Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

but in 1 Cor 15 it says that all will be made alive but each in their own turn. Now if we are going to be resurrected each in their own order then those who are changed instead of resurrected are going to be changed in their own order as well.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Well there is some debate in the ressurection of those dead in christ and the event of the harpazo of us ascending to be honest the fact it speaks of the dead in christ has made me wonder if that also means our loved ones are not in heaven when they die but waiting for the ressurection but then again if say the dead in christ are actually the ones who stand for the gospel and are killed in the times of the tribulation that would make sense in away .

But ahwatukee in my opinion is one of the best at understanding bible prophecy so usually while not taken blindly I usually go to him for any insight on such matters, there are some things he and I disagree on but he is one of the few people I regard to be an expert. As far as us being changed in our own order it seems to me Paul is not speaking of the ressurrection of the saints pertaining to the end times but the ressurrection of going to heaven. We obtain spiritual bodies when we die and receiving him and in him recieving us into his fold if we are to be done so in our own order then that could simply mean when our appointed time to die

Those who are made alive each in their own turn is speaking about groups. Below is the scripture:

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the first-fruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

First of all, the scripture is speaking about those who have died and will be resurrected. Christ is the first-fruits of those who rise from the dead, then those at His coming, meaning all who have died in Christ. The living being changed and caught up is not even mentioned in that scripture, as Paul is specifically speaking about the resurrection of the dead.

But each in his own turn:

Christ the first fruits, then all of those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until then, will also rise. The first resurrection has phases or stages:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church at His appearing (the dead and the living at the same time)

* The male child/144,000 (changed and caught up)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

All of the above groups are apart of the first resurrection. The next group to be resurrected will be those of the church who have died in Christ. Within that same event, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them. The dead and the living will make up the entire church. Then during the middle of the seven years, the male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of Israel, will be changed and caught up to God and His throne. During that same time, the two witnesses who will have been killed by the beast from the Abyss, will resurrect after 3 1/2 days. Finally, after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the saints who died during the great tribulation will be resurrected, as revealed in Revelation 20:4-6.

Each in his own order = each group in their own order and not each individual believer at different times.

Why Do You both (Disregard) the (Last Day Resurrection) Seen In The Scripture Below, Why?

I have clearly looked at 1 Thess 4:14-17 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 below

These verses represent the second coming (Last Day) resurrection when (Death Is Swallowed Up) (Then Cometh The End)

It clearly shows the timing of the resurrection of the believer to be (Then Cometh The End) (Death is Swallowed Up In Victory)
(The Last Day) resurrection 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

1 Corinthians 15:22-26 & 52-54KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We see below the second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens and the resurrection of the believer in Jesus Christ.

God's word (CLEARLY TEACHES) that the resurrection takes place on the (LAST DAY) And yes this means (THE LAST DAY)

As Is Clearly Seen, Any Claim Of A (Pre-Trib) rapture is 100% false, This Is (THE LAST DAY)

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Well actually I didn't disregard anything I just explained the term twinkling of an eye and why it is used in that way. But as for your question it isn't that I can't see where your coming from but the ressurrection and the rapture are not always seen as the same event. The scriptures speak of the ressurrection but not just once, the first one speaks of the dead rising in christ first and then him gathering us in the clouds but there is another time it is spoken and that is when the blood of the fallen in christ cry out for justice.

There have been killings of believers but there will also be much more blood spilled during the tribulation where the faith of those in it will be tested and tried by fire more so than ever before. I have seen both the rapture and the tribulation in dreams and visions but I never got a real sense of the sequence of them. in all my dreams and visions of the rapture though I only knew in my spirit it was going to happen any second in the tribulation though there was mass mayhem and blood shed things not even horror movies can produce you would lose your lunch if you saw what I did and only in the two dreams of the tribulation was I not looking at in from a first person view but actually in it and even then I was sheltered.

I believe in a pretrib rapture but I also am not afraid to stand for what I believe in when the tribulation comes so either way it happens no matter whose view is right the thing I think is important is to prepare our hearts because trust me this stuff is coming fast and it is not going to be a oh look things are getting bad we better get ready kind of thing it is going to hit hard and it is going to hit without warning.

I don't accept it or reject it because I don't see as others do I do not keep myself to a set understanding of it I like to look at research and understand the bible in many different perspectives to see what I learn and find and why others see what they do. I could care less what the timing of the rapture is because my sole purpose in everyday life is to seek him and prepare my heart.

If he should choose to save me before hand then glory to God if he requires a warrior and a servent for the end times then I say to him I am here if I have die and be ressurected at the very end then my blood will cry out to him with all my heart and soul.

