TRuth Vs. Beliefs: Would you Read a Book Whose Back Cover Said This:

I understand what you’re saying, but I think it doesn’t account for one thing. God. As a Christian, being theists (monotheists), we know that God gives us a basis for truth. Right? God is not a liar and He gives us a foundation. God is not silent and through His word has given us tenets of the faith. Certain truths that are necessary and binding.

At face value you may say this is circular reasoning, but what it does, is that you have now a defense from lies. Why would God give us the truth? For many reasons, but one reason is to reject lies.

Truth, as you know, is objective and by God’s providence in His word, has given you objective truth. Now you may say that it is faith to accept God’s word as truth, but that is a matter of knowing God, trusting God, and not only believing God, but realizing that God is more than a mere conceptual idea. He is real, and is someone that you can have fellowship with (i.e., know His voice).

Proclaiming to have absolute truth is not pride and arrogance, it is realizing that truth is not subjective. Consider the Law of Non-contradiction. It cannot be raining, and not raining at the same time, and at the same place in the same sense. It’s either raining or not raining. Likewise, there are many religions in the world, and truth being objective, either one is right or all are wrong.

Subscribing to truth isn’t narrow minded, it is essential. Being open minded, you want to be careful what you let in. Also, historically, the church has grown in revelation as God brought understanding to truths that were there from the beginning (justified by faith and the Protestant reformation comes to mind).

Is there really a view that doesn’t have presuppositions of some kind? All people have them, even atheists. They say there is no God, and therefore look at the world through the lens of no God, and therefore cannot completely justify morality (without an objective standard).

It’s a matter of what you believe.

Okay... I don't know that I have ever encountered a person who has such a goal. However, I have encountered many people who have become convinced that certain things are "the truth", and seek to convince others, even when their beliefs are demonstrably not truth.

If I wanted to prove that my beliefs were true, I would be in the uncomfortable space, at least temporarily, of believing something that I did not hold to be true.

The things that I hold to be true, I hold because the truth of them has been proven satisfactorily to me.

Ok, so whose certain truths are necessary and binding. The Roman Catholic church says their tenants are. The Mormons say theirs are, the Jehovah's witnesses their tenants. The question is, if we are all doing the exact same thing to hold fast to our beliefs as truth as every one of these groups, we are guaranteed to get to truth EXACTLY as they are. THerein lies the problem. Everyone gets exactly what they need to hold fast to anything they want to believe as truth, and everyone in their group agrees that their basic tenants are the unquestionably true ones that must be believed.

Everyone who believes there is a gospel believes that the gospel is simple. They all just believe different simple gospels. ANd they all use the exact same methodology that everyone who has unquestionably true core beliefs uses to hold fast to their beliefs and to allow them to reject every opposing belief.


One reason is to save, the other reason is to deliver just punishment for not doing what it takes to get to truth and believe it. i.e. loving your beliefs more than a love for the truth, and figuring out what it takes to get to it and doing it for the rest of your life.

Everyone gets what they want. If you love your beliefs, you get whatever you need to hold fast to them. If you truly love truth and dedicate your life to figuring out how to avoid believing lies as truth, and then how to get to the truth, and you do whatever it takes, you are guaranteed in His word to get to it before you die ... if you never stop. Those with infallible beliefs have stopped.

Every person on the planet has faith. Every person on the planet believes that their faith on all core beliefs is the correct one. They would even agree that the objective facts prove their conclusions valid and all opposing positions to be lies. What is believed only gets in the way until we learn what people do to hold fast to lies as truth and truth to be lies, and avoid that, And then figure out what we need to do differently to get to truth on top of that. Then, if we keep on consistently applying the one, while avoiding the other, God promises that we will get to truth before we die.

Every belief group agrees on certain things unless they are on drugs or something. Gravity, for instance. But we are not talking about the beliefs all normal sane people from every belief group on the planet holds to. We are talking about the differences not the similarity.

Again, that's one possible set of beliefs, and there are dozens that disagree. If we do the exact same things that every other belief group does to validate their beliefs, and call evil every opposing belief, then we get the same results. If the target is straight ahead, pointing out that others are missing the target while we shoot behind us doesn't make us right. Just wrong in a different direction. THat's the point. ALL belief groups use the exact same Methodology to hold fast to their beliefs and reject all others. If you do that you will be able to hold fast to your beliefs and reject all others as well. That's the nature of the method. You can hold fast to whatever you want "as" truth and reject whatever you want as lies with impunity and get absolute assurance that your beliefs are fact.

