit and way of life and hold fast to what is good/true. Not .keep proving your beliefs true and hold fast to them.

Knowing the truth, and believing the truth. Can you imagine saying, “I am open to believing that Jesus Christ is not my Lord and Savior?” How insulting! There are truths and then lies, truth is not subject to change. It is absolute. Yet you would recognize truth and be open to persuasion, that would have you reject it.

Exactly, we build precept upon precept. Ergo, when we start making conclusions based on partial, incorrect or misinterpreted information, our next doctrines are incorporated in the initial beliefs ... if all beliefs are not subject to reexamination in the light of the rest of the facts, and the rest of the rules for eventually getting to truth even the truth we have will be taken from us because of the faulty foundations we started with. Look at the cults and all the people out there who believe they are right with God, including the lost Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus day.

The last thing people who gather anything anybody might seem to think might apply to a given topic, who rightly divide every single piece of it so that it fully conforms to the flow of thought, flow of discussion ... and consistent meaning of words as they are used throughout the scriptures, holding to God, God's word, and God's people being 100% consistent in all they say and all they do and don't say and don't do ... is being tossed to and fro.

Most belief groups who believe they are Christian, from the Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholics, to the Baptists, Lutherans ... have all gathered about 5-7% of the passages that pertain to salvation in the N.T.. They then interpret their "selected" passages in the light of their beliefs, and discredit, invalidate, reinterpret ... everything that might seem to contradict. When you have the over 850 verses in the N.T. that pertain, the picture is a bit more complete and distortion is nigh impossible. Imagine a 500 piece puzzle. Your group gathers 25 pieces, the next group gathers 25 pieces, the next group 25 pieces the last group 25 pieces, all from different corners of the puzzle. Their conclusions all differ greatly. Now,seeking to gather and put together every possible piece that might pertain, I gather 450 pieces and put those together properly. Sure, I may have missed a few pieces that are key to 100% completely correct interpretation. Ergo I remain open to anyone who may have found something I missed, and indeed, I may have missed the one key piece that makes a revision of my beliefs necessary. Meanwhile every other person from every other belief group is reinterpreting anything that doesn't seem to fit with what they know is truth in the light of their selected data and their interpretations of that selected data.

My beliefs are probably as firm as yours are, as I do hold fast to what I currently believe "as" truth, but I understand that those with a different belief might have one of the important pieces I may have missed, and that I am just as prone to misinterpreting data to fit what I currently as the next guy is, so relooking does me no harm. True, rarely now does any belief even flicker for a moment. Yet, there have been beliefs I held to as fact for 20 years that the evidence persuaded me to change. Closed eyes and ears are not a sign of the God fearing, truth loving, Christian. They are a sign of the religious lost.

There is a difference between “I believe in God” and “I know God.” One is intellectual assent and the other experiential.[/QUOTE]

The good news is that everyone who believes there is a God and believes they have a solid basis for their faith, regardless of their beliefs or belief group agrees with you. The bad news is, that everyone who believes there is a God and believes they have a solid basis for their faith, regardless of their beliefs or belief group agrees with you.

They may hold to different core beliefs, but when it comes to their beliefs, all are just as non-negotiable. WHy? WHen eliefs = truth and are considered unquestionable, every "valid" fact needs to be interpreted in the light of the absolute truth: Their core beliefs. ANything in this category results in closed eyes and ears to even considering anything else. Thus all the closed minded people in every different belief ggroup in the world all doing the exact same things to hold fast to what they want to believe as truth.

Truth never changes, nor would I ever try and change it to fit any belief. THe truth is more sacred to me than any and all of my beliefs. Thus, I will not try and force the truth to conform to any of them, nor would I ever intentionally leave anything that might pertain to a topic out, nor distort any meaning to try and make it conform to my desires. That's the point. My beliefs differ in some ways from what 95% of conservative Christianity holds fast to. Why? Because I don't want to fit in? Because I don't want to be unified in all doctrines and beliefs? Because I love truth and will not alter it, force it to conform to majority belief, ignoring, distorting, twisting ... scripture to try and force it to to fit their beliefs so I can fit in. Have I become their enemy because I tell them the truth. In many cases, yes. But if my goal is to be pleasing to men, I cannot be pleasing to God. Thus the choice is made.

Maybe we are not as far apart as it seemed. All my beliefs are subject to change ... but with all the evidence cut-straight.


Again, we have full agreement.

I believe that all my beliefs "are" truth, right now, knowing full well that some are off a little, and some could be dramatically off from the truth. It doesn't change my assurance, but knowing my own fallibility I have to remain open if I truly love truth. Call it open handed truth.

