Attacks on the Rapture: a popular pastime among some Christians

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cv5

cv5

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#181
Nov 20, 2018
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#181
Ahwatukee said:
The tribulation (last seven years) is all God's wrath. It is also known as "the Day of the Lord," which is a day of darkness, wrath and fierce anger. Scripture states that after Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth, he is angry. This does not mean that this time period is the wrath of Satan. He just happens to get angry during the time of God's wrath. The reference to Satan knowing that his 'time is short' is referring to the fact that, he and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the seven years and so he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years left before Jesus returns and he is thrown into the Abyss. Everything that happens during the entire seven years is God's wrath, regardless of what Satan or anyone else does. It is God's specified time of wrath. People made up the "Satan's wrath" thing so that they could use it to support their belief that the church will go through God's wrath. It's all a lie! Satan started it and gave these false teachings to a few and then just sat back and watched it spread like a virus.



Heard this and have contended against it many times before. What you and others are not taking into consideration is that, the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have would come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. The coming wrath of God is completely different from this, as it will be wrath coming directly from God. To be clear, though apostles and first century church suffered persecution and death, this was not from the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God, will be unprecedented events unequaled from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again.



This is incorrect! The reference to "unless those days were shortened no one would be left alive, is in reference to all of the inhabitants of the earth. In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the prescribed time, no one would be left alive.

[quoteThe great tribulation is the devil's wrath because the devil is literally on the earth and knows his time is short, according to Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, l rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, forthe devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”
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I already gave you the answer to Satan's time being short and that he just angry from being cast out. It does not mean that it is the time of his wrath. All of the events that take place will be the results of God's wrath, even the things that Satan, the beast and the false prophet do. But it is during God's wrath in which they will perform their acts.



The great white throne judgment will be God's judgement for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments come first and will be carried out during that seven year period which is the wrath of God. Below is one example of where the bowl judgments are referred to God's wrath:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

In the scripture above, the bowl judgments are said to be the last seven plagues, because with them, God's wrath is completed. Since these seven bowls are last, then other wrath would have had to come before them. If you say, "I was last in line in the grocery store" it means that there were other people in front of you. It is the same here. Since the bowl judgments are last, then other judgments of wrath will have had to come before them, namely, the seals and the trumpets.

The wrath of God has been prophesied by the prophets of old as the Day of the Lord and must be fulfilled and that prior to the great white throne. The book of Revelation is a detailed account of the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, because Jesus was already held accountable for the wrath due for every believer. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon us.[/QUOTE]
Nope. No wrath for the Church thats for sure.
 
T

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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#182
Ahwatukee said:
But a mid or post tribulation gathering does pose a problem.

The first seal being opened initiates God's wrath. Since Jesus satisfied God's wrath on behalf of all believers, then we cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which means that the Lord will gather His church prior to the on-set of His wrath. That said, the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened. To be even clearer, you cannot have the church gathered mid-trib, because it would mean that the church would go through 3 1/2 years of God's wrath. And if you make it post trib, that would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which we are not appointed to suffer.



It is a simple matter of taking into consideration all scriptures pertaining to end--time events. Just remember this, the church cannot go through any of God's wrath, because Jesus already satisfied it.



First of all, the bride is not saved by her works. But she will receive rewards for her righteous acts. It is very important to understand this. For elsewhere scripture states that we are saved by grace through faith and this not by our own efforts. It is the gift of God, not by works. IF salvation was earned by our works, then it is not longer a gift. So the fine linen, white and clean that the bride receives, is for our righteous acts which are the result of our faith.

We are saved by grace through faith. We perform good works, not for salvation, but to glorify God. Salvation has already been secured by what Jesus did and not by what we do.
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The sealed believers are protected during the tribulation, as the verses below clearly show

"Only those without the seal of God" will be tormented, al Christians are sealed Eph 1:13, 4:30

Revelation 9:3-4KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#183
#183
Runningman said:
I think the great tribulation isn't God's wrath. I think it is the devil's wrath because his time is short.

