Why Righteousness is Attained Simply by Faith and not by Law.

crossnote said:

Cain could have only did right after he believed. Apparently he didn’t believe God.

if what you are saying is true (that faith in the OT required works) then you are refuting Paul (the very one you profess to uphold), read again...esp v.32


Romans 9:30-32 KJ21
[30] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; [31] but Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [32] Why so? Because they sought it not by faith but, as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

you seem to be making the same mistake as Israel, thinking they were reckoned righteous by faith+good works.

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Again, God did not tell Cain to "believe well", he told Cain to "do well". You keep wanting to hold a view that is not spelt out in Scripture.

Yes, after Israel rejected their Messiah, they are in the same "But now" period as us. They are suppose to be saved thru faith apart from works. That is true, and I agree with you.

They obviously declined to believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification, as we do in 1 Cor 15:1-4, they rather continue with the Law, as Romans 9 stated.

But I see that you keep wanting to anticipate revelation. The revelation that righteousness come now apart from the Law, apart from works, only started with the Apostle Paul.

No one who lives before the Cross could follow that. God commanded Israel to follow the Law. You show faith by obeying what God commanded you then. The mystery revealed to Paul was not avaliable to anyone living before Christ died.

It seems that there is a certain kind of division between the law and faith both sides on either side of the fence but I think we tend to forget that they are two sides of the same coin just like works vs faith. You cannot do works without faith and and you cannot have faith without works because they both are the fruits of the spirit one produces the other.
In the same way the law and faith are evenly matched in confusion. The law alone cannot save and trying to keep the law while good intended you cannot hope to because even though they are simple moral things that even most decent people can do they cannot do it in the spirit and that is where the difference is.

Jesus kept the law it was never thrown out but he kept it at a different level than others because of the holy spirit. When we try to keep the law by our own efforst we fail miserably and it is no surprise because it is our efforts not his.
Faith produces the law naturally, yes we fall and stumble but because it is by his efforts and not ours we produce the law at a level not normal to other people and they see and notice this light about us. the problem is people seem to be either works over faith or faith over works law over faith and faith over law but unity is key a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand this means more than just one thing.

Blain said:

It seems that there is a certain kind of division between the law and faith both sides on either side of the fence but I think we tend to forget that they are two sides of the same coin just like works vs faith. You cannot do works without faith and and you cannot have faith without works because they both are the fruits of the spirit one produces the other.
In the same way the law and faith are evenly matched in confusion. The law alone cannot save and trying to keep the law while good intended you cannot hope to because even though they are simple moral things that even most decent people can do they cannot do it in the spirit and that is where the difference is.

Jesus kept the law it was never thrown out but he kept it at a different level than others because of the holy spirit. When we try to keep the law by our own efforst we fail miserably and it is no surprise because it is our efforts not his.
Faith produces the law naturally, yes we fall and stumble but because it is by his efforts and not ours we produce the law at a level not normal to other people and they see and notice this light about us. the problem is people seem to be either works over faith or faith over works law over faith and faith over law but unity is key a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand this means more than just one thing.

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There is no confusion regarding salvation in the "But now" period.

But now, we are saved by faith apart from works (Romans 3:21-28)

oyster67 said:

The Message of the Cross is the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus. This is not complicated at all. Jesus is the only Way because He is God and his perfect Atonement is the only Way. Everything meshes perfectly.

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There is absolutely no doubt about this whatsoever. However the OP is focusing on saving faith and imputed righteousness apart from the Law and apart from good works.

There are many calling themselves Christians who simply find it very hard to believe that God will actually impute the righteousness of Christ to the one who believes Him and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. That the Bible actually says that "his faith is counted to him for righteousness". This goes against the grain of unsaved humanity, and the philosophy of the world. But once we understand the infinite grace of God and the perfect finished work of Christ, everything falls into place.

crossnote said:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:30-32

Some of you who insist that righteousness before God comes through Law-Keeping, had better rethink.

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Is it possible that the heart behind the engagement matters?

2nd Corinthians 3:6 and the surrounding verses seems to bear weight in the discussion.




What do you mean by law-keeping? Following to the letter like the Pharisees did? Or walking according to some fleshly list? Thinking that by doing so you can somehow nullify the need of Jesus' atonement on our behalf...?

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy...seems to me the OT law is a great guide to extra instruction on the pursuit of holiness when our flesh wants to wiggle out and just "grace it away"...

It take a bit of time to expand how I think that obviously living under the law is not a believer's walk but that the law itself and the heart of the father in giving the law is an excellent shadow to examine under the light of Christ and to hear him on things that have already clearly been written.

