Does salvation come through Gods pre destined election or the free will of man?

Actually I just realized Jay made this thread to seek help and we just high jacked it, I think if this discussion is to continue it should be in the appropraite way we would have to make another thread as it is very impolite to take over another persons thread. And besides with all this division in beleifs I worry it might confuse him even more

I have already presented the truth regarding God's Sovereign choice and election, providing the scriptures to support this. Therefore, it on you to agree or disagree with God's word.

It is by God's Sovereign choosing that people are saved. And if you don't think that God has the right to choose who He wants to save, then you have not understood His Sovereignty.

I would suggest that you go back and reread post#31 and then go look up those scriptures for yourself.

I repeat God's examples: Before the twins were born. Before they did either bad or good. God said Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated. God demonstrates His Sovereignty when He said regarding Pharaoh "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Open your spiritual mind and understand what that last part of the paragraph is saying: God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and [he hardens whom He wants to harden).

Therefore, God has mercy on those whom He chose before the world began and He hardens the harts of those He did not choose and therefore does not have mercy on them.

We didn't highjack it. The original poster should be able to learn from what He is reading in these posts and search it out for himself. Just as with any Biblical subject, it is important that the truth of this matter be contended for. And that truth is that salvation is not in the hands of men, but the election of who is being saved is by God's Sovereign will.

Salvation is not in the hands of men and never was. God's doing the saving and of those whom He chose before the world began.

Hello Jay3009, Blain and anyone else who believes that salvation is under the control of mankind.

The following is from 'Gotquestions.com' which agrees with what I believe and teach:

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Question: "Is it possible for a person to be saved but not predestined?"

Answer: No, it is impossible for someone to be saved without being elected by God to salvation. Many people, the first time they encounter the doctrine of election, are upset by what seems to them to be a horribly unfair arrangement. Unfortunately, that is where many people end the discussion. A proper biblical view of election, however, leads to the conclusion that God’s choice in predestination is an incredibly loving act.

We are all sinners, and, left to ourselves, we would never choose God. Our initial response to God is to rebel against His love and sovereignty. We do not seek Him (Romans 3:11). We do not want Him to tell us what to do. If we are ever to turn from our sin in repentance and faith, He must initiate the process. Jesus told the crowds who were grumbling at His teaching, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them” (John 6:44). In other words, no one can be saved unless they are elect.

It is also true that, in order to be saved, a person must make the choice to believe. Most believers can point to a time in which they considered the claims of Christ and surrendered to Him. We chose to surrender in faith; if we had not chosen to do so, we could not be saved. However, examining Scripture and looking back on the process of our salvation, we recognize God’s hand at work all along the way—we see the conviction of the Holy Spirit; we see how God was changing our unregenerate hearts to enable us to believe; we see the series of events that God orchestrated so that we could hear the gospel.

We have a relationship with God because God chose to pursue a relationship with us and win us over. Some object that God does this with everyone. But, if that were the case, then the reason some people believe and others don’t is that some were more genuine, spiritually attuned, or morally sensitive. That would mean that some measure of innate human goodness enables some people to believe. If people contribute of their own goodness to salvation, we have a logical problem. More importantly, we have a biblical problem.

Scripture teaches that God has chosen to save some people, and He chose them based on His own purposes, not some innate goodness on the part of the people being saved. Nor was His choice based on His advance knowledge of what decisions they would make. Paul describes God as the One who “chose us in [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves” (Ephesians 1:4–6).

In Ephesians 1:11–14, Paul explains how God’s choice and our faith work together: “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.” The whole plan is for God’s glory and for the good of those whom He has chosen to save. Contrary to much popular teaching, the plan of salvation is not about us; it is about God.

The doctrine of election is clearly taught in Scripture. The Bible even speaks of those who belong to God who have not yet believed in Him. God has chosen them, and they belong to Him, even though they have yet to come to faith. To the unbelieving religious leaders, Jesus says, “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me” (John 10:26). Notice the cause and effect in His statement. He does not say, “You are not my sheep because you do not believe”; rather, He says, “You do not believe because you are not my sheep.” In verse 16, Jesus speaks of other sheep who will believe once they hear His voice. Those who are predestined to be saved will be saved.

In Corinth, there were only a handful of believers, and Paul was facing persecution, but Jesus appeared to him in a vision and said, “Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:9–10). Corinth was not full of believers at the time, but it was full of the elect—people whom God had chosen and who would come to faith when they heard the message.

