Today’s church’s misunderstandings

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#41
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#41
You know Blik is actually correet in stating that the sabbath was not canceled but in now way was saying that everyone has to do it. The Sabbath like the rest of the holy feast days has a prophetic meaning and purpose and to throw it away because we are in a new covanent would be like throwing away the ot it was also under an old covanent but we still see it as the word of God and God specifically said how imprtant these feast days are to him did he not?

A quick run down about the sabbath and it's prophetic meaning is to rest in the Lord a symbolism of peace and rest in Jesus Christ it was not merely about not working. And so now we live in the sabbath because we live and rest in the love and grace of Jesus Christ we are no longer in labor for God's grace for our sins however honoring the sabbath remembering what was done for us meditating on it is also honoring God and Jesus so it may have been obolished but God is honored by those who honor the feast days.

Why do you think before Jesus went to die for our sins he celebrated the sabbath the very prophetic holiday of resting in him? It is wise to meditate and honor him for his sacrifice every day but to set aside a day specifically for the eason and purpose it was created by God to begin with gives a sacredness to it and by doing so pleases the Lord.
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
#42
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
#42
Word of God never passes away. Jesus came to give us the promised rest that Joshua spoke about (Heb 4) and this Sabbath/rest with God is death to self... My old self is buried with Jesus and resting from my ungodly and unfruitful labors.

Some people believe they should keep the literal holiday too. Which is fine. I would rethink this myself if I were Jewish. But esteeming days, especially for Gentiles, is in the New Testament among things where doubtful disputations are to be avoided, never to be promoted to others with judgment, the Bible is clear on this. People who keep tearing others down in spite of the Bible's extremely clear address of this, are nothing short of rebellion, stiff-neckedness and hypocrisy, and should be ignored. Not accusing anyone specifically because I don't have time to read threads that look the same in depth, just saying, I will consider that people who get angry at this have recognized themselves.

Kingdom of God is always "kept holy" , not just once a week. As we are now part of it, we partake in Jesus' holiness, I believe and nothing will sway me, that Sabbath is found in Jesus. I rest in Jesus of my works, not just one day of the week, 24/7 I am to be after our Father's business. So it seems like slacking off when observed superficially, but actually as all other things with Jesus, it's a way stricter standard which reflects God's perfection. "You have heard... But I tell you..." Etc.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#43
May 23, 2012
13,006
4,313
113
#43
Blik said:
Do you really think that God tells us one thing in Genesis (scripture) and a completely different thing in other scriptures? If that was so then scripture would not be truth at all.
Click to expand...
on ‘the first day of the week’ as the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.” It goes on to list Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:9–20 and John 20:19
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#44
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#44
SoulWeaver said:
Word of God never passes away. Jesus came to give us the promised rest that Joshua spoke about (Heb 4) and this Sabbath/rest with God is death to self... My old self is buried with Jesus and resting from my ungodly and unfruitful labors.

Some people believe they should keep the literal holiday too. Which is fine. I would rethink this myself if I were Jewish. But esteeming days, especially for Gentiles, is in the New Testament among things where doubtful disputations are to be avoided, never to be promoted to others with judgment, the Bible is clear on this. People who keep tearing others down in spite of the Bible's extremely clear address of this, are nothing short of rebellion, stiff-neckedness and hypocrisy, and should be ignored. Not accusing anyone specifically because I don't have time to read threads that look the same in depth, just saying, I will consider that people who get angry at this have recognized themselves.

Kingdom of God is always "kept holy" , not just once a week. As we are now part of it, we partake in Jesus' holiness, I believe and nothing will sway me, that Sabbath is found in Jesus. I rest in Jesus of my works, not just one day of the week, 24/7 I am to be after our Father's business. So it seems like slacking off when observed superficially, but actually as all other things with Jesus, it's a way stricter standard which reflects God's perfection. "You have heard... But I tell you..." Etc.
Click to expand...
But this post is not about people's personal decision about what to do about the Sabbath. That is up to every individual. It is about what scripture is telling us and I am questioning many different areas that I think what the majority of churches teach and what scripture says differs.

AS an example, I do not see how you can say that resting in the Lord cancels the Lord telling us to keep the Sabbath Holy. If you rested in the Lord you would follow the Lord. If it is right to rest in the Lord, that is not the same as saying the Lord tells us not to keep the Sabbath Holy. You reasoning doesn't add up.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#45
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#45
CS1 said:
on ‘the first day of the week’ as the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.” It goes on to list Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, John 20:1, Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:9–20 and John 20:19
Click to expand...
On the first day of the week it was discovered (I keep repeating) that Christ rose. It does not say that Christ rose on the first day of the week, you are adding that to scripture as if you were God writing it.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#46
May 23, 2012
13,006
4,313
113
#46
Blik said:
On the first day of the week it was discovered (I keep repeating) that Christ rose. It does not say that Christ rose on the first day of the week, you are adding that to scripture as if you were God writing it.
Click to expand...

After the Sabbath (the seventh day) , at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.


Matthew 28:1
what is the the day that the Sabbath( the seventh day) on ? it starts on the going down of the sun on Friday ends on sundown on Saturday .

