The Role of Women in Ministry & Life
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Your profile says you are non-Christian. If you do not accept the authority of Scripture than your own human logic is your truth. Why, as a non-Christian man would you even care to discuss whether or not women should pastor or preach in Church? Your opinions are irrelevant. That’s my point exactly. We are not saved by following our logic, which is independant and fallible. We are saved by following our Lord. We are a Body, many members united as One under His authority. The pieces on a chess board don’t contemplate if the Grand Master has made a mistake by sacrificing a rook for a pawn. We can’t see the board. We only accept where He puts us, be it to conquer or die.
R
I find this topic interesting 
In the Scandinavian /Nordic countries, where I am from, we have had several female political ministers and other leaders that I see are performing just as well as men.
So, what is the practical reason (not the historical about Adam not being deceived) from a Christian perspective, why women can't lead men?
In the Scandinavian /Nordic countries, where I am from, we have had several female political ministers and other leaders that I see are performing just as well as men.
So, what is the practical reason (not the historical about Adam not being deceived) from a Christian perspective, why women can't lead men?
I think you just gave a rational explanation for the rule
I hope you will walk in peace
I hope you will walk in peace
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Howdy maryjohanna and welcome to the forum.
First, this is a topic often debated in many groups of Christians, both online and offline. You will not get a new clear answer here. You may get some answers, but people will contradict each other and you've heard all the arguments for both sides before.
Second... well, there is no second. I'm not going to get on this carousel again.
First, this is a topic often debated in many groups of Christians, both online and offline. You will not get a new clear answer here. You may get some answers, but people will contradict each other and you've heard all the arguments for both sides before.
Second... well, there is no second. I'm not going to get on this carousel again.
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"Most likely" for me means, it's something I'm not sure of.
If that wasn't what you meant, then it seems like I have misunderstood your message because of differences in our language
If that wasn't what you meant, then it seems like I have misunderstood your message because of differences in our language
S
Thanks for the topic. I think I can help. The reason that it "sits strangely with you" is because you are hearing bad hermeneutics and eisegesis when these scriptures are used to ban women from preaching.
I will only attempt this once. If the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that inspired the scriptures inspires your understanding then good, if not then I rest my case here in this one attempt.
1) It was always God's plan to pour out His Spirit on all flesh and empower women and men both for the purpose of ministry and proclamation of the word of God under the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit with signs following.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
This outpouring he is speaking about was not salvation, the 120 in the upper room were already saved by faith in Christ. This was for the purpose of making them witnesses, to go and preach to all nations.
In that context he emphasizes that he puts no difference between male and female in this empowering gifts for ministry with an emphasis on the vocal gifts to make his point, tongues and prophesying.
2) To understand what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 14 about women being silent in the church read the context. Three times he tells people to be silent in the church. Those speaking in tongues without an interpreter, those prophesying and needing to give someone else a turn, and the women asking questions out of order. The context was that it was shameful to be out of order and disruptive to the public meeting with their questions not a general ban on women preaching.
3) To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3.
1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter is quoting Paul
1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation (notice all of the passages you posted also agree) we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)
We are dealing with centuries of bad hermeneutics on this subject. There is no text that says a woman cannot preach the word of God. God is still pouring out His Spirit on women to prophesy and to preach. This is God's intention. Do not let bad hermeneutics keep you from obeying God's call to prophesy, preach, teach and spread the gospel in any way God wants to use you whatsoever.
It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry (as you will often hear people state) when he said that a women should not teach, or usurp authority over a man. Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known. We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.
Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions.
The reason it does not sit well with you is because it is bad hermeneutics and not the heart of God. It would be like the Pharisees saying you cannot heal on the sabbath, come back another day because they thought they had the scripture interpreted correctly but they did not. To say that God does not want women to preach does not sit well with you because it is not in line with the revealed heart and intention of God that he wants to pour his Spirit on women too. As a matter of fact it the women involved in ministry in the church surprised those that spoke about the Christians in the first century. They noticed the liberty of the women which was different than both Judaism or Gentiles were used to seeing. Search for yourself and try and find the passage that says a woman cannot preach the word in church buildings or when a man is present. It is not there. It has been inserted by people for so long they have everyone convinced that the bible says that and it does not. Now they might be convinced that the phrase "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." means that a woman cannot preach the bible or preach in a church or preach when a man is in the room, or a myriad of other interpretations but as you can see with your own eyes the text says none of those things.