The goal is to avoid doing what every group can recognize all opposing belief groups do to hold fast to their beliefs as truth and reject what we believe is truth. Figure that one out and you have half the puzzle. If you do what they do you will get the exact same results, but with whatever beliefs you want to hold fast to. Step one. Avoid that Methodology. Step two figure out what you have to do differently if you really do want truth and not just hold fast to what you want to believe is truth, and keep on habitually doing that. I agree on the last part. It's a matter of what you believe. Either you believe your beliefs or you believe the truth. But as I said, every belief group knows their beliefs are truth and that they believe the truth on all issues that really matter better than everyone else.

All belief groups hold fast to the fact that before they can win converts, they must first get the potential convert to agree that there is a possibility that their current views might be "off" from the truth and/or that the beliefs they want them to adopt "might" be true. Better to have both. Once they convert to their beliefs, open-mindedness becomes a bad thing. No one should ever consider exchanging absolute truth(the groups beliefs) for a lie(anything else. That is contrary to every groups definition of faith.

Every person on the face of the planet agrees with you. "The things I hold true, I hold because the truth of them has been proven satisfactorily to them." That is EXACTLY what the methodology every belief group on the planet does. It proves their beliefs true over and over. It proves all opposing beliefs false over and over. All correct interpretations of all valid data always align fully with their beliefs ... If your goal is to hold fast to your beliefs as truth, every person on the planet can do so with whatever beliefs they want to accept and whatever beliefs they want to reject and have all the "facts" they need to support them. Look around. Every belief group on the planet has these things.

However, if you are happy with that, it works for me.

I came to faith from experience, supernatural intervention, evidence, and how the Biblical worldview best explains reality. All opposition I have found nothing that couldn't be answered. On top of the Spirits work around me gives me the eye witness evidence but the Bible itself has overwhelming circumstantial evidence, statistical evidence, forensic evidence, archeological or physical evidence, historical, or philosophical evidence. So I already did my search for truth and eventually, you just admit the Bible is true, Jesus existed, the Bible is accurate, and I can believe what Jesus said. Once that happens then you have the best foundation to build on. Or filter everything else through.

So... what do you believe, and why? It seems to me that you are dismissive of my position, but I suspect that you hold yours for exactly the same reasons.

I am glad you have what you need to believe as you do. No matter what the beliefs that works for me. Everyone has what they need to hold fast to their positions and if they are satisfied with that anything else is meaningless contention. God bless and good luck.

That's the first point. Those that love their beliefs prove their beliefs true and hold fast to them. My beliefs are ALL openhanded. In other words, I am open to altering every last one of them in the light of the fullness of the truth on the issue with every thing that "might" apply included and rightly divided making God, God's people and God's word 100% consistent ... nI dismiss no positions. Every person is entitled to believe whatever they want. It isn't dismissive. It's a fact. If any person considers any belief unquestionably true on this planet, then on that issue, they have closed their eyes and ears lest they see or hear anything that might contradict. They also respond like Mat. 7:6 instead of 7:7-12... present tense, ongoing continuous habitual action till you die. Note: In the parallel passage in Luke, it is only those who never stop that will receive the Holy Spirit.

I still see a flaw in what you’re presenting to discredit a belief system. A counterfeit does not dismiss the reality of the real. Just because a bunch of religions have holy books for example, doesn’t discredit the reality of the true religion that has a holy book from God.

Do you see what I am saying? If someone steals your identity, you do not cease to exist. So if God did give you a book filled with absolute truths, you have no need of looking elsewhere for truth. You already have it. This is like telling a man who has consumed a gallon of water, that you have something for him to drink. He is already full (and satiated) and has no need of your liquid.

You are willing to change your mind on anything you believe to be true, and you will go wherever the evidence leads you. That is what you’re saying. “This is what I currently believe to be true” essentially is your stance.

I guess we go back to one of the original questions I asked you. What is the difference between knowing the truth and believing the truth? A known truth cannot change. For example, Jesus is Lord. God is righteous. God cannot sin. These truths are known and cannot change. They are absolute.