Mock 16:1-2

When the Sabbath (the seventh day) was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb


Luke 24:1-2

On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#47
May 23, 2012
13,006
4,313
113
#47
Blik said:
On the first day of the week it was discovered (I keep repeating) that Christ rose. It does not say that Christ rose on the first day of the week, you are adding that to scripture as if you were God writing it.
Click to expand...
please save your false comments. Your issue is what the Gospel say not me.
 
D

DWR

Guest
#48
#48
Have you noticed that these who insist the Sabbath be kept fail to do so themselves.
They are on the internet posting.
By doing so they are forcing people to work on the Sabbath.
Is that not breaking the Sabbath?
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
#49
Oct 25, 2014
4,889
2,534
113
#49
Blik said:
But this post is not about people's personal decision about what to do about the Sabbath. That is up to every individual. It is about what scripture is telling us and I am questioning many different areas that I think what the majority of churches teach and what scripture says differs.

AS an example, I do not see how you can say that resting in the Lord cancels the Lord telling us to keep the Sabbath Holy. If you rested in the Lord you would follow the Lord. If it is right to rest in the Lord, that is not the same as saying the Lord tells us not to keep the Sabbath Holy. You reasoning doesn't add up.
Click to expand...
Baptism symbolizes death and resurrection, and we follow Jesus into burial to have resurrection through Him. This is our rest because our miserable works of the flesh are finally laid off. This is The "taking up of our cross and following Jesus" (crucifying the flesh). Jesus was not about self gratification but did God's work, and we are expected to do the same 24/7. He increases His presence in your being, so ultimately it isn't you, but Jesus that works through you. You "ceased from your works like God did from His" (resting), Jesus now lives in that house. So because He is holy, you are also kept holy, He hallows the temple which is your body. "Be holy as I am holy", this can only be achieved through you no more living, men are contrary to God. But we are set apart as holy vessels for God's 24/7 use.

1 Peter 1:15-16
But as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. (...)
Hebrews 4:9-10
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

This tells us that the promised Sabbath rest intended for the people of God is something that is "entered". Are we still talking about a weekly ordinance?
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#50
Jun 30, 2015
25,404
13,746
113
#50
Blik said:
We know you don’t think the church has any errors, so be it.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to justify the rest of your post with a response until you justify your accusation with actual EVIDENCE.

I know you can't produce any; the most you will provide is more of your groundless opinions.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#52
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#52
CS1 said:
After the Sabbath (the seventh day) , at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.


Matthew 28:1
what is the the day that the Sabbath( the seventh day) on ? it starts on the going down of the sun on Friday ends on sundown on Saturday .

Mock 16:1-2

When the Sabbath (the seventh day) was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb


Luke 24:1-2

On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
Click to expand...
You are proving what I have said about it. They saw that Christ had risen but they did not see Him rise. What they saw were the material he was wrapped in.

Even if they had seen Christ rise, and it was the first day of the week that they saw this, how would that show that God changed what God had created?

I don't think this is a vital issue, what is vital is knowing Christ saves us from our sin. But it does show that you are not listening to the Lord as he is speaking to you in scripture.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#53
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#53
The Sabbath never produced righteousness. There is no one who would keep the Sabbath as it was prescribed in the OT. Now every believer should set apart some time to reflect upon and worship the Lord. god is please by what we do because of the dictates of our heart not actions driven by obligation.

Sunday is the day we meet for church. Some want to meet on Saturday and that is fine. The ones who forsake the assembling together are the ones who need encouragement.

Is it capricious to emulate the Jews by preaching law over grace? Those who prefer the whip of the law over the kindness of grace will receive what they seek.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#54
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#54
Dino246 said:
I'm not going to justify the rest of your post with a response until you justify your accusation with actual EVIDENCE.

I know you can't produce any; the most you will provide is more of your groundless opinions.
Click to expand...
Groundless? Opinions not scripture? Can you prove your accusations? I was hoping that you could point out scripture that I have missed so what I find about the church today would not be so. I am disappointed that you are so convinced of man made doctrines, so convinced the church is right in all their interpretations that you cannot even discuss them only deny.
 
R

Rondonmon

Senior Member
#55
May 13, 2016
1,304
183
63
#55
Blik said:
The church today says that the Sabbath was cancelled. As proof they tell of Mary’s discovery of the risen Christ on Sunday. It doesn’t make sense that the time of a discovery should change what God tells us He created on the seventh day, or that a time of discovering something establishes when it happened, but that is the way they think.
Click to expand...
We entered into God's REST 24/7/365, thus all days are the Sabbath.

Blik said:
The Lord gave us a new covenant, one we are told makes the old covenant obsolete. The church tells us that God knew he make a mistake so he cancelled the old covenant. I guess they think that God is like them and they know they make mistakes so they say so does the Lord. As if the Lord was just another human.
Click to expand...
The Lord affirmed his original Covenant was fast and true, he didn't change anything, except to the Jews who had but the Law which was given 430 years AFTER the real Abrahamic Covenant of Faith. All one has to do is read Galatians chapter 3 and this is clearly laid out. We are under the Covenant of Faith, and so was Israel, the Law was ADDED 430 Years later because is SIN.