The leaven of the Pharisees keeps people in bondage to FEAR of violating some RULE here based on bad hermeneutics. Fortunately those women who are called to preach and teach are doing so and multitudes are being saved and translated into the kingdom of light and God is pleased and they will be rewarded. It is easy to see the error in interpretations when you hear someone say these women are sinning and that God is not pleased. Leaven of Pharisees. Beware of it.
I will only attempt this once. If the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that inspired the scriptures inspires your understanding then good, if not then I rest my case here in this one attempt.
1) It was always God's plan to pour out His Spirit on all flesh and empower women and men both for the purpose of ministry and proclamation of the word of God under the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit with signs following.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
This outpouring he is speaking about was not salvation, the 120 in the upper room were already saved by faith in Christ. This was for the purpose of making them witnesses, to go and preach to all nations.
In that context he emphasizes that he puts no difference between male and female in this empowering gifts for ministry with an emphasis on the vocal gifts to make his point, tongues and prophesying.
2) To understand what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 14 about women being silent in the church read the context. Three times he tells people to be silent in the church. Those speaking in tongues without an interpreter, those prophesying and needing to give someone else a turn, and the women asking questions out of order. The context was that it was shameful to be out of order and disruptive to the public meeting with their questions not a general ban on women preaching.
3) To interpret 2 Tim 2 it is very helpful to read 1 Pet 3.
1 Peter 3:1-6 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
Now compare with 2 Tim 2 and notice the strikingly similar wording. As if Peter is quoting Paul
1 Tim 2:9-12 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I believe that using the rule of theological context in interpretation (notice all of the passages you posted also agree) we have a strong case to say that Paul was talking about the same thing that Peter was talking about especially when Paul does mention the Adam and Eve scenarios confirming that this is about a wife toward her husband. It has nothing to do with banning women from preaching. That is eisegesis, (reading into the text what is not there) rather than exegesis (understanding the authors intended meaning)
We are dealing with centuries of bad hermeneutics on this subject. There is no text that says a woman cannot preach the word of God. God is still pouring out His Spirit on women to prophesy and to preach. This is God's intention. Do not let bad hermeneutics keep you from obeying God's call to prophesy, preach, teach and spread the gospel in any way God wants to use you whatsoever.
It is IMPOSSIBLE that Paul's authorial intent was to ban women from PULPIT ministry (as you will often hear people state) when he said that a women should not teach, or usurp authority over a man. Because the PULPIT had not been invented yet. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for his readers to have had that concept either. eisegesis has caused people to put words in Paul's mouth and ideas in his head that he did not write and could not have known. We have no authority to apply modern church assembly concepts to what was happening at the church of Ephesus at the time of Paul.
Peter was more verbose but it is obvious they were talking about the same things. The wife toward the husband, the attitude of the woman toward the man (Paul's use of Adam and Even confirm that he was talking about that relationship not pulpit preaching) It is not godly for the woman to Correct/Teach, or rule over the man and especially in public is it shameful to see that happen. It is embarrassing to the man for the woman to Teach/correct/scold him. She should be respectful, give him honor, hold her peace, if she is really concerned about something, ask him at home not in public, causing contention, and making a scene as it were. Especially in the church if there are other believers around who might side with her opinion over the husbands and cause divisions.
The reason it does not sit well with you is because it is bad hermeneutics and not the heart of God. It would be like the Pharisees saying you cannot heal on the sabbath, come back another day because they thought they had the scripture interpreted correctly but they did not. To say that God does not want women to preach does not sit well with you because it is not in line with the revealed heart and intention of God that he wants to pour his Spirit on women too. As a matter of fact it the women involved in ministry in the church surprised those that spoke about the Christians in the first century. They noticed the liberty of the women which was different than both Judaism or Gentiles were used to seeing. Search for yourself and try and find the passage that says a woman cannot preach the word in church buildings or when a man is present. It is not there. It has been inserted by people for so long they have everyone convinced that the bible says that and it does not. Now they might be convinced that the phrase "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." means that a woman cannot preach the bible or preach in a church or preach when a man is in the room, or a myriad of other interpretations but as you can see with your own eyes the text says none of those things.
The leaven of the Pharisees keeps people in bondage to FEAR of violating some RULE here based on bad hermeneutics. Fortunately those women who are called to preach and teach are doing so and multitudes are being saved and translated into the kingdom of light and God is pleased and they will be rewarded. It is easy to see the error in interpretations when you hear someone say these women are sinning and that God is not pleased. Leaven of Pharisees. Beware of it.
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S
Thank you for sharing this. It has given me a better understanding