Some might ask, why bother sharing the gospel if God has already chosen to save some? The answer is that He commands us to share the gospel. We evangelize to bring God glory and because the preaching of the gospel is the way He has chosen to save the elect. Writing from a Roman prison and awaiting execution, Paul explains to Timothy why he is willing to endure hardship for the gospel: “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory” (2 Timothy 2:10).

Some may charge that God’s plan is simply unfair—some are chosen to be saved while others are passed over and have no chance. This objection often assumes a faulty picture of salvation, one in which people are lining up to be saved, pleading with God to save them, but He says, “No, I have not chosen you. Your name’s not on the list, so I reject you.” But that’s not what happens. The reality is that everyone is given a choice to obey God, and everyone, great and small, chooses to sin. Scripture reveals that, in His grace, God has chosen to save some in spite of their rebellion. He works in their hearts and wins them over. The others God simply allows to continue in the ways they have freely chosen and desire to continue in. Those who reject Christ do so freely. Those who receive Christ also do so freely, but only because God has worked in their hearts to win them over so that they now want to receive Him. God is perfectly free; He is obligated to save no one, and the fact that He saves some shows that He is loving.

No one is saved without the election and predestination of God. If there were no election and predestination, the entire human race would be eternally lost. The only reason a rebellious sinner ever comes to faith in Christ is that God has chosen to win him over instead of allowing him to continue down the path to destruction. God is in charge. “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb” (Revelation 7:10).

If I helped to hijack the thread, I apologize. I thought my post was a good-faith attempt to answer the OP's question.

No no it wasn't you it was mainly me I think and I do apologize for it. I am just concerned because I know Jay is worried if he is saved or not and the contradicting views could confuse him or worse make him think he can't be saved which would be worse and that also is another reason I want to move this discussion. I am afraid the debate would do far more harm than good.

If you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, then you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

I did not know you were deceived by Calvinism.

God wants everyone to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11). Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Whosoever will may come (Rev 22:17). Concerning Acts 13:48, the word for "appointed" or "ordained" is in the passive voice, meaning they appointed themselves because they chose to believe.

God gave people free will, and anyone can choose to believe the Gospel. And when they do, they become saved.

That is something anyone can choose to do.

No, not everyone can do that and mean it. Only those who were predestined to believe and be saved. Salvation is not a free-for-all, but is by God's Sovereign choice, said choice taking place before the world began.

Salvation is free to anyone who decides, by the freedom of his will, to believe the Gospel. Christianity was predetermined, not individual Christians.

It wasn't hijacked, you just don't care for all of @Ahwatukee 's well reasoned and scripturally balanced posts. He asked was salvation based upon "God's predestined election or the free will of men?" He gave several well thought out posts. You just don't like them, and you are claiming he hijacked it because of your dislike towards them.

You can't be a Calvinist, if you have never read anything that he wrote and therefore can't be deceived by it. Everything that I have posted comes from scripture, not from the writings of men. It is by your assumption that you assigned that to me.

Wrong my friend. John 1:13, Romans 9:16, Ephesians 1:19-20 just for starters disagrees with your stance.

WHOM He foreknew, He also did predestine[Romans 8:28]. He also predestined individuals, not just the plan.

I've read very little of his "institutes" and a few quotes hither and yon, but I have no problem calling myself a Calvinist. It gives them a target to aim at.

Hello Sackcloth!

Regarding this issue of salvation by God's Sovereign will vs. man's will, it is unfortunate that this does not sit well with many and rebel against it. One of the main reasons is because they do not understand the underlying principle, which is that everyone, including the saved, are worthy of death because of sin. Those whom God did not predestined and choose, are simply receiving the condemnation for their sins.

Salvation is not and never was by man's will or desire, but by God's Sovereign choice.

"And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

Salvation belongs to our God = He initiated it and is charge of it

If a dad has a child playing in the street and sees an 18-wheeler barreling down the road, would that dad beg his child to use his free will and move out of the way, knowing there's a chance he will not get out of the way and die? Or, would he run out and get his child out of harm's way? If he is a true dad, he will not allow his child to die and will go out and rescue his son.

Same with God. We are all God's via creation, but only the elect are His children.

Just a wonderful post! As the late Dr. R. C. Sproul said...paraphrasing his quote..."the elect receive mercy and grace, the non-elect receive justice. God does not do injustice to anyone."

If salvation is gained via free will, how can you know you chose correctly? This question cuts both ways my friend.