What truths do you know? Or do you only live in the realm of what you currently believe to be true?

Obviously if there is such a thing as truth, belief in truth is possible. And if we continuously keep on doing what the word of God says we need to do to get to truth and avoid holding fast to what we want to believe as truth, then we are promised to get that before we die. We are also promised that if we do not love truth enough to keep on doing it, God also guarantees that we will receive a deluding influence to believe a lie. we all have the choice. If we do what everyone else does to hold fast to their beliefs as truth and dismiss all opposing beliefs as lies, we get the exact same results. An unshakeable, unquestionable faith in our beliefs.

As the theme from the x-files says, "The truth is out there." No one argues that, just what the truth is and isn't. Everyone who believes in the bible would agree with you. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, the Jews hold to more than half of the scriptures. The point is, no matter what the beliefs, or belief group, 95% or more are, as you say, "already full (and satiated) and have no need of my liquid". It is not those that are seeking truth. They have it. Just ask them, thus the responses listed in Mat. 7:6.

What I currently believe is true is just as prone to being absolutely false as the beliefs of anyone else on this planet ... including you. Not the point. The point is, if 97% or more of the people in the world who hold fast to what you believe to be absolute lies while believing something you hold to as lies to be absolute truth, doing the exact same things the exact same way, if we do the same, should we expect different results? As Einstein is reported to have said, "Insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over and expecting a different result." Every group does the same thing and gets unquestionably true results with every possible belief set under the sun. You getting the same result doing the exact same thing is not unusual, but rather the rule. If we want truth we must avoid that and do something different.

Do what everyone else does and you will get an unshakeable, unquestionable assurance that your beliefs are true and all opposing views false. If that is the goal, that's the Methodology you use, period. KNOWING truth is something everyone using that Methodology gets. THe biblical method says, no matter how many times your beliefs need to change, you change them, no matter how many times you need to restudy, reexamine, reevaluate you do. "Continuously keep on proving ALL things over and over again(Like a never ending court case) and never stop... and hold fast to what is good/true." Keep on continuously seeking, knocking, ... as a habit and way of life and never stop and you will find, have it opened for you, in the Luke parallel passage it says that if you never stop you will receive the Holy Spirit. The truth never changes. I agree. Those who have arrived and have stopped have closed their ears and their eyes lest they see or hear anything that contradicts their beliefs. In 2Th. 2: 10-15 they receive everything they need, including the signs and wonders listed at the end of Mat. 7, to hold fast to what they want to believe. Everyone gets exactly what they want from God.

If anyone is happy with their beliefs, and we keep talking with them in disobedience to Jesus command in Mat. 7:6 we are found to be fighting against the very work of God. the 2Th. 2:10-15 passage is the summary. It covers everyone. The word but at the start of 13 and the continuation of the topic from the perspective of those in the first century who did believe in the truth tells us that it is timeless, as accurate then as it is now. Rom. 1:18-32 covers the non-religious lost, and Rom. 10:1-3 covers those who go to scripture to justify their beliefs who do not accept Christ but believe they believe in the O.T. God of the bible. Mat. 7 covers the lost who believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior with all their heart, mind, soul and strength, and have the exact same signs, wonders and miracles that true Christians of the day had ... but Jesus never knew them. They believe a lie.

The problem isn't trusting in works to save, from this passage. The problem, from the context, is that they lack the true works of those who truly are saved. "Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

The fruits of the saved verses the fruits of the lost, or false prophets, are written in verses 1-11, with contrast between how the lost respond in verse 7:6 and those who never stop seeking, knocking ... in verses 7-11. In the parallel passage in Luke, it is those that are continuously responding like those in 7-11 that receive the Holy Spirit and thus won't here the words depart from me for I never knew you.

Funny how most of those who believe themselves to be Christians respond like Mat. 7:6 when their core beliefs are called into question ... the same responses the non-religious lost have when someone calls their unquestionably true beliefs into question. The people who believe they are but aren't miss the warning in verses 1-5 to make sure that they don't fall short of Jesus command to judge themselves first before looking at every other belief group on the planet.