You are correct in saying that Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, that is absolutely Biblical. God's wrath will be exacted in an event called the Great White Throne Judgement, but only for those not found in the book of life.
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Looking at the following scriptures we have about 12 or more clear declarations that the judgments during the Great Tribulation are the Wrath of God.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Zeph 1: 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:10
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:19
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 15:1 1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 
T

Truth7t7

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#184
Scribe said:
Looking at the following scriptures we have about 12 or more clear declarations that the judgments during the Great Tribulation are the Wrath of God.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Zeph 1: 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14:10
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:19
19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 15:1 1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev 16 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
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The two witnesses seen in Revelation chapter 11 will bring the plagues seen in Rev 16 upon the Beast and his kingdom, the sealed Church upon earth is protected, sorta like a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

Revelation 16:1-2KJV
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
 
S

Scribe

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#185
Truth7t7 said:
The two witnesses seen in Revelation chapter 11 will bring the plagues seen in Rev 16 upon the Beast and his kingdom, the sealed Church upon earth is protected, sorta like a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt.

Revelation 16:1-2KJV
16 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
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OK so we can agree that it is indeed the wrath of God. The saints are protected from this wrath of God. So would you say that when the hail stones fall that kill many people, there are saints that are divinely protected? The sun burning people so badly that they curse God, the saints are under the same sun but don't burn?
We do have this scripture that supports protection of the saints from judgments meant for the wicked in Revelation 7.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

but they turn out to be Jews from every tribe. So we cannot use that verse as the one to support saints being protected from the wrath during the outpouring of the wrath of God. We can only use it to support God protecting Jews from the wrath being poured out.

If we appeal to the story of the Hebrews under the plagues of Egypt we have a clear declaration in the text that God made a difference between them and the Egyptians and that was to the glory of God. Therefore if it is true that God is divinely protecting the saints from the plagues in Revelation there would be a statement saying that to the glory of God. And it does appear to be found in Rev 7:2-3 but these are Hebrews once again.

Unless we are going to spiritualize the 144K Jews as all those who are believers in Christ.

I am not trying to teach something I am simply asking the question. What scriptures in Revelation back up the idea that the saints will go through the out pouring of Gods wrath on the wicked but not feel it?
 
T

Truth7t7

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#186
Scribe said:
OK so we can agree that it is indeed the wrath of God. The saints are protected from this wrath of God. So would you say that when the hail stones fall that kill many people, there are saints that are divinely protected? The sun burning people so badly that they curse God, the saints are under the same sun but don't burn?
We do have this scripture that supports protection of the saints from judgments meant for the wicked in Revelation 7.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

but they turn out to be Jews from every tribe. So we cannot use that verse as the one to support saints being protected from the wrath during the outpouring of the wrath of God. We can only use it to support God protecting Jews from the wrath being poured out.

If we appeal to the story of the Hebrews under the plagues of Egypt we have a clear declaration in the text that God made a difference between them and the Egyptians and that was to the glory of God. Therefore if it is true that God is divinely protecting the saints from the plagues in Revelation there would be a statement saying that to the glory of God. And it does appear to be found in Rev 7:2-3 but these are Hebrews once again.

Unless we are going to spiritualize the 144K Jews as all those who are believers in Christ.

I am not trying to teach something I am simply asking the question. What scriptures in Revelation back up the idea that the saints will go through the out pouring of Gods wrath on the wicked but not feel it?
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As I stated, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, you have seen in Revelation 16:1-2 the noisome sore falls upon those that have the mark and worship the Beast.

Now your concerned about hail and sun?

What does Isaiah below show you?

Just like the Passover in Egypt, the Church is protected, give into truth!

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#187
#187
Truth7t7 said:
As I stated, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, you have seen in Revelation 16:1-2 the noisome sore falls upon those that have the mark and worship the Beast.

Now your concerned about hail and sun?

What does Isaiah below show you?

Just like the Passover in Egypt, the Church is protected, give into truth!

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
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That same scripture is used by the pre tribulation believers to support the rapture.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#188
Runningman said:
I think the great tribulation isn't God's wrath. I think it is the devil's wrath because his time is short.

The great tribulation will be characterized by great loss of human life and persecution. Jesus says this about the tribulation in Matthew 24:22 "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."

And this isn't God exacting wrath on the earth. This verse above actually gives a hint that God's elect will be present for the great tribulation and for them it will be cut short.

The great tribulation is the devil's wrath because the devil is literally on the earth and knows his time is short, according to Revelation 12:12 "Therefore, rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, l rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea, forthe devil has come down to you in great anger, knowing that he has little time.”

