Poll: Are governments targeting Christians with Covid 19 restrictions?

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Are governments targeting Christians with Covid 19 restrictions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 50.0%

  • No

    Votes: 8 50.0%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    16
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#21
Aug 12, 2019
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#21
Chester said:
Are governments targeting Christians or not? Almost too broad a question to give a good answer to . . .

But we know this from Revelation: government and Satan and his cohorts will use government and the established religious system to establish a worldwide Satanic system so that Satan can be worshipped (as he has wanted since the beginning)

Is this beginning already? Absolutely
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I left the possibility for future persecutions open in my remarks. I don't deny that this is a possibility, but I doubt that the Covid 19 issue is a precursor. I believe their response was reasonable.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#22
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
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#22
Grandpa said:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The states aren't allowed to make laws that go against the constitution. They get struck down in federal court. Well, that's the way its supposed to work.


This is a CONSTITUTIONAL right. No one can make laws against people going to church. No matter what. If someone PERSONALLY feels it is unsafe for them to go to church then they make the decision FOR THEMSELVES, on what they feel is safe or unsafe. THEY DON'T AND CAN'T DECIDE FOR EVERYONE. Like what has been done.


Does anyone really think that going to wal-mart is fine but going to church is dangerous? Give me a break.
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Great post, and I think I mostly agree with you . . .

But here is the problem - so then can a Satanist group get together and do whatever they want and the police cannot do anything because they are allowed to "freely exercise their religion" -- Well, of course not, we say, because it harms and hurts others . . .

Or what if a parent refuses to get medical help for a child (when the disease is easily curable by modern medicine) because the parent believes in "faith healing only"? Should the government step in before the child dies?

But if your church gets together and invites community people and they get COVID 19 and die (an unlikely scenario, I agree!) is that OK? Or should the government step in?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#23
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#23
UnitedWithChrist said:
My fundamental point is concerning the claim that the government is targeting Christians through Covid 19 guidelines.

I don't think they are and I believe some small group of Christians are paranoid in this regard.

If you think you should meet, go ahead. My friend Phil, a Calvary Chapel guy, is in his 70's and his church has not ceased meeting. He uses this as a badge of righteousness and continually asks me when I am going to return. Again, we are getting into the old-man chest-beating mentality. It seems like some Christians really want to measure themselves by others, and it makes them feel good to point out their attendance record.

If individuals in his church die due to exposure to Covid 19, it's on their own head. We will see how loudly they boast if this happens.

I will likely begin attending again this Sunday but it will be because our guidelines now allow for a group of 100 to meet, and that is about the congregation size.

Regarding causing Christians not to go to church, if you are saying that Christians really just want to get out of going to church, but they don't want to look bad to others in the congregation in the process, perhaps your remark makes sense. If your mentality is that you only do what is required, but no more, it might make sense. That isn't how I view Christianity personally, though. I suspect a fair number want to be there anyways.
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I, personally, don't care if people go to church or not.

I just don't like the governments (state, local, federal) overstepping their authority and not even KNOWING they can't do it.

It shows everyone that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. And the people blindly follow. Like they always do.


It upsets me when I think about it. So I try not to think about it.

Its the way people are, its the way they've always been. Its why fear is such a great motivator. I just don't like the way it is wielded in the hands of those in "authority" and why everyone always believes the lies.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#24
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
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#24
UnitedWithChrist said:
I left the possibility for future persecutions open in my remarks. I don't deny that this is a possibility, but I doubt that the Covid 19 issue is a precursor. I believe their response was reasonable.
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I don't believe that government has purposefully caused the COVID 19 (though this is a possibility), but there is no doubt that the Devil is using it to further his schemes and plans. He does and will use any and every opportunity to further his cause. I do not believe governments response was "reasonable".

That doesn't mean I am "mad" at you . . . LOL! I just have a little different view - and I could be wrong! ;)
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#25
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
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#25
John146 said:
I'm not a history buff, but has there been any other time in US history where churches were prohibited to gather because of a "pandemic"? Has there been any other time in history where healthy people were ever told to quarantine themeselves?
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My parents remember churches closed and families staying home during the polio outbreak of the 1950's (I think). But I don't think that was government mandated (though I am not sure?).
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#26
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#26
Chester said:
Great post, and I think I mostly agree with you . . .

But here is the problem - so then can a Satanist group get together and do whatever they want and the police cannot do anything because they are allowed to "freely exercise their religion" -- Well, of course not, we say, because it harms and hurts others . . .

Or what if a parent refuses to get medical help for a child (when the disease is easily curable by modern medicine) because the parent believes in "faith healing only"? Should the government step in before the child dies?

But if your church gets together and invites community people and they get COVID 19 and die (an unlikely scenario, I agree!) is that OK? Or should the government step in?
Click to expand...
Why is it EVER the governments responsibility to do what YOU think should be done to someone elses child???

