Does salvation come through Gods pre destined election or the free will of man?

You cannot accept some scriptures and ignore others. They all have to harmonize. Eph 1:4-5, If the "US" in verse 4 has reference to all mankind, then the "US" in verse 5 would have to mean that God predestined all mankind to be adopted as his children, and that would mean that all mankind has been secured to go to heaven, and we know that would not harmonize with other scriptures.

Eternal salvation indeed is a free gift, given by God's sovereign grace, without any help of choosing by man, which is manifested in Eph 2 when God transforms a person who is spiritually dead in sins, and unable to choose the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14, to be spiritually alive by putting his Holy Spirit within him in the new birth.

God, by his foreknowledge, saw that none of mankind would seek, or choose, him, Psalms 53:2-3, which made it necessary for God to choose an elect people out of those that would not choose him, and cause his Son to be a sacrifice to pay for their sins, John 6:39, in order for God to have a people that would honor and praise him, and live with him in heaven.

It isn't that I don't accept the scripture I simply don't accept the interpretation of it. I do believe he predestined all to be saved but he treasures a willing child and so lets us choose.
It was predestined but if you notice the way God works is that he offers things but never forces it, to me the scriptures say that everyone is predestined to be with him but it has to be their choice, destiny or predestination is never set in stone he made the system where our choices always affect the out come of things.

How does that harmonize with John 17:2? I noticed that you did not include Romans 9:28. Who are "the called"? What does "according to his purpose" mean? Is that the same "purpose" used in Rom 9:11? Does not that say his purpose according to "election" might stand? The ones that he "did foreknow" in Rom 8:29, Were not they the elect that he foreknew?

Let’s see,

Ephesians 1:1-4 is concerning the spiritual blessings that are found in Christ. It does not say, chosen us to BE in Him. That’s not biblical.

Ephesians 2 is contingent upon first trusting in Christ which Paul explains in chapter 1.

1 Corinthians 2:14 is out of context. The Spirit draws a man. The man must choose. Many resist this drawing.

Psalm 53:2-3 is what God knows by looking down at man. It has nothing to do with His foreknowledge.

John 6:39 is Another taken out of context. The very next verse explains that the one who is given must first believe. This aligns with Ephesians 1.

What is your interpretation of Eph 1:5? If the "US" in verse 4 has reference to all mankind and is the same "US" in verse 5, would that not make all mankind be predetermined by God to be his adopted children? Would that harmonize with the other scriptures? Are you saying that the things that God predetermines will not com to pass? How do you interpret Malachi 3:6?

What is your interpretation of Eph 2? When God transformed the natural man (1 Cor 2:14) who was spiritually dead in sins, and unable to discern (choose) the things of the Spirit to be spiritually alive, did God force the spiritually dead man to be a spiritual man?

The us in both parts seems like he isn't speaking specifically and only about them so yes mankind and yes again it harmonizes although as with everything it depends on how you see it.
And as I said before I do think we were all predestined to be with him but again the choice is the deciding factor he gave us free will for a reason and he always gives us a choice he never forces his will like that. And as for the spiritually dead let me ask you this when you were no longer spiritually dead was it forced on you or did you accept him into your heart?
And I am not sure why you posted that verse of Malachi it is about another thing entirely it is not the same kind of salvation

Because you will love the Lord and his word, and be baptised, and will bear fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The “us” takes you back to verse 1, those already in Christ. That’s Paul’s audience.

Verse 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Us in Him have been predestinated for the adoption. The adoption is not salvation. The adoption is the future redemption of our body.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Interesting I never thought about it that way. I suppose the word adoption does make sense in that context .
You seem to have quite the grasp on this subject what do you think about the malachi verse also I was wondering can you point out if I was wrong about anything? I am not above correction and you appear to have a better understanding about this subject than I do

With your struggles of not knowing if you are saved, I'm sure this is a interesting topic to you. Because I'm sure you are wondering if you are destined to be elect or destined for Hell. Well that theology is corrupt and as false teachers do they twist Biblical language like elect or predestination to fit this elitist mentality.

Hello Blain!

The answer is to your question is, because "the world" referred to in John 3:16 is speaking about those out of the world whom God chose to be saved. Those whose names were written in the book of life before the world began, who were predestined and foreknown.

Salvation does not come by man's efforts or desires, but by God's Sovereign choice. Now you and others might think that God is being unfair, however, you have to remember that all have sinned and all fall short of God's righteous standards. That said, everyone who comes into the world is worthy of eternal condemnation. Because of this God could have chosen not to save anyone, for no one is entitled to salvation. But God in His love and His mercy saved some, choosing them before the world began.

I'll use an illustration that I agree with: If a man was on a street corner handing out $20 bills but only to specific people that he chose, would he be unfair to those that he was not giving $20 to? Some might say, yes, however, none of those people, including those who received the $20, were entitled to that money in first place.

Paul talks about this very subject using the twins as an example:

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Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy
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In the same way Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of God's Sovereign election:

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For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
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“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

The scripture above infers that not all are draw by the Father

“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand."

Notice in the scripture above, that Jesus said that the Pharisees didn't believe in Him because they were not His sheep, which would infer pre-election.

