Does salvation come through Gods pre destined election or the free will of man?

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Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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#61
Oct 25, 2018
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#61
TheIndianGirl said:
Where does it say in the Bible that salvation is predestined?
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And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

Notice in verse 28 Paul wrote, "who have been called according to His purpose." The Greek word for 'called' is 'kletos'. It means to be called, invited; called to privileges or functions. Notice that all those who God foreknew, He also predestined, called, justified, and also glorified. That is why it is called the 'Golden Chain of Redemption", as they all are linked together. Now, in regards to those He 'foreknew', that Greek word is 'proginosko' and it is a verb, which means that God does not merely know who will be willing to be saved, and He elected them on that basis. It means that He is active in foreknowing them, as a verb is a word that expresses action, the subject of the verb(God) doing something. Whom He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified, and glorified. He did not foreknow ppl's actions, i.e., those who would be willing to be saved, but He foreknew THEM, the WHOM HE FOREKNEW. :)
 
Blain

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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#62
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
It wasn't hijacked, you just don't care for all of @Ahwatukee 's well reasoned and scripturally balanced posts. He asked was salvation based upon "God's predestined election or the free will of men?" He gave several well thought out posts. You just don't like them, and you are claiming he hijacked it because of your dislike towards them.
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You can think what you want to I may disagree with ahwatukee but he has always been held in high regard to me and he has on many occasions helped me understand things especially with bible prophecy. I only suggested we move the discussion not end it

don’t assume you know my intentions I have been trying to message jay and ask him about his situation and help however I can. I am not here to win debates and I don’t have need to make excuses if I am beaten in debates.

I am well aware ahwatukee has a much better grasp and knowledge of scripture than me and for the most part I agree with him but in this case I stand by what my heart says
 
massorite

massorite

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Jan 3, 2015
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John146 said:
God knew us before the womb? Where’s that at? Don’t say Psalm 139 because that’s not what it says. And who is the passage speaking of? Adam? David?
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You must be willingly blind. You read the post in which included scriptures to prove my point and then you took a sentence out of the middle of the post from between the scriptures, assumed I was talking about Psalm 139 which I wasn't and completely ignored the answers to the question you asked. So I will re post those scriptures again. More proof that you are willingly blind is the fact that you asked me who was Psalm 139 talking about David or Adam. Anyone with at least a 3rd grade education would know that Psalm 139 was talking about David but apparantly somehow you think it might be talking about Adam?? How did Adam get into this conversation anyways??
I would say that in Eph. 1:4 the words "before the foundation of the world" definitely qualifies for and is talking about a time long before even Adam was created much less before we were in our mothers womb.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These next two verses are talking about Gentiles being adopted to Christ.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
None of the above scriptures are talking about a special group of folks called the Elect. They are talking about us because we are the elect. There is not one single person who has been saved who is considered to be a lesser form because when God looks at us He see's us through the shed blood of Christ and we can't get more perfect then that.
But God doesn't want our love through force or predestination. He wants us to love Him of our own free will choice.






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Blain

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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#65
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
@Blain never trust your heart[Jeremiah 17:9]. :)
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I don't trust my own heart I only trust what he says and speaks to it. That is just how and I are he guides my heart I listen and I act that is how he has always used me.
It is true that the human heart is decietful and wicked but when we are born again we are given a new one a heart that he begins to mold and shape. The heart is something I ponder of a lot and is in fact the main thing I speak of on here. Just like the human body the heart of a person has eyes ears a tongue and hands not physical ones of course but we don't hear his voice with outs we hear them with out hearts, we don't see him with our eyes but our hearts do and when a heart is mended touched or inspired by the things we say from our hearts that is his hands reaching out into theirs.

I follow my heart as he guides me and as he speaks to it, I am not mentally strong you see I have brain damage from both my real parents and cancer so though I am unable to remember things well and I am slow at learning I think because I am mentally weak and mentally slow he made my heart strong and a quickened spirit.