So that isn't a reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture, in my honest opinion. In fact, Jesus very blatantly says that in the world we will have tribulation as a foregone conclusion in Matthew 16:33 "have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

You are correct in saying that Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, that is absolutely Biblical. God's wrath will be exacted in an event called the Great White Throne Judgement, but only for those not found in the book of life.
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There are 11 references to God's wrath, one reference to the wrath of the Lamb, and one ref of Satan's wrath.

Believe it....its definitely Gods wrath.
 
Yahshua

Yahshua

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Sep 22, 2013
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#189
I believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath "gathering" (as I understand the word "rapture" to mean). I am also a historicist, believing the Almighty has continued His plan, step-by-step since the Messiah ascended to heaven.

---

The Messiah told John that everything he was seeing was a mix of "what has been" (from John's pov), "what is" (as of John's time), and "what will be" (from John's pov). So when we read Revelation we're also seeing the same thing: "what has been" (but from OUR pov), "what is" (as of OUR time), and "what will be" (from OUR pov). It's a full timeline starting at a point before John was actually given his visions....just like the timeline Daniel was given had started before he was given it (with Babylon and Persia already existing).

And just like Daniel, the timeline of John's vision would be given symbolically (i.e. "sign-ified") and from multiple perspectives, each vision giving different details of the same timeline...just like with Daniel.

In other words, if Daniel saw a winged-lion and four-headed leopard, we're supposed to understand the actual kingdoms of Babylon and Greece that those symbols/signs represented (since of course, we don't actually have flying lions or four-headed leopards running around).

When the Messiah ascended to heaven in Acts 1 he took the scroll from He who is on the throne that very moment and sat down at the right hand to open the seals. How can we be sure of this? Because in Revelation 4 a great angel asks all, "who here is worthy to take the scroll and open the book?" And no one in heaven was worthy (spirits)...but we know the Messiah is there NOW.

...no one on earth was worthy (living)...

...and no one under the earth (dead) is worthy...

No one ANYWHERE was worthy UNTIL The Lamb appeared in heaven as if slain. And we are then told He "triumphed/prevailed" to open the scroll. This was The Messiah's ascension and enthronement event, which happened 40 days before the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, long before John was given the visions of Revelation as an old man. This is "what has been" from John's pov.


We're then given a play-by-play of exactly what was happening as soon as the Messiah took the scroll and began reigning in heaven by opening the seals, while the apostles were on earth performing their "acts":

- 1st Seal = 1st horseman (conquer)
The Deception Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Paul, Peter, Jude, and James began writing about people who were creeping in who weren't really part of the faith, preaching heresies, while the apostles encouraged believers to contend for the original faith given to them. Deception would grow and false faiths would continue to spread across the world.

- 2nd Seal = 2nd horseman (remove peace)
Wars & Rumors of Wars Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Confrontations escalated between Judea and Rome. Tensions rose to spark several battles until Jerusalem's eventual destruction. Conflicts would grow and wars would continue to spread across the world. There have been countless battles and significant blood spilled since the Messiah's ascension and continues today.

- 3rd Seal = 3rd horseman (scales/balances)
Famines Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Poverty would grow and spread as greed and the lust of wealth grew to create caste systems of "wealthy and the impoverished" on a worldwide scale; the start of medieval/feudal times and continuing through to today's corporate billionaires vs working class.

- 4th Seal = 4th horseman (death)
Pestilence Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Deadly diseases would begin to manifest and spread, continuing until even today (covid19).

- 5th Seal = Souls slain for their testimony
Messiah foretold of his disciples being delivered up to be killed for their testimony (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Many were beheaded just like prophecy says they would be. This persecution began during the acts of the apostles and continued until only one apostle was left. This is also "what has been" from John's pov as he's seeing these events play out in Revelation 5.

- 6th Seal = Heavenly signs, earthquake (Wrath of the lamb)
Messiah foretold that the time of Great Tribulation on the JEWS would begin with the abomination of desolation // surrounding the city by armies (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Historians testify to great heavenly events occurring over the temple just before the siege on Jerusalem in 70AD. Other testimony from Roman generals said there was no earthly way the army was getting through Jerusalem's walls. THIS was the beginning of judgment on the people for rejecting the Messiah in fulfillment of all the OT scriptures that spoke of Jacob's trouble, Israel's calamity, the people's scattering. This is "what has been" and "what is" as of John's time.