I live in the realm of what I currently believe to be true. The realm where every belief is subject to examining and reexamining every possible fact that might pertain to the topic at hand. The realm where I know some of my beliefs are completely wrong, and it is my job to keep on doing whatever it takes to get to the truth no matter what belief(s) have to die. I love truth more than every belief, more than my life, more than all I own, more than my family, and enough to keep on continuously doing everything in my power to check and recheck and recheck all the while living in accordance with my beliefs as best as I can. Beliefs never saved a single person. Only belief in the truth saves.

After a while the infant should grow up.

Ephesians 4:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

Time to grow up.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

The spiritual gifts were given "until" (To the point of but no further) that which replaced them arrived.
Yep, the spiritual gifts were given for the equipping of the saints for the work of service for a period of time when there was no, or very little N.T. Word of God that fulfilled the same role. Unfortunately there was little unity in beliefs and actions in the early church. Read 1Co. Without the word, they saw dimly as through a beaten and polished piece of metal. But when the perfect(Neuter tense) came, it is like seeing face to face.

After a while the infant should grow up. As the word of God was being completed there are less and less signs and wonders, healings, ... to the point where Paul says God had to make an exception and heal a fellow worker for Christ that he loved dearly. Odd when early on in acts, just the shadow of apostles resulted in healing. By the later written books/letters, gifts have ceased altogether, and it is the Word of God that is there so that men can be fully equipped(Lacking nothing) for every good work. If you look at the purpose statement for gifts in this passage the word of Gods purpose is exactly the same as the purpose for gifts.

Do we have a unity of the faith? If you want to know something about Jesus and what He taught, no matter what beliefs you have, where do you go? Sure some people add some other books, others subtract a few, but 97% accept the same 66 books and letters that they use/hold fast to as scripture. Likewise, if you are looking for unity of knowledge about Christ, where is the only place a person can go? To the word of God.

Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. The scripture claims equality with Him. I am the way, the truth and the life, Father sanctify them with the truth, Thy word is truth, and even this passage:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

As a result of having the Word of God, and not having to rely on prophets, or people acting like prophets who didn't even have tat gift like we see in 1Co. 12, we are no longer to be children tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of doctrine as the people in 1co. were before there was much of the N.T. and they were relying on prophets, and others who acted like they had gifts they did not have for self glorification filling the early church with false doctrines.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
Eph 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Now that we have the completed word of God, and we have a unity of the faith(Everything needed is here) and of the knowledge of the Son of God(If you want to know anything about Him it is also here) to the measure which belongs to the fullness of Jesus Christ the word who was with God and is God and is the great high priest with whom we have to do, we should not be tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of doctrine, but rather keep on continuously proving all things over and over again, like an ongoing court case gathering every possible piece of information habitually being workmen approved by God and not ashamed because we are cutting absolutely everything that might pertain out straight, and then we are altering every single one of our beliefs to fit what is good/true and then altering our lives to fit. Those who do not will stand ashamed before Him one day.

Those who stop seeking, proving, examining diligently daily to see what really is true, cutting straight every possible fact available and putting everything that even "Might" pertain to the topic together with everything else, making sure that their conclusions make God consistent, the word of God consistent, and the actions, behaviors and words of His people where those are discussed in the bible consistent will stand ashamed before HIm one day.

True, those who hold fast to their beliefs, be they Mormon, Jehovah's WItnesses, Christian Scientists, non-denominational, Baptist ... fill in the all the belief groups that believe they are Christians, are not tossed to and fro with every wind and wave of doctrine. Indeed, they are hardened into their beliefs and their eyes and ears are firmly closed to even considering that what they KNOW is truth might be a lie, and that something they know is a lie might be truth. Indeed, they will die with their beliefs intact. Indeed, there is no reaching them with anything that can even touch their beliefs in their doctrines. Indeed, that's the way God designed it. Everyone gets what they want. Everyone knows that they, and those that believe like them, have and believe the truth and there is no serious consideration of anything else. What would any belief group seriously consider exchanging the unquestionable truth of their beliefs for what they already know is lies? None would. None will.

Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2Th 2:14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Discussing with those that love their beliefs is fighting against the work God is doing in them. Which is why we are commanded not to do so in Mat. 7:6.