To be honest I have to look up every verse of scripture posted because my memory is very limited and the scriptures I do remember sometimes I can only remember the key points. Not to boast or anything but lots of people say how much wisdom and insight I have but I always tell them how I cannot take credit because that is all from God and that isn't simply me being humble it is the utter truth because trust me I myself am not wise at all.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#66
Jul 8, 2018
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#66
John146 said:
Let’s see,

Ephesians 1:1-4 is concerning the spiritual blessings that are found in Christ. It does not say, chosen us to BE in Him. That’s not biblical.

Ephesians 2 is contingent upon first trusting in Christ which Paul explains in chapter 1.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is out of context. The Spirit draws a man. The man must choose. Many resist this drawing.

Psalm 53:2-3 is what God knows by looking down at man. It has nothing to do with His foreknowledge.

John 6:39 is Another taken out of context. The very next verse explains that the one who is given must first believe. This aligns with Ephesians 1.
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You say that it is not biblical to be chosen to be in him. How do you interpret Eph 2:5? How do you interpret Eph 4, "chosen us in him" to mean?

Your statement; "The Spirit draws a man. The man must choose." John 6:65, sounds like God does the choosing, and not man. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me (by his choice), except it were given unto him of my Father. Only his elect (his sheep) are drawn to him. John 10:29, My Father, which gave them me.

You say; "Psalms 53:2-3 is what God knows by looking down at man. It has nothing to do with his foreknowledge". Are you saying that God does not know the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10? God did not have to look down to know the depraved nature of mankind, He knew everything in the future before he formed the world. John 2:25, John, speaking about Jesus, "and Jesus needed not that any should testify of man; For he knew what was in man"

John 6:40, Who is it "that Believeth (present tense) on him"? John 27-28-29, My sheep (God's born again children) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 6:40 does, indeed, align with Eph 1, and John 6:65, and John 10:29, and John 2:25. God accomplishes his will, and none can stay his hand, Dan 4:35. If God's will is to save all mankind, then all mankind will be saved, and we know that is not in harmony with the scriptures.
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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ForestGreenCook said:
You say that it is not biblical to be chosen to be in him. How do you interpret Eph 2:5? How do you interpret Eph 4, "chosen us in him" to mean?

Your statement; "The Spirit draws a man. The man must choose." John 6:65, sounds like God does the choosing, and not man. Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me (by his choice), except it were given unto him of my Father. Only his elect (his sheep) are drawn to him. John 10:29, My Father, which gave them me.

You say; "Psalms 53:2-3 is what God knows by looking down at man. It has nothing to do with his foreknowledge". Are you saying that God does not know the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10? God did not have to look down to know the depraved nature of mankind, He knew everything in the future before he formed the world. John 2:25, John, speaking about Jesus, "and Jesus needed not that any should testify of man; For he knew what was in man"

John 6:40, Who is it "that Believeth (present tense) on him"? John 27-28-29, My sheep (God's born again children) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 6:40 does, indeed, align with Eph 1, and John 6:65, and John 10:29, and John 2:25. God accomplishes his will, and none can stay his hand, Dan 4:35. If God's will is to save all mankind, then all mankind will be saved, and we know that is not in harmony with the scriptures.
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Ephesians 2:5 must point us back to what Paul already said, we must first trust in Christ. Even when we were dead in sin, Christ died for us so we could be quickened by trusting in Him.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#68
Jan 13, 2016
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#68
ForestGreenCook said:
Are you saying that God does not know the end from the beginning, Isaiah 46:10?
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Yes, God knows the END from the BEGINNING. From the beginning, God knew that He would ultimately be victorious. We have knowledge of the end as well. Ever read Revelation?
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#69
Jul 8, 2018
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#69
massorite said:
You must be willingly blind. You read the post in which included scriptures to prove my point and then you took a sentence out of the middle of the post from between the scriptures, assumed I was talking about Psalm 139 which I wasn't and completely ignored the answers to the question you asked. So I will re post those scriptures again. More proof that you are willingly blind is the fact that you asked me who was Psalm 139 talking about David or Adam. Anyone with at least a 3rd grade education would know that Psalm 139 was talking about David but apparantly somehow you think it might be talking about Adam?? How did Adam get into this conversation anyways??
I would say that in Eph. 1:4 the words "before the foundation of the world" definitely qualifies for and is talking about a time long before even Adam was created much less before we were in our mothers womb.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These next two verses are talking about Gentiles being adopted to Christ.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
None of the above scriptures are talking about a special group of folks called the Elect. They are talking about us because we are the elect. There is not one single person who has been saved who is considered to be a lesser form because when God looks at us He see's us through the shed blood of Christ and we can't get more perfect then that.
But God doesn't want our love through force or predestination. He wants us to love Him of our own free will choice.