- The 7th Seal, trumpets, and bowls/vials were all after John's time ("what will be" from John's pov), while the 7th seal and first 6 trumpets were before we were even born.

- But the last trumpet and bowls/vials are still future as of today.

----

This is already too long so I'll stop here...but Revelation 12 repeats the timeline from earth's perspective.

So the Great Tribulation (i.e. Lamb's Wrath) began in 70 AD and has continued for the Jews throughout the middle ages through to today, while the gentiles have reaped the benefits of the Messiah and opportunities to receive His Salvation and blessings during their "time" (i.e. the time of the gentiles). This is why the Messiah says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the sign of the son of man will be seen, the world will mourn, and then He will gather his elect from the four corners (which is where they were scattered to during their Great Tribulation).

The gathering is the "rapture" event.

After the gathering, The Almighty's wrath (bowls/vials) will be poured out upon the nations that didn't accept the Messiah.
 
T

Truth7t7

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#190
May 19, 2020
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#190
Yahshua said:
I believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath "gathering" (as I understand the word "rapture" to mean). I am also a historicist, believing the Almighty has continued His plan, step-by-step since the Messiah ascended to heaven.

---

The Messiah told John that everything he was seeing was a mix of "what has been" (from John's pov), "what is" (as of John's time), and "what will be" (from John's pov). So when we read Revelation we're also seeing the same thing: "what has been" (but from OUR pov), "what is" (as of OUR time), and "what will be" (from OUR pov). It's a full timeline starting at a point before John was actually given his visions....just like the timeline Daniel was given had started before he was given it (with Babylon and Persia already existing).

And just like Daniel, the timeline of John's vision would be given symbolically (i.e. "sign-ified") and from multiple perspectives, each vision giving different details of the same timeline...just like with Daniel.

In other words, if Daniel saw a winged-lion and four-headed leopard, we're supposed to understand the actual kingdoms of Babylon and Greece that those symbols/signs represented (since of course, we don't actually have flying lions or four-headed leopards running around).

When the Messiah ascended to heaven in Acts 1 he took the scroll from He who is on the throne that very moment and sat down at the right hand to open the seals. How can we be sure of this? Because in Revelation 4 a great angel asks all, "who here is worthy to take the scroll and open the book?" And no one in heaven was worthy (spirits)...but we know the Messiah is there NOW.

...no one on earth was worthy (living)...

...and no one under the earth (dead) is worthy...

No one ANYWHERE was worthy UNTIL The Lamb appeared in heaven as if slain. And we are then told He "triumphed/prevailed" to open the scroll. This was The Messiah's ascension and enthronement event, which happened 40 days before the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, long before John was given the visions of Revelation as an old man. This is "what has been" from John's pov.


We're then given a play-by-play of exactly what was happening as soon as the Messiah took the scroll and began reigning in heaven by opening the seals, while the apostles were on earth performing their "acts":

- 1st Seal = 1st horseman (conquer)
The Deception Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Paul, Peter, Jude, and James began writing about people who were creeping in who weren't really part of the faith, preaching heresies, while the apostles encouraged believers to contend for the original faith given to them. Deception would grow and false faiths would continue to spread across the world.

- 2nd Seal = 2nd horseman (remove peace)
Wars & Rumors of Wars Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Confrontations escalated between Judea and Rome. Tensions rose to spark several battles until Jerusalem's eventual destruction. Conflicts would grow and wars would continue to spread across the world. There have been countless battles and significant blood spilled since the Messiah's ascension and continues today.

- 3rd Seal = 3rd horseman (scales/balances)
Famines Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Poverty would grow and spread as greed and the lust of wealth grew to create caste systems of "wealthy and the impoverished" on a worldwide scale; the start of medieval/feudal times and continuing through to today's corporate billionaires vs working class.

- 4th Seal = 4th horseman (death)
Pestilence Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Deadly diseases would begin to manifest and spread, continuing until even today (covid19).

- 5th Seal = Souls slain for their testimony
Messiah foretold of his disciples being delivered up to be killed for their testimony (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Many were beheaded just like prophecy says they would be. This persecution began during the acts of the apostles and continued until only one apostle was left. This is also "what has been" from John's pov as he's seeing these events play out in Revelation 5.

