"Not by works" - false!

representative of nations, absolutely. fathers of nations, absolutely. but even nations are comprised of people -- you can't have an 'wicked nation' or a 'blessed nation' without the people of that nation being personally wicked or sharing in the blessing.

even if we read this as the 'twins' being nations, it takes the people of those nations to do good or bad things. if God elects a nation it must needs indicate that the people of that nation are under the effect of that election.

btw @Pulie you notice it says here that before they were even born and done anything, whether bad or good, God elected? that this election takes place before any work, in order that God's purpose of election might stand? this is defining a characteristic of God's election for us: that it is wholly His own doing and not based in any way on the works, will, desire or effort of man. IMO this passage all by itself logically destroys your version of the meaning of election.

well,



that's my point.

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you're quoting John 3:16 to me as tho it says something that it does not say.
you're operating under a premise that i can't find in the Bible:


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i don't think i believe anything by conscious choice.
i either do believe, or i don't believe.

i can become convinced of something that i did not previously believe - but @jaybo, if that's what happens, it takes an outside force acting on me, causing me to believe. it's not of myself.

i have free will. i can choose to act like i believe something that i really don't. i can choose to act like i don't believe something that i really do. i can keep on doing that for decades, and it can look really convincing. i can fool people; i can fool myself. but i don't make a conscious decision to believe anything.

try it.
go outside and see if you can decide to believe there's no sky.
don't worry; your will is free -- you can always decide to believe the sky exists again later.

that's not election; that's random happenstance.



suppose we revamped the government of this country and instead of holding votes, we just left the white house empty when a president's term was over, and said, whoever happens to walk by first in the next 5 minutes, he or she is automatically president.
is it legitimate to call that an "election" ??
of course not.
neither is what you're describing. you are describing people electing themselves and a god who tries to cover up his lack of sovereignty by lying about what happened after-the-fact.


people who don't have tickets are thrown off the train.
if salvation is the bus, brother, there's no way you can buy that ticket for yourself. it has to be given to you.


please read this carefully and try to understand it objectively:

what does it say?
does it say you get to choose who will be your own father?
if just anyone could hop on this bus, why does God say these people are unable to hear what He says?
does it say the reason they do not belong to God is that they choose not to hear?
or does it say the reason they cannot hear is that they do not belong to God?

The point I have been desirous of making is that God is drawing ALL to Himself through Jesus Christ.

Assumption: Discussion is about salvation only
Man does not have "free will" as you define it.
I have to assume your definition is "Man is capable to decide to believe or not.

Post 2362 gives 12th verses (I could give more) stating a person is not capable of believing via his 'free will' as you define it. It also shows that verses implying you can believe of your free will do not explicitly say you can. YOU MUST explain why my contention is wrong using the rule GOD NEVER CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. We can go from there (assuming my assumptions above are correct about you beliefs).

Aside for another time: I know you will go to John 3:16 ... From this you believe God loves everyone. A holy God cannot love evil. Holy means separated from evil. Psalm 5:5 says God hates the wicked every day ... many other verses about God's hate for evil people (Esau I hated). You must explain this seeming contradiction. Also, WORLD is ambiguous. Use a concordance for the word WORD and insert your definition (Everyone with exception) and you will see WORLD means different things in different verses. Our bias' usually determine the meaning that fits our theology. Hermenuetics 101 - use explicit verses to determine the meaning of implicit verses.

Hopefully @posthuman will take over the conversation ... lol .. he seems competent and I prefer to watch as it could take a while and chances are great that bias will rule. (Both sides have bias ... one side has more truth)

P.S. looks like Posthuman has taken up the challenge. Sweet

if God elects a nation it must needs indicate that the people of that nation are under the effect of that election. <- I am isolating this: since Israel was elected and chosen how could they have rejected God throughout history to this very day if God's grace is irresistible? BTW, I am not arguing against God's grace being irresistible Or even election for that matter The point I have been desirous of making is that God is drawing all to Himself through Jesus Christ.

Okay, I understand where you are coming from. Yes @posthuman is on another level. One cannot deny that Calvinists are intellectually provoking and well organized in their train of thought. Lol I scratch my head most of the time when conversing with Calvinists. I would have converted to it had I not been strongly opinionated.

Yes @posthuman is on another level.

Calvinism make all of us liars every time we seek to share the Gospel.

that's not election; that's random happenstance.



suppose we revamped the government of this country and instead of holding votes, we just left the white house empty when a president's term was over, and said, whoever happens to walk by first in the next 5 minutes, he or she is automatically president.
is it legitimate to call that an "election" ??
of course not.
neither is what you're describing. you are describing people electing themselves and a god who tries to cover up his lack of sovereignty by lying about what happened after-the-fact.


people who don't have tickets are thrown off the train.
if salvation is the bus, brother, there's no way you can buy that ticket for yourself. it has to be given to you.


please read this carefully and try to understand it objectively:

what does it say?
does it say you get to choose who will be your own father?
if just anyone could hop on this bus, why does God say these people are unable to hear what He says?
does it say the reason they do not belong to God is that they choose not to hear?
or does it say the reason they cannot hear is that they do not belong to God?

"Belief" is not a choice .. it a passive result of being persuaded, convicted.

If salvation comes by hearing then then that means some will be persuaded and some will not, it is the power of the message and the ability of the person to receive it at that point in time in their lives.

i don't think that's accurate to say.

if your comment is fair, then it's also fair, even more fair IMO, to call non-reformed believers liars when they pray for someone to be saved. they're asking God to supersede that person's sovereign free will, which they simultaneously say would be evil if God did so.

yes, yes, yes and yes. i would add that the ability of a person to receive the message is itself a gift of God.

that's not from me being taught by anyone. that's from me at a point in my life realizing my complete dependence on Him in every way. i had read of Nebuchadnezzar having even his mind taken and then given back to him by God, and the things Christ says in John 6, 8, 10 & 12, and the breadth of things that Solomon calls gifts from God in Ecclesiastes, and i looked at myself and my life and came to the conclusion. it was definitely not what my i had been taught in church, on the radio etc. it gave me both an absolutely humiliating sense of who i am before Him and an overwhelming peace to concede this; humility in that i understood how utterly helpless and lost i am without His hand, and peace in that i also love and trust Him completely, whatever His will for me is, i could only ask Him for grace to accept it.

It is not possible to tell a person that God loves them under the Reformed view and be honest.
Nor is it possible to state that Christ died for them and be honest.

If God is the one who alone makes the general call irresistible and thus effectual, what is preventing Him from granting everyone irresistible grace and thereby saving all?

much of what i believe is contrary to what i was taught & heard preached while growing up.

justice.

but this question is asked from the position of sitting in judgement over God, again.

He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and hardens whom He will harden.
i will not think to question Him.

if your comment is fair, then it's also fair, even more fair IMO, to call non-reformed believers liars when they pray for someone to be saved. they're asking God to supersede that person's sovereign free will, which they simultaneously say would be evil if God did so.