I don't think the debate of the timing of the rapture itself is near as important as preparing our hearts which is why even if I disagree with someone about the subject I don't tell them they are in speaking herasy because we all can have different understanding and views about the subject but what is in our hearts is what matters.

Look up every scripture on the Last Day and you will soon discover that it is more than a 24 hour day. Many events happen in the Last Day or Last Days, or Day of the Lord. The entire book of Revelation from chapter 4 on is the Day of the Lord, or the Lords Day.

You have been clearly shown the believers resurrection in 1 Cor 15:52-54 & 1 Thess 4:14-17, you have been clearly shown that the resurrection of the believer takes place on the "Last Day "John 6:40, 11:23-24

We will disagree.

We will disagree

The words (Last Day) below means exactly what it states, (Last Day) meaning there are no days to follow this, and is the fulfillment of Rev 10:6 (Time no Longer)

Revelation 10:6KJV
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

And that is fine because I have always enjoyed your posts. But even so I still think we need to prepare our hearts because something is coming something huge and whatever it is it feels urgent that we seek him more so than usually.

As I proved with 2 Thess 1
The Bible teaches that the church will be present on earth at the return IN GLORY of our Lord. Until his second coming.
You've just ignored that.

2 Thess 1 (NASB)
3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Rev 6
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


THey are told to rest for a while longer. They won't be resurrected in body until AFTER the GT when the rest of the saints can join them. The rest of the saints are ON THE EARTH.


1 Peter 4:12 (NASB)
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.


Daniel 7:21
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgement was made in favour of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

We can all share and delight in anticipation of his coming kingdom. His promise of return and restoration. It's exciting to think of King Jesus putting all things under his feet. The world isn't going to be right until that time.

Regarding this ressurrection/rapture timing issue, who is better prepared?

Someone who is expecting they must endure until his return but is surprised by an early removal from danger?
Or
Someone who is expecting to be removed early from danger but is surprised to find they must endure until his return?

I haven't ignored it. I've made long posts in the past covering this very thing, and of late am endeavoring to make short posts, coz ppl tend to only skim over longer ones, and I end up having to repeat myself anyway. But on to this post...

I've mentioned in past posts, that Paul, in these two chpts (1&2), is covering what consists of the entire spans of the tribulation period [all 7 yrs] rather than merely one point in time. So in my last post (about it) just took enough time to point out that verse 7 says, "ye who are troubled rest/repose with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven..." and pointed out the word "inflicting VENGEANCE on..." (where I related that to the "time period" issues).

In past post, I've pointed out how that wherever the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts [i.e. within close proximity of each other], they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and such is the case here in chpts 1 & 2, where Paul also uses both phrases (both referring to the SAME [future] TIME PERIOD), as Paul is contrasting the two opposite "beliefs" ppl who find themselves IN the trib will come to embrace: 2Th2:10-12 or 2Th1:10b (both of these, at the opposite ends of the bracketed section, refer to what ppl will come to believe IN/DURING the future trib yrs FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [when they are IN "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY"--the trib yrs aspect of it]). I'm not sure if this is technically called an inclusio, or other such technical term... whatever...

but Paul is covering the entire 7-yrs of the trib (and our rapture that will precede it) in these chpts. Not merely the END of the 7-yr period (Christ's "RETURN"). For another example, in this same vein, I've pointed out that the "who, who, who" of 2Th2 IS the "he, he, he" of Daniel 9:27a/b/c[26b] "FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs]" (that is, each passage refers to the BEGINNING, the MIDDLE, *AND* the END of those 7 yrs, not merely the END, and not merely the MID-to-END of it [3.5yrs], but the ENTIRE 7-yrs of it [besides what happens immediately preceding its commencement]):

--"whose COMING [/arrival/advent/presence/parousia]" (of the man of sin) - 2Th2:9a BEGINNING Dan9:27a[26b];
--"who opposeth... exalteth... sitteth... - 2Th2:4 MIDDLE Dan9:27b
--"whom the Lord shall consume... destroy...- 2Th2:8b END Dan9:27c

...all seven yrs (the DOTL "DARK" / "IN THE NIGHT" portion OF the very long earthly-located time-period known as "the DOTL" which Paul was telling them [starting in v.2 (v.15 on the other end)] not to be persuaded by anyone trying to convince them that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*"... it wasn't [tho certainly EASY and REASONABLE for them to be convinced was true, because of their PRESENT and ONGOING 'tribulations and persecutions' [1:4] they were ONGOINGLY ENDURING], and Paul tells WHY that is SO [that it isn't "PRESENT"]... ONE THING must happen FIRST, in order for it to "[BE] PRESENT" [tho two things would be in evidence, once it IS PRESENT]. I went into that in other posts, so won't go into it here).

The ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, Paul says is like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" that Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse--SAME "birth PANG" word used, but in the PLURAL when Jesus spoke of it, in the SINGULAR [coz it's the INITIAL one at the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period] when Paul points it out)], and "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" are parallel to the SEALS of Revelation 6, at the START of the future trib yrs, so that we now have more than THREE connecting passages telling of its ARRIVAL point in time (aka the START of the "7 yrs"), in Dan9:27a and in 2Th2:9a/8a, in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 and in 1Th5:2-3, and in Rev6:2 (one can make out the 7-yrs, from Rev5-6 to Rev19, but I'm not going to go into that in this post); and where each of these sections of Scripture (as I've laid out in past posts) has the BEGINNING, the MIDDLE, *AND the END of those same [future] seven yrs.


"The Church which is His body" has experienced "tribulations and persecutions" [2Th1:4] throughout its entire existence on the earth [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], it is not waiting for the future "7-yr period" to arrive in order to experience it.

There will indeed be "saints" IN/WITHIN the tribulation years (those who will have come to faith IN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" of us in the Rapture), and I've pointed out about 8-10 "BLESSED" passages that speak of "STILL-LIVING" persons ['saints'] who will ENTER the earthly MK age in their mortal bodies, upon His "RETURN" there, [who "SHALL NEVER DIE"--recall, Jesus will be present and reigning and He is powerful enough to sustain LIFE throughout the MK age ("death" will be much more rare, and reserved only for the rebellious--their children/grandchildren will not be "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS," for example)];

...so a couple of passages that parallel this Dan7 passage [see vv.25 for TIMING and v.27 "the greatness of the kingdom UNDER the whole heaven" (so, on the earth!)] are the TWO "RETURN" passages: Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal; and Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN" when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and to another likewise "be thou also over 5 cities" (cities are on the earth; and these are not "resurrected" ppl... but like the one/ones in Daniel 12:12 STILL-LIVING at that point-in-time, and "BLESSED" to ENTER the earthly MK age [Rev19:9 (distinct from v.7!) "BLESSED," and Rev16:15-16 "BLESSED," and Matt24:44-46 "BLESSED," and a number of others speaking to this same point in the chronology [not to mention, their parallels]).


There's much more I could say (and have said in past posts) but again, no one reads the long posts and only SKIMS them without examining the passages even supplied... so it's pretty much a waste of time to try to type out much of it here (this post is already beyond hope, for length, LOL)

Good day, Lucy!

Many people attempt to use the scripture you provided above to demonstrate that the church will remain on the earth and go through God's wrath up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Let's look closely to what it is saying:

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

Usually, expositors try to demonstrate that Jesus is going to give relief to those who are afflicted, which is going to take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven demonstrating that the church would have to be on the earth. And so they say, "Aha! I've got proof!" However, they, just as you did, did not pay attention to the fact that Paul also included himself and those other believers with him to be paid back and to be given relief to. If you will look at verse 7, it says, "and to give relief to you who are afflicted and [to us as well] when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven. Therefore, since we know that Paul and those with him have already died, he could not possibly be referring to himself and the others with him being alive in their mortal bodies when the Lord is revealed from heaven.

Taking in consideration the entire context then, regarding God repaying affliction to those who have afflicted them (believers), is that when Jesus is revealed from heaven, He will give relief (avenge) all believers for all that the wicked have done against believers in the church past, present and future.

It simply means that when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven to end the age, that He is going to pay back, i.e. exact revenge on all that the wicked have done against all believers throughout the entire church period. Surely you don't believe that Paul and those with him are still alive in their mortal bodies to experience the Lord's vengeance when He returns to the earth with His angels, do you?

Rev 6

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The scripture above is the opening of the 5th seal. These are those saints who will have been killed during the first half of the tribulation period. This group is not the church, but are those who will have died during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period, with their fellow servants and brothers being those great tribulation saints who will have been killed just as they were. You are not taking into consideration that there will be those who become believers on the earth after the church has been gathered, which is who the scripture is referring to.

1 Peter 4:12

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The 'testing' that Peter is referring to in the scripture above, is referring to the common trials and tribulation that all believers would suffer because of our faith in Christ and which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. The period when God's wrath is poured out is not the same as those trials and tribulations, but will be wrath directly from God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

Simply put, God is not going to test the church by pouring out His wrath upon them.