- 6th Seal = Heavenly signs, earthquake (Wrath of the lamb)
Messiah foretold that the time of Great Tribulation on the JEWS would begin with the abomination of desolation // surrounding the city by armies (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Historians testify to great heavenly events occurring over the temple just before the siege on Jerusalem in 70AD. Other testimony from Roman generals said there was no earthly way the army was getting through Jerusalem's walls. THIS was the beginning of judgment on the people for rejecting the Messiah in fulfillment of all the OT scriptures that spoke of Jacob's trouble, Israel's calamity, the people's scattering. This is "what has been" and "what is" as of John's time.

- The 7th Seal, trumpets, and bowls/vials were all after John's time ("what will be" from John's pov), while the 7th seal and first 6 trumpets were before we were even born.

- But the last trumpet and bowls/vials are still future as of today.

----

This is already too long so I'll stop here...but Revelation 12 repeats the timeline from earth's perspective.

So the Great Tribulation (i.e. Lamb's Wrath) began in 70 AD and has continued for the Jews throughout the middle ages through to today, while the gentiles have reaped the benefits of the Messiah and opportunities to receive His Salvation and blessings during their "time" (i.e. the time of the gentiles). This is why the Messiah says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the sign of the son of man will be seen, the world will mourn, and then He will gather his elect from the four corners (which is where they were scattered to during their Great Tribulation).

The gathering is the "rapture" event.

After the gathering, The Almighty's wrath (bowls/vials) will be poured out upon the nations that didn't accept the Messiah.
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I strongly disagree with your assumption that the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 started in 70AD

As clearly seen in Matthew 24:29-30 Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven "Immediately After The Tribulation"

Are you gonna deny the literal return is seen in the scripture below, or will you claim this tribulation is 2,000+ years long?

Both above mentioned being grossly wrong in My opinion.

Sorta like dispensationalism's floating 70th week for 2,000+ years and waiting

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Yahshua

Yahshua

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Truth7t7 said:
I strongly disagree with your assumption that the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 started in 70AD

As clearly seen in Matthew 24:29-30 Jesus Christ returns in the clouds of heaven "Immediately After The Tribulation"

Are you gonna deny the literal return is seen in the scripture below, or will you claim this tribulation is 2,000+ years long?

Both above mentioned being grossly wrong in My opinion.

Sorta like dispensationalism's floating 70th week for 2,000+ years and waiting

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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No, I don't deny a literal return, which I believe is still in the future...but right at the doors. Like really. Like really, really. From my studies, each "and then" we read in the passage above is a different event in the order of events. So I would list them as follows:

0. Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
1. Sun darkens, moon darkens, stars fall, powers of heaven shaken, and then...
2. The sign of the son of man in heaven, and then...
3. All the earth mourns, and...
4. They shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory

In Genesis 1:14 we read...
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years

So what immediately follows the great tribulation of those days isn't the Messiah's return, but are astronomical signs in the sky:

- Solar Eclipses (always seen as an omen)
- Lunar Eclipses (always seen as an omen)
- Meteor strikes
- Strange occurrences in the sky
- Then the Astronomical SIGN of the son of man

We've had all of this astronomical activity increase significantly in the last few years. Just recently, between 2014 and 2015 we had tetrad of blood moons falling on the exact days of the ancient feasts of the Almighty. We also had solar eclipses including the most recent one in the USA on August 21, 2017, followed by what many have been calling the "Revelation 12" sign on September 23, 2017...which was exactly the astronomical sign over the Messiah when he was born. The Messiah is the Son of man.


...and then...


"All the earth will mourn." Luke 21 says that after the SIGNS in heaven, the nations would experience tribulation and terror.

Luke 21:25-26 [brackets mine]
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress [same word as "tribulation"] of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

^ I believe we're going through this event this very year. I believe this passage is being fulfilled the world over right now. When this is finished (however long it'll take) the very next thing we will see is the Son of Man on a cloud descending in holy fire.
 
O

oldethennew

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the THREAD title almost appears like an oxymoron-ic statement...
 