Because YOU think it is better for them???

What if the roles were reversed and the anti-vaxers used the Power of the govt. to stop YOU from getting medical help for YOUR children??
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#27
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#27
Chester said:
I don't believe that government has purposefully caused the COVID 19 (though this is a possibility), but there is no doubt that the Devil is using it to further his schemes and plans. He does and will use any and every opportunity to further his cause. I do not believe governments response was "reasonable".

That doesn't mean I am "mad" at you . . . LOL! I just have a little different view - and I could be wrong! ;)
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It's a very difficult situation and I wouldn't handle it any better than the government.

Actually God can use it to wake people up. The more people see death, the more they realize their own mortality and shortness of time. Perhaps this can stir some to repentance.

Satan may have his own agenda with things, but God is sovereign and he causes Satan's schemes to be thwarted.

Anyways, I didn't take any offense at your remarks. I just think some Christians are paranoid. I posted something similar on Facebook and one Facebook friend sent me a bunch of nutty messages about governmental conspiracies that were far less tame :)
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#28
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
113
#28
UnitedWithChrist said:
My fundamental point is concerning the claim that the government is targeting Christians through Covid 19 guidelines.

I don't think they are and I believe some small group of Christians are paranoid in this regard.

If you think you should meet, go ahead. My friend Phil, a Calvary Chapel guy, is in his 70's and his church has not ceased meeting. He uses this as a badge of righteousness and continually asks me when I am going to return. Again, we are getting into the old-man chest-beating mentality. It seems like some Christians really want to measure themselves by others, and it makes them feel good to point out their attendance record.

If individuals in his church die due to exposure to Covid 19, it's on their own head. We will see how loudly they boast if this happens.

I will likely begin attending again this Sunday but it will be because our guidelines now allow for a group of 100 to meet, and that is about the congregation size.

Regarding causing Christians not to go to church, if you are saying that Christians really just want to get out of going to church, but they don't want to look bad to others in the congregation in the process, perhaps your remark makes sense. If your mentality is that you only do what is required, but no more, it might make sense. That isn't how I view Christianity personally, though. I suspect a fair number want to be there anyways.
Click to expand...
I have a friend whose church never quit meeting. He told me with tears in his eyes of going to a Saturday all day prayer meeting with his church. He said, "I had never before prayed with a pastor who was on his face before the Lord." For his group it was a good thing to keep meeting. He said some people did not come, but for those that came they had some of the best times together they ever had!
They took some precautions with meeting times, place, etc. so as not to be bullish or ornery in the eyes of the community. I envy that pastor and church. I was too laid back and passive to pursue this course with my group. Next time will be different!
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#29
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#29
By the way, I suspect that our American culture prevents a proper discussion of this topic.

American culture is very individualistic and rebellious. Cooperating with the government isn't in their nature. This is both good and bad.

Add to this the hippie generation, which is now reaching the elderly stage (60's and 70's), and it is unlikely many older Christian men are going to agree. I think this age range (or close to it) dominates the chat room as well. I am close to this age range, but I avoided being part of the hippy movement who lived off their parents' income while criticizing their parents' value system that allowed their indigence.

Americans have a tendency to be anti-authoritarian and suspicious of government.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#30
Mar 13, 2014
42,578
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#30
Grandpa said:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The states aren't allowed to make laws that go against the constitution. They get struck down in federal court. Well, that's the way its supposed to work.


This is a CONSTITUTIONAL right. No one can make laws against people going to church. No matter what. If someone PERSONALLY feels it is unsafe for them to go to church then they make the decision FOR THEMSELVES, on what they feel is safe or unsafe. THEY DON'T AND CAN'T DECIDE FOR EVERYONE. Like what has been done.


Does anyone really think that going to wal-mart is fine but going to church is dangerous? Give me a break.
Click to expand...
Apparently it is not fine going to Walmart in Michigan as the governor of that state ordered that everything be roped off that was not related to food. It is a crime for Walmart to sell you a can of paint or a toy for your child. Ludicrous.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#31
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#31
tourist said:
Apparently it is not fine going to Walmart in Michigan as the governor of that state ordered that everything but roped off that was not related to food. It is a crime for Walmart to sell you a can of paint or a toy for your child. Ludicrous.
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I actually wish they would rope off all the wal-marts in every city.

But that is a whole different story...:ROFL::ROFL:

And I actually like the whole 6ft thing. I've always practiced a 4-5ft distance but 6ft is even better...
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#32
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#32
tourist said:
Apparently it is not fine going to Walmart in Michigan as the governor of that state ordered that everything be roped off that was not related to food. It is a crime for Walmart to sell you a can of paint or a toy for your child. Ludicrous.
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Is that current?