Not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have vs. God's coming wrath, is the problem. To be clear, when the apostles and first century church were being persecuted, it was not because of God's wrath, but the results of their faith in Christ. God's wrath is not for those who believe in His Son, but for those who have rejected Him and who continue living according to the sinful nature.

Once again, those referred to above that the horn (antichrist) makes war against, will be the great tribulation saints, also mentioned in Rev.13:7

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

These are not the church, but is referring to that group of white robed saints from every nation, tribe, people and language, who will be those who come out of the great tribulation, as revealed in Revelation 7:9-17

The church will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and that because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

Oh, and one more thing ^ ...

I've made past posts showing how the OT saints and the Trib saints (who DIE in the trib ^ ) will both be "resurrected" [definition: 'to stand again on the earth'] at the END of the trib, to be present FOR the earthly MK age [as ALL "saints" will be present for it], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER," aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS, [on the earth]" aka "the age [singular] to come" (etc), per Daniel 12:13, Job 19:25-27, Martha's words in John 11:24, and Jesus' words in Matt8:11 and parallel (re: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the G347 "shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]" passages), etc. ALL speaking of their ['resurrection' and] entrance into the earthly MK age, upon His RETURN to the earth Rev19 (i.e. at the END of the trib yrs).




[note again: the "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those "saved" "in this present age [singular]"), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]

Removal ‘From’ or Preservation ‘Through’ Tribulation? Error in prophetic truth can exact a serious toll in such things as vigilance, foresight, and the heart’s preparation for patient endurance. We have been advised to endure by Jesus, Daniel, Paul, John and Peter.

Jesus told us not to believe anyone saying "he has come" because everyone will see him.
He did not say "don't worry I will whisk you away when no one is looking years before I come back in glory"

One of the reasons Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters was because they had been taught that they had missed the resurrection/rapture and Paul writes to tell them that TRIBULATION is a sure sign that they had not missed it....

And yet more events are carried out after Rev 10:6. The interpretation is about the prophesies being fulfilled. All that God had prophesied before concerning these things was being completed. There would be no more delay. It was all being wrapped up.

That is not what Paul is conveying in verse 2.

He is conveying (basically), "don't let anyone convince you that THE DAY OF THE LORD [the earthly time-period consisting of JUDGMENTs] *IS PRESENT* [PERFECT indicative]" ...

IOW, the false letters or false messages were NOT expressing ANYTHING re: "Rapture" (that you MISSED IT), but that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT*". See the difference?

It is PAUL who is bringing in again to their minds the concept concerning "Rapture" (and how it "fits" time-wise IN RELATION TO that earthly time-period known as "the DOTL" [including JUDGMENTS unfolding] that they were being told "IS PRESENT"--or at least were at risk of believing those saying such--this was what was causing their distraught minds and their being shaken in spirit).

This is how the passage gets twisted exactly in reverse of what Paul is actually conveying here.

The "false conveyors" were NOT telling them ANYTHING about "Rapture" (that you've MISSED it), but that "the DOTL [earthly time period] *IS PRESENT*" (unfolding in their experience--that they were IN it and experiencing it).

^ Paul is telling them WHY that is NOT SO [enter: Rapture doctrine (that PAUL is bringing to their minds again, vv.3,15 and others in this 2nd epistle)]



[timed-out before my other EDITS could be accomplished... plz overlook some of my typing-in-haste issues, in previous post, lol]

Also, They may have been thinking that their loved ones who had died would miss the glorification that was promised to those that were alive when He comes and Paul is explaining to them the their loved ones will rise first. We will not go before them. This seems to be an emphatic point and probably an answer to their concerns that we do not have a record of.

I'm going by what the actual text STATES [was the issue] in 2Th2:2... but which some INcorrectly mis-interpret to be saying instead:

--"[don't let anyone convince you] that the RAPTURE has happened"
--"[don't let anyone convince you] that JESUS HIMSELF is present"
--"[don't let anyone convince you] that Jesus' KINGDOM has commenced"

[etc...]

NONE of those ^ is what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying in v.2.



Instead, what v.2 IS conveying is:

--"[don't let anyone convince you] that THE DAY OF THE LORD [the earthly time-period involving JUDGMENTS unfolding] IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]".

It wasn't.

And Paul was telling them WHY this was NOT SO.

[enter the SEQUENCE (repeated 3x in this text), as to how "our Rapture" (he is bringing again to their minds) FITS time-wise IN RELATION TO that earthly time-period of JUDGMENTS UNFOLDING upon the earth (i.e. the 7 trib yrs/'the DOTL' [the 'DARK'/'IN THE NIGHT' portion OF it])]