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And before we would love him of our own free will, he had to transform us from being spiritually dead in sins, to being spiritually alive with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth. The natural man, before he has been born again, thinks spiritual things are foolishness, and he cannot discern them.
 
Blain

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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You know concering the issue of Psalms and God knowing us before hand I won't lie sometimes when I am resting with him just being still knowing him and just talking there seems to be something familiar about him almost as if I have known him before hand but it is so vague that it is kind of like when a person whispers and you can only vaguely hear what they said.
But even so there is this sense of familiarity with him sometimes
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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ForestGreenCook said:
How does that harmonize with John 17:2?
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As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This verse must be taken within the context of the whole Gospel. Who are the ones given to the Son by the Father, and who possess eternal life ? Are they not the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and become children of God?

The saints are the Church, the Body of Christ, which is also the Bride of Christ (and will become the Lamb's Wife). So those are the ones given to Christ. We have a type of this in the Old Testament, where Abraham (a type of the Father) gave Rebekah (a type of the Church) to Isaac (a type of Christ).

As we know from many other Scriptures (1) Christ died for the sins of the whole world and (2) God desires the salvation of all men. But only those who obey the Gospel (repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) are saved, and receive the gift of eternal life.
 
D

DWR

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#72
Nehemiah6 said:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This verse must be taken within the context of the whole Gospel. Who are the ones given to the Son by the Father, and who possess eternal life ? Are they not the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and become children of God?

The saints are the Church, the Body of Christ, which is also the Bride of Christ (and will become the Lamb's Wife). So those are the ones given to Christ. We have a type of this in the Old Testament, where Abraham (a type of the Father) gave Rebekah (a type of the Church) to Isaac (a type of Christ).

As we know from many other Scriptures (1) Christ died for the sins of the whole world and (2) God desires the salvation of all men. But only those who obey the Gospel (repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) are saved, and receive the gift of eternal life.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you first and third paragraph but not so much your second.
 
Humbleservant777

Humbleservant777

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May 2, 2020
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#73
Surely there are those who were predestined for hell as it is evident through scripture. Then if that is true then there must also be those who are predestined for salvation. God is outside of time and therefore can see from many perspectives and is all knowing. Those blessed with the spirit of truth should be able to know that they are part of God's elect, however there are also those who are not elect and are given a strong delusion so that they will believe that they are. If one confesses with the mouth that Jesus is the son of God born in the flesh and that he died for the sins of mankind and was raised to life again and if they believe in their heart that they are saved by his grace then they are truly born again.

If in doubt about someone, one should always test the spirits.
 
Blain

Blain

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Aug 28, 2012
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#74
Humbleservant777 said:
Surely there are those who were predestined for hell as it is evident through scripture. Then if that is true then there must also be those who are predestined for salvation. God is outside of time and therefore can see from many perspectives and is all knowing. Those blessed with the spirit of truth should be able to know that they are part of God's elect, however there are also those who are not elect and are given a strong delusion so that they will believe that they are.

If in doubt about someone, one should always test the spirits.
Click to expand...
Exactly, If one confesses with the mouth that Jesus is the son of God born in the flesh and that he died for the sins of mankind and was raised to life again and if they believe in their heart that they are saved by his grace then they are truly born again.
Notice the word if not when, in fact in all the verses of salvation the word if is most used not when. If it all was predestined to begin with then why use the word if not when?
 
J

John146

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Humbleservant777 said:
Surely there are those who were predestined for hell as it is evident through scripture. Then if that is true then there must also be those who are predestined for salvation.
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Can you post those scriptures please?
 