T

Truth7t7

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o_O
Yahshua said:
No, I don't deny a literal return, which I believe is still in the future...but right at the doors. Like really. Like really, really. From my studies, each "and then" we read in the passage above is a different event in the order of events. So I would list them as follows:

0. Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
1. Sun darkens, moon darkens, stars fall, powers of heaven shaken, and then...
2. The sign of the son of man in heaven, and then...
3. All the earth mourns, and...
4. They shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory

In Genesis 1:14 we read...
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years

So what immediately follows the great tribulation of those days isn't the Messiah's return, but are astronomical signs in the sky:

- Solar Eclipses (always seen as an omen)
- Lunar Eclipses (always seen as an omen)
- Meteor strikes
- Strange occurrences in the sky
- Then the Astronomical SIGN of the son of man

We've had all of this astronomical activity increase significantly in the last few years. Just recently, between 2014 and 2015 we had tetrad of blood moons falling on the exact days of the ancient feasts of the Almighty. We also had solar eclipses including the most recent one in the USA on August 21, 2017, followed by what many have been calling the "Revelation 12" sign on September 23, 2017...which was exactly the astronomical sign over the Messiah when he was born. The Messiah is the Son of man.


...and then...


"All the earth will mourn." Luke 21 says that after the SIGNS in heaven, the nations would experience tribulation and terror.

Luke 21:25-26 [brackets mine]
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress [same word as "tribulation"] of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

^ I believe we're going through this event this very year. I believe this passage is being fulfilled the world over right now. When this is finished (however long it'll take) the very next thing we will see is the Son of Man on a cloud descending in holy fire.
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You openly "Deny" that the literal second coming is seen in the verse below, you openly in error remove this through symbolic allegory.

Why do you remove this literal event?

To falsely make room for 70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation.

The great tribulation and second coming seen are "Future" events unfulfilled.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
Yahshua

Yahshua

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Truth7t7 said:
o_O

You openly "Deny" that the literal second coming is seen in the verse below, you openly in error remove this through symbolic allegory.

Why do you remove this literal event?

To falsely make room for 70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation.

The great tribulation and second coming seen are "Future" events unfulfilled.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Click to expand...
Uh...no it's Point #4 on my list. The Son of Man will literally descend on a cloud in holy fire as the very last thing to happen. It's the very last thing I wrote, which would make it still future. But the Son of Man descending on a cloud isn't the same event as the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven. The passage literally tells us the sign is in heaven, while the actual, literal Son of Man is on a cloud. Luke also confirms the order: after the great tribulation of the Jews heavenly signs are next, and then the nations are terrorized, and then the literal Son of man.

All signs are meant to give forewarning of the actual event.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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RevelationMan said:
I should've clarified that i believe we are being "changed" right now everybody in their own time and in preparation for the rapture. But both being "changed" and the "rapture" are really close events that's why sometimes i mix them together but technically they are separate events.
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Hello RevelationMan!

Regarding you claim above about "being 'changed' right now," please consider the what the scripture says about this:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

Who = We (living believers)

What = Changed (immortal and glorified)

When = In an instant, in the twinkling of an eye

Therefore, the 'change' that believers will experience, will be instantaneous and not over a period of time. It is not the same kind of change as when we are transformed into the image of Christ, which is a life-long process. But the word describing how quickly the change that will take place when the Lord appears is the word 'atomos' which is defined as follows:

823 átomos (from 1 /A "not" and 5114 /tomṓteros, "to cut") – properly, not able to cut (divide) because too small to be measured, like a "split second"; an "instant; an indivisible moment of time, too short to measure".

Therefore, since the change takes place in an instant, believers cannot be in the process of being changed over time, but will be an event that will take place before you can blink, in a moment. When the Lord appears, the bodies of those in Christ who are still alive, their bodies will change instantly from our mortal decaying bodies, to immortal and glorified.

Just tryin' to get you to understand what takes place at this event and we must stick to the scripture in order to do so.

To be clear, when the Lord appears, the bodies of living believers will be transformed taking on immortality and glorification in an instant. That is going to be one amazing feeling to say the least!
 
cv5

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Scribe said:
OK so we can agree that it is indeed the wrath of God. The saints are protected from this wrath of God. So would you say that when the hail stones fall that kill many people, there are saints that are divinely protected? The sun burning people so badly that they curse God, the saints are under the same sun but don't burn?
We do have this scripture that supports protection of the saints from judgments meant for the wicked in Revelation 7.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

but they turn out to be Jews from every tribe. So we cannot use that verse as the one to support saints being protected from the wrath during the outpouring of the wrath of God. We can only use it to support God protecting Jews from the wrath being poured out.