Coming unto a knowledge of the gospel does not cause a person to be delivered eternally. Babes in Christ do not have a knowledge of the gospel, even though they have been born again, until they are taught the truths of the gospel. Isaiah 28:9, Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

I view Mat 7:6 in a different light than you do, according to the harmonizing of other scriptures. The "dogs" is representative of the natural man (1 Cor 2:14) who has not been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and cannot discern the things of the Spirit. The "swine" are also the natural man. It is useless to try to teach the things of the Spirit to someone that cannot discern them. That is why Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost SHEEP (babes in Christ) the knowledge of the gospel (Isaiah 28:9) who have the ability to discern spiritual things.

I would skim through it to see what it's about.

The way most people seem to approach the truth is through a bias. We are influenced by things like our unique life experiences, upbringing, demographics, culture, biology, etc. No two people have the same identical experiences that shape their world view. People end up with subconscious biases that lean the way they understand things toward a particular worldview.

This happens over a long timeline as people are experiencing new things and accumulating information. So the chance for someone's life circumstances to change increases over time and that's why people end up changing what they think is true.

In regards to Christianity, it is intentionally planned to not be an intuitive approach to finding God. In other words, someone who has never even heard of Christ is very unlikely to wake up and realize one day "Ah, I finally just realized that in order to have eternal life and forgiveness of my trespasses against God, I must believe in his one and only Son for salvation, who paid the price for my sins when he was sacrificed on the cross, died, resurrected three days later, then ascended to heaven."

People never die, raise from the dead three days later, or ascend to heaven in modern times. No one has ever witnessed that living today and Christians know that. It's faith, but if someone is capable of believing this in disregard of all known laws of nature, perhaps it is proof that the message of the cross is the power of God?

1 Corinthians 1:18-21
18For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

Yes, it appears that the context before and afterwards has absolutely no connection in your interpretation that I can see. The first five verses are a warning to be careful to judge yourself by the same standard before Jesus command to judge others in verse 6, and the opposite, contrasting responses in verse 7-11.

Casting pearls or what is holy would be doctrine, bible truth, what you value most about your faith, and the responses we are to judge based on are to what we are sharing. If they are responding like dogs and wish to tear you to pieces, they are angry with you for sharing them. Those that trample them under foot just aren't interested. They have their positions and are not even interested in considering anything else.

Starting in verse 7 we have a bunch of present tense statements and their results. Keep on continuously seeking as a habit and way of life and never stop and you will find, keep on continuously knocking and never stop ... the opposite of verse 6. These people seek, look, pursue truth ... and never stop. Verse 11 is a command to respond to others pearls and what is holy as we would want them to respond. In the sister passage to this one, it is only those that keep on habitually doing these things and never stop for the rest of their lives that get the Holy Spirit. Luke 11: 9-13

In Mathew it goes on to explain that the many are on the broad path that leads to destruction, the many that He is referring to are the same many described later on in this chapter "Many will say to Me Lord, Lord .... depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you" In between the two "Many"s" is a discussion about false prophets and knowing them by their fruits, the same fruits discussed in verse 6 of the same chapter. Again, with the contrast of verses 7-11 for the differences between the responses of the lost in 7:6, and with the confirmation of it being these that receive the Holy Spirit in Luke 11: 9-13

While I agree that those in 7:6 are lost, I can't see how to get to your beliefs from the context of the passage. Perhaps you can tie it all together for me?

Speaking of Isaiah 28:9, I have a question about the BlueLetterBible site, where it is showing the LXX on this verse... can someone tell me if this is perhaps a typo at that site [??], or something (I doubt that, but I have seen some typos at this site and/or at BibleHub before, so it just made me wonder... does anyone know...[?]),
...or perhaps some other explanation for what it shows in the first part of the verse (the very first phrase, and the particular word coming after "to whom shall he teach ____" [<--the word fitting in this blank, in the first phrase of the verse, as shown here at link (I hope it shows up right, at the LXX)]:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lxx/isa/28/9/ss1/s_707009

Anyone? = )

Ok,belief vs truth is part of the equation,not the all encompassing picture.

My belief need a base of truth.

But some truths are multifaceted.

Some are non negotiable.

Consider this.

The devil believes in Jesus.
He may possibly know the plan of salvation and agree with it.

But he will never be redeemed.

Commands and promises of God are "truths"

Those truths carry alongside conditions.

You stole my thunder