Humbleservant777

Humbleservant777

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John146 said:
Can you post those scriptures please?
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Which scriptures are you referring to? Do you mean my reference to them who are predestined for destruction? If so then I shouldn't have to post anything I'd you're familiar with subjects like pharaoh. For God hardened his heart on purpose so that he would surely be destroyed. God does not want those who are truly wicked making it into the kingdom and so there are those who are not doubt going to eternal destruction. As for those who are given a strong delusion I believe that is in Revelation and those from my understanding are perhaps two groups, one for sure is the apostate church members who claim to know Christ but actually worship the Antichrist or Satan and the other group are those who take the mark because they don't care about God anyway and simply do so to save themselves. God can however do anything and if someone is apart of an apostate church under a strong delusion then it is my hope that with fa
 
Humbleservant777

Humbleservant777

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I had written out a huge reply and then my phone messed up, meh lol. I'm on my PC now... anyways which scriptures do you mean, about those predestined for hell? Well it's obvious that some are, if you're familiar with the many wicked who are deserving of hell, what comes to mind first is Pharaoh. God hardened his heart on purpose because he was truly wicked and deserve of destruction. God does not want any who are truly wicked in the kingdom. As for those who are given the strong delusion, I believe that is in Revelation and refers to two groups, those who are part of the apostate church and who think they worship Christ, but because of their blindness they unwittingly serve the antichrist aka Satan and those who are unbelievers and accept the mark because they only care about saving themselves. God can however do anything and he is bountiful in mercy and grace and it is one of my greatest hopes that God will save many who are lost in apostasy. With just a little faith it can move mountains and so I believe that God will come through to save some of those who are lost. Because it is God who gives them this strong delusion, it will also have to be God who lifts the veil and opens their eyes. I have tried myself to help others who claim to be saved to see the truth of what they are in and they do not understand. So the best thing we can do for the lost sheep is to pray for them.
 
J

John146

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#78
Jan 13, 2016
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#78
Humbleservant777 said:
Which scriptures are you referring to? Do you mean my reference to them who are predestined for destruction? If so then I shouldn't have to post anything I'd you're familiar with subjects like pharaoh. For God hardened his heart on purpose so that he would surely be destroyed. God does not want those who are truly wicked making it into the kingdom and so there are those who are not doubt going to eternal destruction. As for those who are given a strong delusion I believe that is in Revelation and those from my understanding are perhaps two groups, one for sure is the apostate church members who claim to know Christ but actually worship the Antichrist or Satan and the other group are those who take the mark because they don't care about God anyway and simply do so to save themselves. God can however do anything and if someone is apart of an apostate church under a strong delusion then it is my hope that with fa
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There's not one Scripture verse saying that a man is predestined to heaven or hell. God predestined those who are already in Christ. God does not predestine anyone before they are in Christ. And not one person is predestined to be in Christ. That's not Scripture. Predestination has to do with the end result of those who are in Christ. It is the future adoption, the redemption of the body. That's not salvation, but being finally conformed in the image of Jesus Christ.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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#79
John146 said:
Yes, God knows the END from the BEGINNING. From the beginning, God knew that He would ultimately be victorious. We have knowledge of the end as well. Ever read Revelation?
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Yes, he knows the end from the beginning, which denotes his foreknowledge of all things, including Psalms 53:2-3.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

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#80
Jul 8, 2018
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#80
Nehemiah6 said:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This verse must be taken within the context of the whole Gospel. Who are the ones given to the Son by the Father, and who possess eternal life ? Are they not the ones who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and become children of God?

The saints are the Church, the Body of Christ, which is also the Bride of Christ (and will become the Lamb's Wife). So those are the ones given to Christ. We have a type of this in the Old Testament, where Abraham (a type of the Father) gave Rebekah (a type of the Church) to Isaac (a type of Christ).

As we know from many other Scriptures (1) Christ died for the sins of the whole world and (2) God desires the salvation of all men. But only those who obey the Gospel (repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) are saved, and receive the gift of eternal life.
Click to expand...
Only those that have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will believe in the things of the Spirit. The natural man, until he has been born again, Eph 2, thinks the things of the Spirit in foolishness, and he cannot discern the things off the Spirit. 1 Cor 2:14.

If you can post those many scriptures telling me that Christ died for the sins of the whole world of mankind, and following statements, I would appreciate it.
 
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