If we appeal to the story of the Hebrews under the plagues of Egypt we have a clear declaration in the text that God made a difference between them and the Egyptians and that was to the glory of God. Therefore if it is true that God is divinely protecting the saints from the plagues in Revelation there would be a statement saying that to the glory of God. And it does appear to be found in Rev 7:2-3 but these are Hebrews once again.

Unless we are going to spiritualize the 144K Jews as all those who are believers in Christ.

I am not trying to teach something I am simply asking the question. What scriptures in Revelation back up the idea that the saints will go through the out pouring of Gods wrath on the wicked but not feel it?
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The only people that are divinely protected are the 144,000 and the two witnesses.
The tribulation saints are for the most part slaughtered.....No divine protection there.
The Church of course has been raptured as can be seen in chapters 4 and 5. They are encountered again at the marriage supper of the Lamb. The very specific class of tribulation saints are resurrected in chapter 20 and rule with Christ for a thousand years.
 
cv5

cv5

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Yahshua said:
I believe in a post-trib, pre-wrath "gathering" (as I understand the word "rapture" to mean). I am also a historicist, believing the Almighty has continued His plan, step-by-step since the Messiah ascended to heaven.

---

The Messiah told John that everything he was seeing was a mix of "what has been" (from John's pov), "what is" (as of John's time), and "what will be" (from John's pov). So when we read Revelation we're also seeing the same thing: "what has been" (but from OUR pov), "what is" (as of OUR time), and "what will be" (from OUR pov). It's a full timeline starting at a point before John was actually given his visions....just like the timeline Daniel was given had started before he was given it (with Babylon and Persia already existing).

And just like Daniel, the timeline of John's vision would be given symbolically (i.e. "sign-ified") and from multiple perspectives, each vision giving different details of the same timeline...just like with Daniel.

In other words, if Daniel saw a winged-lion and four-headed leopard, we're supposed to understand the actual kingdoms of Babylon and Greece that those symbols/signs represented (since of course, we don't actually have flying lions or four-headed leopards running around).

When the Messiah ascended to heaven in Acts 1 he took the scroll from He who is on the throne that very moment and sat down at the right hand to open the seals. How can we be sure of this? Because in Revelation 4 a great angel asks all, "who here is worthy to take the scroll and open the book?" And no one in heaven was worthy (spirits)...but we know the Messiah is there NOW.

...no one on earth was worthy (living)...

...and no one under the earth (dead) is worthy...

No one ANYWHERE was worthy UNTIL The Lamb appeared in heaven as if slain. And we are then told He "triumphed/prevailed" to open the scroll. This was The Messiah's ascension and enthronement event, which happened 40 days before the giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, long before John was given the visions of Revelation as an old man. This is "what has been" from John's pov.


We're then given a play-by-play of exactly what was happening as soon as the Messiah took the scroll and began reigning in heaven by opening the seals, while the apostles were on earth performing their "acts":

- 1st Seal = 1st horseman (conquer)
The Deception Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Paul, Peter, Jude, and James began writing about people who were creeping in who weren't really part of the faith, preaching heresies, while the apostles encouraged believers to contend for the original faith given to them. Deception would grow and false faiths would continue to spread across the world.

- 2nd Seal = 2nd horseman (remove peace)
Wars & Rumors of Wars Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Confrontations escalated between Judea and Rome. Tensions rose to spark several battles until Jerusalem's eventual destruction. Conflicts would grow and wars would continue to spread across the world. There have been countless battles and significant blood spilled since the Messiah's ascension and continues today.

- 3rd Seal = 3rd horseman (scales/balances)
Famines Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Poverty would grow and spread as greed and the lust of wealth grew to create caste systems of "wealthy and the impoverished" on a worldwide scale; the start of medieval/feudal times and continuing through to today's corporate billionaires vs working class.

- 4th Seal = 4th horseman (death)
Pestilence Messiah foretold in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Deadly diseases would begin to manifest and spread, continuing until even today (covid19).

- 5th Seal = Souls slain for their testimony
Messiah foretold of his disciples being delivered up to be killed for their testimony (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Many were beheaded just like prophecy says they would be. This persecution began during the acts of the apostles and continued until only one apostle was left. This is also "what has been" from John's pov as he's seeing these events play out in Revelation 5.