There's a bit more I would like to share but I would like to be up early tomorrow and examining this mentality afresh seems like wisdom to me at present.


Oh, also consider the schoolmaster verse about the law in the NT somewhere and the application which is probably different as far as timing for each person. I'll hunt for it tomorrow.


Given me a good bit of thought unexpectedly because sometimes the vitriol against the law is a bit misplaced. I think the "hate" is about fleshly rags and washing them in a cesspit and somehow believing that you are sinless on your own account. Not everyone that has a heart for the word of the Lord (even the legal element) is in gross error, so maybe we should strive a bit harder to see eye to eye and while maybe our walks are a bit different...I'm reasonably confident that we're following the Lord and that each person's cross is unique. Also...John 21:22, keeps coming up a lot in my life. Could be I'll have to let this rest here, but perhaps the direction the Lord leads allows for more discussion.

crossnote said:

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. Romans 9:30-32

Some of you who insist that righteousness before God comes through Law-Keeping, had better rethink.

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"Works of the law" You mean the first five books of the Bible. Christians don't live the five books, nor do they go to the temple to worship, it's been destroyed and no one knows who the actual priests are, since the documents were destroyed with the Temple. In other words the Jewish religion is over since they have no high priest, priests nor temple. They cannot sacrifice animals for their sin.

Any Christian who thinks that following the law leads to salvation needs to understand a couple of things...
1 You cant obey the law, the temple was destroyed 2000 years ago. Without the temple you cant even complete the law.
2 Animal sacrifice never took away Israel's sin, that's why Jesus was sacrificed he was the only one who could. So obeying the law means you don't believe in the crucifixion. Obeying the law means you still believe in animal sacrifice.

However obeying Christ is essential to salvation. The laws of Christ are not the OT laws, which is what Paul is talking about. Some Christians don't realise that by making Jesus Lord they now have to obey HIS laws and commands, not the OT. So these Christian's think that they just need to believe in order to be saved.

Luke 6:46 NIV
“Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
John 14:23-24 NIV
Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. [24] Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

So if Christian's don't obey Christ it's because they don't have faith. Obedience proves that your faith is true and real. Everything else is fake.

Romans 1:5 KJV
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
(How many are obedient to the gospel of Christ: Faith = doctrine)

Romans 16:26 KJV
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Obedience comes from faith. Faith's goal is to make you obedient to Christ. No obedience, no faith)

I wonder how many Christians think they are saved but don't obey, and so, are lost?

BlessedCreator said:

We are not under the law or 10 commandments given to Moses but we under the law of liberty.

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Here I have to disagree in part. The Ten Commandments were about the "moral life" of man, and not about dietary or other parts of the Law of the Old Testament.

Moral living did not pass away as did the Law of the Old Testament. IF anyone believes that we are not required to live a moral life under the New Covenant Grace, then please take time to read the 1st Chapter of Romans. Moral living transcended the change from the 1st Covenant, Law to the New Covenant, Grace.

There are those here who say they obey the 10 Commandments "spiritually" and that is why they don't have to worry about them "physically." Seriously? When someone here can show how the 1st Chapter of Romans IS NOT speaking of moral living being BOTH spiritual and physical, then I'll throw out my copy of the Ten Commandments. Until then, I'll conduct myself as best I can to live the moral life God commanded His children to live.

The ONLY Law we of the New Covenant are under today is the Law of Faith! The Apostle Paul himself introduced this to the Church.

The Book of Romans, Chapter 3:


19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Why faith and not law? Only bad people need law. If they were good, they wouldn't need law. Faith comes from a new heart that loves God and righteousness. These people are habitually good and don't need Law.

crossnote said:

Some of you who insist that righteousness before God comes through Law-Keeping, had better rethink.

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Well, the law of truth is that if the Son didn't want someone to hear his voice he wouldn't say anything to them right? So if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God then is John 5:25 the law or faith.
.

crossnote said:

I agree in part, as many will start at Mt. Calvary but quickly revert to Mt. Sinai. IOW, they start crucified with Christ but in no time are running the race in their own strength.

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Gal 3: O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

seems like this problem quickly arose in the church

p_rehbein said:

Here I have to disagree in part. The Ten Commandments were about the "moral life" of man, and not about dietary or other parts of the Law of the Old Testament.

Moral living did not pass away as did the Law of the Old Testament. IF anyone believes that we are not required to live a moral life under the New Covenant Grace, then please take time to read the 1st Chapter of Romans. Moral living transcended the change from the 1st Covenant, Law to the New Covenant, Grace.