If you have the facts, rightly divided, when every other fact that pertains is also rightly divided, combined so that everything fits with it's surrounding context, without adding, subtracting or distorting anything to try and force it to conform to a belief or belief set, I am open to altering any or all of them. I keep on consistently seeking and never stop because I am commanded to . I keep on habitually seeking to cut-straight every passage that pertains to every issue because I am commanded to. I keep on proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and I hold fast to what is good/true and not to my beliefs because I am commanded to do so. If you love Me you will keep My commandments. I obey because I believe... because I love.

Truth never changes. Truth lovers are always open to altering their beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth of every possible fact that might apply when all of those facts are cutstraight free from adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting meaning to try and force it to conform to their beliefs.

"Beliefs are subject to change, truth is not. What you believe to be true may change, but regardless truth remains constant. You may be seeking truth, but at some point you have to know the truth. Otherwise you’re always in pursuit but having never obtained."

If we keep on obeying what God commands us to keep on habitually doing, seeking, proving, examining ... as a habit and way of life, He guarantees that we will eventually find. Unfortunately 99% of the people in all the belief groups in the world agree with you. they have arrived. They KNOW their beliefs = Fact. the problem is that they are no longer doing what God says is a requirement to eventually find. thus, they will die with their beliefs intact... and go to hell for it.

If we do as God commands, not just believe we are doing it, and never stop, we are guaranteed the truth/Holy Spirit before we die. 97% of the people in this world who believe themselves to be Christian have either stopped or never even began. The promises in scripture are in the present tense, ongoing continuous action till death. Almost every person in every belief group on the planet gets to the point where they stop seeking because they KNOW their beliefs are truth. If every person in every belief group gets to truth your point is valid, otherwise it is one of the most eternally dangerous beliefs out there.

I know I am as prone to error as the people in the belief groups I hold to as most deceived. I am not proud and arrogant enough to believe that I will arrive at any beliefs that will not need at least minor tweaking before I die. Some may need major revision. I have been wrong before and pulled people from Christianity into Atheism ... sincerely, knowing I was right, having amassed everything I needed to persuade dozens of Christians their beliefs were lies.

In the late 1800's the horse is the primary source for the locomotion (motion) of vehicles used by people for transportation.

In 2020, is the horse the primary source for the locomotion (motion) of vehicles used by people for transportation?

The truth was, and still is, that if the technology from 2020 was available on the 1800's it would have been superior in most ways.

Truth, even undiscovered truth, is still truth. Truth, even if rejected by the masses, is still truth. Truth remains. Our openness to it, or if we close our eyes and ears to even considering it, doesn't change truth. As a matter of fact, everyone gets what they want if they don't love truth more than their beliefs. God guarantees you will have what you need to get what you really love, either truth, if you love that, or proof that your beliefs are truth, if you love what you believe.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

The starting word in verse 13 indicates that Paul applied the same standard as was applied to the lost in verses 10-12 to those in his audience starting in verse 13, and they passed the same test. Thus they ended up with "faith in the truth". Since this was in effect when it was written and still will be in effect in the end times, this makes this passage a timeless truth. If you don't love truth more than you love your current beliefs you have picked the side you are on. Doesn't matter how vehemently you believe it. THose who believe leis as truth and truth to be lies with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, even those who believe He is their Lord God and Savior in Mat.7, and are lost and never were known by Christ ... that also comes from God Himself.

your posts are so awesome, one after another! how do you do it.


i might not believe with everything you say even tho i liked a bunch of them btw. like this last one, I'm not sure its all pride and arrogance or that every EVERY group has that, maybe all groups have that some, maybe to a degree or another, but maybe there is alot sincerity in the some groups also? a thought.

Yep every group, including the religious lost Pharisees and Saducees, know that their core beliefs are infallible. THe thing is, only one being is infallible. Anytime what we are is the equal of God Himself, i.e. infallible, what do you call it. Personally, I'm human and fallible and prone to error, and believing lies as truth and truth to be lies EXACTLY the same as everyone in every other belief group on the planet. That is why God says that if we want truth eventually, we can't stop seeking, proving all things over and over again and altering them in accordance with what is good/true, rightly dividing everything He says and means on every topic ... or we merely end up believing what we want to believe. That is why the path to heaven is so narrow(LIterally "to groan" to get through, and the path that leads to destruction, the "Many will say to Me Lord, Lord, did we not do ____ in your name and in Your Name ____ and ____" is so wide that thousands a day try to cross over to Him. Believing He is their Lord, God and Savior.