NOW WATCH THIS:

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The above pretty much does away with any question as per to The Law.........the Law was our School Master until Jesus THE PROMISE came to take away our sins, now we have continual access unto the Heavenly Father through Jesus our Priest, thus every hour, second and day is a Holy Sanctified, Sabbath Day with us. Amen.

God didn't make any mistakes, those who placed the Law ABOVE the Promise did. The Original Covenant was the Promise. It was only new unto the Jews in that they forgot what the original promise was, thus they made the Law their God instead of God, hence when God came down in the flesh they couldn't even see Him, God in all His Glory, expressed in one Jesus Christ.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#56
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#56
Blain said:
You know Blik is actually correct in stating that the sabbath was not canceled but in now way was saying that everyone has to do it.
Click to expand...
The first day of the week in now the Christian Sabbath. The same principles and reasons apply.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#57
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#57
notuptome said:
The Sabbath never produced righteousness. There is no one who would keep the Sabbath as it was prescribed in the OT. Now every believer should set apart some time to reflect upon and worship the Lord. god is please by what we do because of the dictates of our heart not actions driven by obligation.

Sunday is the day we meet for church. Some want to meet on Saturday and that is fine. The ones who forsake the assembling together are the ones who need encouragement.

Is it capricious to emulate the Jews by preaching law over grace? Those who prefer the whip of the law over the kindness of grace will receive what they seek.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Click to expand...
Law over grace!!! When no one received grace based on the law. And no one accepts grace and still disregards the law. You need scripture 101. Or are you actually accusing me of telling people they may not have grace, only law? The gospels are pretty hard on those people and that accusation is harmful and mean.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#58
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#58
Rondonmon said:
We entered into God's REST 24/7/365, thus all days are the Sabbath.


The Lord affirmed his original Covenant was fast and true, he didn't change anything, except to the Jews who had but the Law which was given 430 years AFTER the real Abrahamic Covenant of Faith. All one has to do is read Galatians chapter 3 and this is clearly laid out. We are under the Covenant of Faith, and so was Israel, the Law was ADDED 430 Years later because is SIN.

NOW WATCH THIS:

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The above pretty much does away with any question as per to The Law.........the Law was our School Master until Jesus THE PROMISE came to take away our sins, now we have continual access unto the Heavenly Father through Jesus our Priest, thus every hour, second and day is a Holy Sanctified, Sabbath Day with us. Amen.

God didn't make any mistakes, those who placed the Law ABOVE the Promise did. The Original Covenant was the Promise. It was only new unto the Jews in that they forgot what the original promise was, thus they made the Law their God instead of God, hence when God came down in the flesh they couldn't even see Him, God in all His Glory, expressed in one Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Are you preaching to disregard the law because we have grace? Are you saying that if we go to Christ and give Him our sin for forgiveness, it does not lead us to want to obey Him? If accepting the grace Christ offers only leads to a disregard of anything else He tells us then the grace God gave separates us from Christ, not bring Christ into the heart.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#59
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#59
Blik said:
Law over grace!!! When no one received grace based on the law. And no one accepts grace and still disregards the law. You need scripture 101. Or are you actually accusing me of telling people they may not have grace, only law? The gospels are pretty hard on those people and that accusation is harmful and mean.
Click to expand...
Col 2:13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

How many Sabbaths must one keep to be in your good graces?

I'm concerned about the false asceticism in your theology.

Keep as many Sabbaths as you desire but do not place that burden on others. There is liberty not bondage in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#60
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#60
Rondonmon said:
We entered into God's REST 24/7/365, thus all days are the Sabbath.


The Lord affirmed his original Covenant was fast and true, he didn't change anything, except to the Jews who had but the Law which was given 430 years AFTER the real Abrahamic Covenant of Faith. All one has to do is read Galatians chapter 3 and this is clearly laid out. We are under the Covenant of Faith, and so was Israel, the Law was ADDED 430 Years later because is SIN.

NOW WATCH THIS:

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The above pretty much does away with any question as per to The Law.........the Law was our School Master until Jesus THE PROMISE came to take away our sins, now we have continual access unto the Heavenly Father through Jesus our Priest, thus every hour, second and day is a Holy Sanctified, Sabbath Day with us. Amen.

God didn't make any mistakes, those who placed the Law ABOVE the Promise did. The Original Covenant was the Promise. It was only new unto the Jews in that they forgot what the original promise was, thus they made the Law their God instead of God, hence when God came down in the flesh they couldn't even see Him, God in all His Glory, expressed in one Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Ron, you accept Christ as your savior so we are children of the Lord together, but you do need to study to clear up some of these things. I like so much "God didn't make any mistakes". I think if you could separate the eternal law from the laws given to the Jews to train them in the lord's ways you could see these scriptures clearly.

Paul didn't specify in his letters what law he was speaking of. History that we have of those times tell us and the people living in those days knew. But we lump all law together, and Paul didn't. There are so many statements Paul made about the need to keep the law best we can that it should be clear to any bible student that Paul was not against obeying the Lord, only against some of the Law of Moses like circumcision.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.