Consider the meaning in the following scriptures:

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Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,

to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”

When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

And

As you come to Him, the living stone, rejected by men but chosen and precious in God’s sight, you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen and precious cornerstone; and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone,”

and,

“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.

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In both of the scriptures above, both refer to those who were "appointed" to believe and those who were not appointed to believe, which would demonstrate God's foreknowing and predestination of those whom He chose and those whom He didn't choose. And also consider the following scriptures regarding those during the time of God's coming wrath:

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The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain

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The two scriptures above from Rev.13 & 17, refer to those during that time whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began. This demonstrates that before the world began there were names written in the book of life and there were names that were not written in the book of life before which took place before the world began. This means that the names of all those whom God chose throughout all of history, their names were written in the book of life before the world even began. Likewise, there were names of those throughout all of history whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began. For those throughout all of history whom God chose, when they hear the gospel the Father reveals the truth about His Son in their hearts and they believe. Those whom God did not chose from before the world began will simply not be drawn to His Son.

As Paul said regarding salvation:

"So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy"

"Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden."

What does all the above mean?

Those of you who have believed should recognize that God chose you. You didn't just wake up one day and by your own reasoning decide to believe in Christ, but it was given to you to do so by God the Father who chose you and wrote your name in the book of life before the world began.

You are wrong about that, The Bible does tell us that we were predestined.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What folks don't seem to understand is that God knew us had hope for us even even before we were in our mothers womb.
These next tow verses are talking about Gentiles being adopted to Christ.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
None of the above scriptures are talking about a special group of folks called the Elect. They are talking about us because we are the elect. There is not one single person who has been saved who is considered to be a lesser form because when God looks at us He see's us through the shed blood of Christ and we can't get more perfect then that.
But God doesn't want our love through force or predestination. He wants us to love Him of our own free will choice.

God knew us before the womb? Where’s that at? Don’t say Psalm 139 because that’s not what it says. And who is the passage speaking of? Adam? David?

Greetings ForestGreenCook!

You are correct in your understanding of God's election. I would only add that, God's foreknowing and predestination is not based on who would believe or the good works they would do, but is based on God's Sovereign choice according to His will. God is the One who in-births faith to those whom He has chosen. And those whom He did choose before the world began must still repent and have faith from beginning to end. The Lord makes it clear that He is also able to blot names out of the book of life.

Hi John146!

what he has said is true regarding the matter:

"All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain."

"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction; and those dwelling on the earth whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will wonder, seeing the beast which was, and is not, and yet will be.

The scriptures above reveal that before the world began, there were names that were written in the book of life and names that were not written in the book of life before the world began. This demonstrates God's Sovereign choice of those would be saved before the world even began. Consider the following also regarding the separation of the sheep and the goats:

"Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ "

At first glance, it may seem that the sheep are saved by their works. However, those works that the Lord mentions will be the results of their faith. Notice that the kingdom was prepared for them from the foundation of the world. In saying this, it also demonstrates that from the before the world began the kingdom was not prepared for the goats.

So we all have sinned and fallen short but even though we were all born sinners he picks and chooses who he wants to be saved? So if I was not a chosen elect no matter what I did I would be hell bound from birth?

"Us" would also infer that there are those who are not the children of adoption, which is referring to those who were not foreknown and predestined throughout all of history by God. Before the world even began the names of the saved were written His book. Through each generation those whom God chose before the world began, hear the gospel and are drawn to Christ by God the Father. To be clear, those who were not foreknown, who were not predestined, whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began, will not be drawn by God the Father and will not believe.

Please see post #31

The very words elect and chosen carry idea that there are some who are not elected nor chosen for salvation. It is God who is doing the electing and chosing.

Yes, because you would have been worthy of death in the first place because of your sin. As I said, no one is entitled to salvation. God would be just if He allowed all of mankind to perish under His judgment. But God in His love, mercy and grace, saved some throughout all of history which He chose before the world even started. Those whom He didn't chose are getting what they deserve because off sin.

God is the One doing the saving and He chose those whom He saved before the world began. Please read post #31 where all of this is described.

Yes God is mercy love and grace but he doesn't do things part way and he is no respecter of persons. Realistically everyone of us is worthy of death because of our sins and God is indeed love mercy and grace and he openly speaks of the abundance of it. He knew all of us before we were even born and he took such care in creating all of us with every detail he formed inside the womb.

I'm sorry I respect you but I have to disagree that is not the father I have come to know and love even timothy spoke about how he wants to save all and for all to come to repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4
To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

By the way, if you were not one whom God chose before the world began, you wouldn't be drawn by God the Father and nether would you care. Do you see all of those people out in the world who continue to reject Christ? It is because their names were not written in the book of life before the world began and therefore God is not going to draw them even though they hear the gospel. Is it unfair then that they are condemned? No! Because that is the state of everyone who comes into the world. Remember, no one is entitled to be saved, for it is God's doing to save, but only those whom He has chosen. So be thankful that you believe, because your ability to believe comes from God.

"Nevertheless, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending side by side for the faith of the gospel, without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a clear sign of their destruction but of your salvation, and it is from God. For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him, since you are encountering the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have."

Likewise, there are some of whom it was not granted to believe in Christ.