- 6th Seal = Heavenly signs, earthquake (Wrath of the lamb)
Messiah foretold that the time of Great Tribulation on the JEWS would begin with the abomination of desolation // surrounding the city by armies (in Matthew 24 and Luke 21). Historians testify to great heavenly events occurring over the temple just before the siege on Jerusalem in 70AD. Other testimony from Roman generals said there was no earthly way the army was getting through Jerusalem's walls. THIS was the beginning of judgment on the people for rejecting the Messiah in fulfillment of all the OT scriptures that spoke of Jacob's trouble, Israel's calamity, the people's scattering. This is "what has been" and "what is" as of John's time.

- The 7th Seal, trumpets, and bowls/vials were all after John's time ("what will be" from John's pov), while the 7th seal and first 6 trumpets were before we were even born.

- But the last trumpet and bowls/vials are still future as of today.

----

This is already too long so I'll stop here...but Revelation 12 repeats the timeline from earth's perspective.

So the Great Tribulation (i.e. Lamb's Wrath) began in 70 AD and has continued for the Jews throughout the middle ages through to today, while the gentiles have reaped the benefits of the Messiah and opportunities to receive His Salvation and blessings during their "time" (i.e. the time of the gentiles). This is why the Messiah says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" the sign of the son of man will be seen, the world will mourn, and then He will gather his elect from the four corners (which is where they were scattered to during their Great Tribulation).

The gathering is the "rapture" event.

After the gathering, The Almighty's wrath (bowls/vials) will be poured out upon the nations that didn't accept the Messiah.
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If you want to do your self the biggest favor imaginable, look into the futurist literalist interpretation. When the fog lifts and you see with impeccable clarity the absolute abject truth of the end times and God's plan you are going to be shocked. The reality is breathtaking.

And all of the doubts and all of the vacillating and all of the conjecture disappears.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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Scribe said:
OK so we can agree that it is indeed the wrath of God. The saints are protected from this wrath of God. So would you say that when the hail stones fall that kill many people, there are saints that are divinely protected? The sun burning people so badly that they curse God, the saints are under the same sun but don't burn?
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Good day, Scribe!

The only protection that I see is the woman/Israel who is cared for by God out in the wilderness during the last 3 1/2 years.

The 144,000 out of Israel are excluded from the torment of the 5th trumpet

The great tribulation saints however, are exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as described below:

"Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat."

The reference above to 'they will never thirst again' is referring to when the 2nd and 3rd bowls are poured out which turns the ocean and the rivers and springs of water into blood.

And the reference to 'never again will they hunger' is in reference to the 3rd seal rider on the black horse which is world-wide famine.

And the reference to 'The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat' is referring to the 4th bowl where the angel pours out his bowl on the sun and it scorches the inhabitants of the earth with intense heat, searing them.

Suffice to say, being on the earth during the time of God's wrath for anyone, would not be desirable to say the least.

We also have the following scripture regarding the great tribulation saints:

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation."

The majority of these saints who will be present during the great tribulation will be killed either by beheading or some other way. However, some do survive until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. These will go into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth, along with the remnant of Israel who will have been cared for out in the wilderness.
 
R

Runningman

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cv5 said:
There are 11 references to God's wrath, one reference to the wrath of the Lamb, and one ref of Satan's wrath.

Believe it....its definitely Gods wrath.
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I do believe it is a display of God's wrath upon closer inspection of the scriptures you provided, but still don't think that's a good enough reason to believe in a pre-trib rapture. The wrath isn't for Christians, though they will be persecuted during the great tribulation, meaning Christians will here for it.

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4

As far as I can tell that's consistent with the rest of scripture on the topic.
 
T

Truth7t7

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Yahshua said:
Uh...no it's Point #4 on my list. The Son of Man will literally descend on a cloud in holy fire as the very last thing to happen. It's the very last thing I wrote, which would make it still future. But the Son of Man descending on a cloud isn't the same event as the SIGN of the Son of Man in heaven. The passage literally tells us the sign is in heaven, while the actual, literal Son of Man is on a cloud. Luke also confirms the order: after the great tribulation of the Jews heavenly signs are next, and then the nations are terrorized, and then the literal Son of man.

All signs are meant to give forewarning of the actual event.
Click to expand...
You now claim there is a 2,000 year gap between Matthew 24:29 & 24:30 below?

Verse 21: Great Tribulation 70AD?

Verse 29: Immediately after tribulation sun, stars, moon?

2,000 year gap?

Verse 30 Jesus in the clouds returning?

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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