Mat 7 is talking about the % of CHristians that are really going. THe fruits we are to judge them based on are found in verses 1-6 of the chapter. How do they respond when what is holy, pearls ... are cast before them. DO they keep on seeking, proving, knocking, examining the scriptures diligently daily ... or do they stop doing so like those that KNOW they are right with God, Know their core beliefs are infallible, ... and thus get angry that you could even suggest that they might be on the broad path with the rest of the Many Jesus will say He never knew because their core beliefs are infallible, or go yeah, yeah, but we have the truth and merely trample what is said under foot because they KNOW the truth. Amazingly even though Jesus is talking about a path so broad that thousands of Christians try and cross that way verses one so narrow you have to groan to get through, there is not a belief group that calls themselves Christians that believes the passage applies to them.

Do you doubt the sincerity of those that strap bombs to their own kids to kill infidels, or flew planes into the twin towers? I don't, there zeal for the God they believe in is unquestionable. God also does not doubt their zeal, just their salvation.

om 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
Rom 10:2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

If you go to scripture to seek out what you can "use" to hold fast to your beliefs, and to gather what you can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false, and interpret your selected data in the light of your beliefs, and then interpret everything else in the light of your beliefs and selected data, discrediting, invalidating, or reinterpreting everything else that doesn't seem to fit, you can believe anything you want or disbelieve anything you want with impunity. Doing more of it merely hardens you into your current beliefs making it more and more unlikely that you will give serious credence to ANYTHING that doesn't fit what you want to believe as truth.

The thing is, you can do this and be an Atheist, an Agnostic, a Jew, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, a Baptist, a Lutheran, a non-denominational Christian, a Charismatic, a ... fill in the blank with any belief group on the planet. THis Methodology allows everyone to prove anything they want to be truth, or prove the exact same belief false in accordance with the desires of the group. This Methodology is in use wherever there is an unquestionably true belief in any and every group. God says this is what He is doing with ALL these people, whether they believe Jesus is their Lord God or Savior or not:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Paul "tested" the people alive in the first century according to the same standard, and because they did receive a love of the truth that far exceeded their love and zeal for their beliefs, they got to the truth. Every group that believes lies as truth and truth to be lies uses the exact same Methodology to "justify" the unquestionable accuracy of their core beliefs. EVERY GROUP. No exceptions. THere is no difference in the Methodology Atheists use Romans 1:18-32 than there is for the religious lost in Romans 10:1-3 than for the lost people who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior in Matthew 7. If you want the same results, being lost, needing salvation, believing you are right with all your heart, mind soul and strength, then you use the same Method every other belief group on the planet uses to hold fast to what they want to believe "as" truth.

If you want truth, if you truly want the one who is the way the truth and the life, who no one who doesn't get to will ever see the Father, if you want the Holy Spirit you will keep on seeking, knocking, examining the scriptures to see if what is said is so, keep on proving all things over and over again and never stop, you will avoid the Methodology every group uses to hold fast to what they want to believe as truth, and you will warn the many on the broad path that leads to destruction that if they don't avoid that if they don't change their goals, if they don't give up their concept of having unquestionably true beliefs, that if they don't keep on habitually doing what God commands ALL His people to keep on habitually doing for the rest of their lives ... regardless of their beliefs, God says they are headed for hell and will receive a deluding influence to believe lies.

Man can be decieved.
Jesus can not be decieved.
Truth is not a concept. It is a person.
Jesus is truth.

Truth outside of Jesus is mental philosophy.
Awesome is Jesus....not some philosophy.

Learn about Jesus.
Belief vs truth is a partial slice of the pie.

...and that is bs.
Believing in Jesus and placing him as Lord God and savior is not being lost.

Truth is connected to Jesus.

Rethink your doctrine.

It is ironic how you preach truth as the root. And miss truth.

That is just another nonsensical slogan. Only repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ saves (Acts 16:30,31). He is also "the Truth".

Amen to that... " 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

The Muslims believe in Jesus, the Mormons believe in Jesus, The Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus, the Roman Catholics believe in Jesus ... most of the world believes in Jesus, as an Atheist I believed in Jesus ...and everyone believes their beliefs about Him are correct.
If we miss the truth, did we find Jesus?

Every belief group that believes they are Christians agree.

KIf you don't have the truth, all the belief in the world, accompanied by all the zeal anyone can possibly have in the light of their beliefs, does not save.