There are those here who say they obey the 10 Commandments "spiritually" and that is why they don't have to worry about them "physically." Seriously? When someone here can show how the 1st Chapter of Romans IS NOT speaking of moral living being BOTH spiritual and physical, then I'll throw out my copy of the Ten Commandments. Until then, I'll conduct myself as best I can to live the moral life God commanded His children to live.

The ONLY Law we of the New Covenant are under today is the Law of Faith! The Apostle Paul himself introduced this to the Church.

The Book of Romans, Chapter 3:


19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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back at your law preaching huh?

the ten commands lead us to christ, because they prove we are sinners

the other aspects of the law lead us to Christ by showing us what christ will do

we can not keep the ten commands, and even if we did, (by the letter) we would still be deemed sinners, because then ten commands are but a small snippet of what sin is, sin goes much deeper then they go, a fact jesus tried to show in his sermon on the mount, which sadly still today falls on deaf ears.

is braking a command still sin? Yes, is the penalty of sin still death? yes. That’s why paul in gal 3 said whoever is under the law is under a curse, because whoever does not obey every word is cursed.
this is why the lamb of God came, to remove the curse of the law for us. However, unlike the physical priest, who had to once a year enter the most ho,ynplace, Jesus once for all entered the ho,ynplace and gore the separating curtain in two.

christian living is not looking to the law or commands, it is Looking to the spirit of love and the spirit himself, where are minds are focused on loving other and God, in doing so there is no law. As paul said,

lawyers need to get off this law bit, and stop trying to preach what they do not understand and start looking and pointing people to Christ and loving others,

Galatians 2:16 - knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

p_rehbein said:

Here I have to disagree in part. The Ten Commandments were about the "moral life" of man, and not about dietary or other parts of the Law of the Old Testament.

Moral living did not pass away as did the Law of the Old Testament. IF anyone believes that we are not required to live a moral life under the New Covenant Grace, then please take time to read the 1st Chapter of Romans. Moral living transcended the change from the 1st Covenant, Law to the New Covenant, Grace.

There are those here who say they obey the 10 Commandments "spiritually" and that is why they don't have to worry about them "physically." Seriously? When someone here can show how the 1st Chapter of Romans IS NOT speaking of moral living being BOTH spiritual and physical, then I'll throw out my copy of the Ten Commandments. Until then, I'll conduct myself as best I can to live the moral life God commanded His children to live.

The ONLY Law we of the New Covenant are under today is the Law of Faith! The Apostle Paul himself introduced this to the Church.

The Book of Romans, Chapter 3:


19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

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We are not under the 10 commandments as we are told in Colossians 2:16

Colossians 2:16 KJB
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of
an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"

"We know, indeed, that the Jewish Sabbath itself lingered in the Church, as having a kind of sacredness, kept sometimes as a fast, sometimes as a festival. But its observance was not of obligation. No man was to “judge” others in respect of it." - Ellicott commentary on the Colossians 2:16

We are not under the 10 commandments but we are taught to obey the other 9/10 commandments in the NT, whether indirectly or directly.

crossnote said:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2Co 3:6)

In context, 'the letter kills' refers to the ministration of the law; the spirit refers to the ministration of the Gospel.
The heart is not mentioned. Well it is mentioned elsewhere about being desperately deceitful AND wicked Jer 17:9.

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If that were the only verse about the heart in scripture...and I am operating under the assumption that you are taking into account precept upon precept as building blocks. The last sentence is not meant to be incendiary btw.

seeking the Father's heart on the law as a guide toward holiness what is and is not legally according to the law of sin and death which is at work in your flesh and to crucify it daily and bearing in mind Romans chapter 7 has been extraordinarily helpful to me. Maybe you don't need constant reminders on the depravity of the flesh but I do...sometimes these reminders and explanations take the form of legal trespasses according to the law. Jesus paid for those it is true, but there's a bit more to it. The accuser isn't gone lol, you still have to rebuke this type of thinking and pick up your cross and follow him...not go up to your own personal golgotha.


I don't feel led to share my heart on this issue with that lead out verse. I am aware that my righteousness is filthy rags on its own merit. The point has been "schooled" into me since childhood (Gal 3:24). A lifetime of asking forgiveness and continuing the race and pressing onward. Are there times I fall into listening to the accuser and his legal arguments? It would be a lie to say otherwise.

Thankfully, I'm not doing this on my own.

crossnote said:

John 5:25 is speaking at the time of our resurrection, I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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John 5:25 is speaking specifically to the context in John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

But of course, in John 17:8, "For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 5:28-29 is speaking to the resurrection and their works under the law of truth:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.