I was at a Walmart a week or so ago in Michigan and I didn't see that. I live on the border of Michigan and shop there because there's three different stores within one block of each other.

I didn't realize I was carrying my gun illegally there, though, because Michigan law doesn't allow weapons in businesses selling alcohol, even grocery stores.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#33
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
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#33
Grandpa said:
Why is it EVER the governments responsibility to do what YOU think should be done to someone elses child???

Because YOU think it is better for them???

What if the roles were reversed and the anti-vaxers used the Power of the govt. to stop YOU from getting medical help for YOUR children??
Click to expand...
LOL! Well, I am an anti-vaxer . . . so if I was President then . . .

But I agree that government should not step in in religious situations, but how far?
For example - what if a parent put his child to working 80 hours a week from age 5 on and never gave them any education - and spanked the children if they rebelled - essentially - slavery - and then gave them insufficient food and water - and
then handcuffed them to their bed at night
- How far till govt. should step in?
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#34
Mar 13, 2014
42,578
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#34
Grandpa said:
I actually wish they would rope off all the wal-marts in every city.

But that is a whole different story...:ROFL::ROFL:

And I actually like the whole 6ft thing. I've always practiced a 4-5ft distance but 6ft is even better...
Click to expand...
I'm socially distanced as well. It is a misdemeanor however to rob a bank without wearing a mask.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#35
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#35
UnitedWithChrist said:
Is that current?

I was at a Walmart a week or so ago in Michigan and I didn't see that. I live on the border of Michigan and shop there because there's three different stores within one block of each other.

I didn't realize I was carrying my gun illegally there, though, because Michigan law doesn't allow weapons in businesses selling alcohol, even grocery stores.
Click to expand...
Wow. Are you allowed to drink alcohol in a grocery store?

I would think weapons would only not be allowed where alcohol is consumed...

Although, shall not be infringed never mentioned anything about alcohol... Don't get me started...:ROFL::ROFL:
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#36
Mar 13, 2014
42,578
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Tennessee
#36
UnitedWithChrist said:
Is that current?

I was at a Walmart a week or so ago in Michigan and I didn't see that. I live on the border of Michigan and shop there because there's three different stores within one block of each other.

I didn't realize I was carrying my gun illegally there, though, because Michigan law doesn't allow weapons in businesses selling alcohol, even grocery stores.
Click to expand...
Apparently the governor of Michigan rescinded that particular order. I grew up outside of Detroit and my daughter still lives there in Lansing. The governor enacted draconian measures, probably in the belief that it would help her chances of Biden picking her to be his running mate. The whole thing is political.
 
Chester

Chester

Senior Member
#37
May 23, 2016
4,314
1,442
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#37
UnitedWithChrist said:
It's a very difficult situation and I wouldn't handle it any better than the government.

Actually God can use it to wake people up. The more people see death, the more they realize their own mortality and shortness of time. Perhaps this can stir some to repentance.

Satan may have his own agenda with things, but God is sovereign and he causes Satan's schemes to be thwarted.

Anyways, I didn't take any offense at your remarks. I just think some Christians are paranoid. I posted something similar on Facebook and one Facebook friend sent me a bunch of nutty messages about governmental conspiracies that were far less tame :)
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I agree that God is sovereign and He causes Satan's schemes to be thwarted. And that is because the church is praying. While the church is here Satan will not be able to take over completely.

But what if the church were removed? Then what might happen?

Now I am out of here and running for cover - I just exposed my pre-trib premillenial bias! :eek:
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#38
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#38
It's inevitable that some decisions will be made that are ill-considered or impractical.

For instance, in Indiana soda fountains in gas stations were not allowed initially, but the government reconsidered this.

However, I personally think they should have stuck with it. It would be a good place for possible transmission of the virus. And, people could buy bottles of soda if they really wanted it.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#39
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#39
Chester said:
I agree that God is sovereign and He causes Satan's schemes to be thwarted. And that is because the church is praying. While the church is here Satan will not be able to take over completely.

But what if the church were removed? Then what might happen?

Now I am out of here and running for cover - I just exposed my pre-trib premillenial bias! :eek:
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I'm not a dispensationalist so I can't answer your question :D
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#40
Mar 13, 2014
42,578
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69
Tennessee
#40
Grandpa said:
Wow. Are you allowed to drink alcohol in a grocery store?

I would think weapons would only not be allowed where alcohol is consumed...

Although, shall not be infringed never mentioned anything about alcohol... Don't get me started...:ROFL::ROFL:
Click to expand...
Drinking alcohol in a grocery store is allowed provided you first wipe off the bottle cap or pull tab before opening. You must also keep your mask on before imbibing but you are allowed to use a straw (metal, not plasitc).
 
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