Struggling with this principle

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#101
Jul 31, 2013
37,950
13,615
113
#101
John146 said:
Did He ever stop knowing who you were because of sin? When does God know you as a son?
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at all times He knows all things. my iniquity was never hidden from Him; if He did not overlook sin who could be saved? and neither was the fullness of the completion of the plan He has for me out of His sight.
His eye was not too far removed in order to behold Chaldea; Habakkuk complained without understanding, just as the LORD told him before it happened:

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: ​
for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you!​
(Habakkuk 1:5)​
​
​
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#102
Jan 13, 2016
17,157
3,697
113
#102
posthuman said:
at all times He knows all things. my iniquity was never hidden from Him; if He did not overlook sin who could be saved? and neither was the fullness of the completion of the plan He has for me out of His sight.
His eye was not too far removed in order to behold Chaldea; Habakkuk complained without understanding, just as the LORD told him before it happened:

Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: ​
for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you!​
(Habakkuk 1:5)​
​
​
Click to expand...
Galatians states that when you become a son, then God knows you. John says you become a son when you trust Jesus. So, Scripture only, God does not know you as a son until you trust His Son.

Galatians 4
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You see that? After that ye are known of God.
 
miknik5

miknik5

Senior Member
#103
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
#103
garee said:
Yes John 6 does inform us of the will of God as it is written. Not as a demonstration by the flesh of Jesus .He said his own flesh seen, the temporal profits for nothing . They were looking for a fleshly god. those kind of disciples walked away in unbelief. (No faith) It was the unseen work of the father working with the Son of man that did strengthen the weakened flesh of His Son . They did not mix the faith that comes from hearing God in what they saw or heard.

When Jesus said drink by blood because they had no faith they could not search out the parable of "drink the blood of men" (john6) They thought drink the blood of mankind was a abomination because of their lack of faith . "no understanding from God"

Peter was given the hearing or power of the gospel. He said to whom can I go you have the living words .Looking at the flesh of sinful mankind does not add to Christ's faith. It diminishes . . . faith (the eternal not seen ) making it desolate.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:60-67
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Garee,

Here is the simple response to the work and will of GOD as declared in John 6


THE WORK of GOD:
John 6:27-28

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

THE WILL of GOD:
John 6:35-40

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
Didymous

Didymous

Senior Member
#104
Feb 22, 2018
5,047
2,101
113
#104
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
What's the problem? The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#105
Jul 31, 2013
37,950
13,615
113
#105
John146 said:
Galatians states that when you become a son, then God knows you. John says you become a son when you trust Jesus. So, Scripture only, God does not know you as a son until you trust His Son.

Galatians 4
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

You see that? After that ye are known of God.
Click to expand...
uh huh.
see also how it says "before you knew God" rather than 'before God knew you' ?
and how in verse 9 he says bow, having known God - and then says it more accurately, being known of God - because none of us know Him fully?

have you seen this?


My substance was not hid from Thee, when I was made in secret,​
and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.​
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;​
and in Thy book all my members were written,​
which in continuance were fashioned,​
when as yet there was none of them.
(Psalm 139:15-16)

​
could it be that God knew every one of your days and all the substance of your heart and mind even before you were made or perfected -- but did not know you?

perhaps you should give a definition of what you mean by "to know" a person.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#107
Jan 13, 2016
17,157
3,697
113
#107
posthuman said:
uh huh.
see also how it says "before you knew God" rather than 'before God knew you' ?
and how in verse 9 he says bow, having known God - and then says it more accurately, being known of God - because none of us know Him fully?

have you seen this?


My substance was not hid from Thee, when I was made in secret,​
and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.​
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;​
and in Thy book all my members were written,​
which in continuance were fashioned,​
when as yet there was none of them. ​
(Psalm 139:15-16)​
​
​
could it be that God knew every one of your days and all the substance of your heart and mind even before you were made or perfected -- but did not know you?

perhaps you should give a definition of what you mean by "to know" a person.
Click to expand...
To know one as a son, that’s the context of the Galatians passage. Now that ye are known of God as sons, why are you placing yourself back under the law?

Psalm 139 does not say God has written out everyone of your days. It says, all my members were written (my body being put together in order), which in continuance were fashioned, when yet there was none of them. God saw this one in the womb while they were just a substance, not yet formed. And every day of their formation was determined by God. Pretty cool to think about. The new versions totally ruin this blessed passage.
 
G

garee

Banned
#108
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#108
miknik5 said:
Garee,

Here is the simple response to the work and will of GOD as declared in John 6


THE WORK of GOD:
John 6:27-28

Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

THE WILL of GOD:
John 6:35-40

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is the work of God in us according to Philippians 2. It is God who does personally work in us to both will and perform his good pleasure. We should believe without murmuring or disputing.

It was the murmuring of pride in the garden that caused a dispute between flesh and blood creatures, beasts of the field. Creation fell as the corrupting process, the wrath of God revealed from heaven began to reveal his wrath.

Same wrath it reveals today .The glory of God departed .
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#109
#109
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
Having knowledge of what will occur does not mean that the person didn't have other options.
A person given two options knowing which option they will take doesn't mean they didn't have the other option.
Example; anyone who knows me know that giving me an option between live in the country or city I will choose country. Everyone that knows me also knows that I don't want Mexican food for dinner, you can lay odds that offered the option of Mexican food vs almost anything other than a bologna sandwich means o will choose the other option. This don't mean that I don't have a choice. It just means you can foreknow what I will do given those circumstances.
 
G

garee

Banned
#110
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#110
posthuman said:
uh huh.
see also how it says "before you knew God" rather than 'before God knew you' ?
and how in verse 9 he says bow, having known God - and then says it more accurately, being known of God - because none of us know Him fully?

have you seen this?


My substance was not hid from Thee, when I was made in secret,​
and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.​
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect;​
and in Thy book all my members were written,​
which in continuance were fashioned,​
when as yet there was none of them. ​
(Psalm 139:15-16)​
​
​
could it be that God knew every one of your days and all the substance of your heart and mind even before you were made or perfected -- but did not know you?

perhaps you should give a definition of what you mean by "to know" a person.
Click to expand...
One example could be like when Moses was first called having ben given ears he could understand the thought of God which come from His Spiirt forming Christ in us. we can planr t the sed all growth is atrobuted to Him. he wil not shre his hiden glory with sinful mankind.

When called to go The Holy Spirit using Moses to represent God not seen and Aaron to represent the Son of man, Jesus .

Right from the beginning of the work of preaching the gospel moving holy men of old. The Spirit of Christ came up with opposition. Wrestles against flesh and blood.

And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord? Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. Exodus 4:10-16

Moses signified our unseen father . Aaron the Son of man, seen
 
massorite

massorite

Junior Member
#111
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#111
Dave-L said:
Humans do not have free will. Problem solved.
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Dave -l doesn't know what he is talking about. Problem solved. There is no such a thing as pre destination that is out of our control written anywhere in the Word of God.
The only thing I can tel you is that if you could ever rap your head around just how big God is you might be able to understand. God has always had plans for us before we were born and even before we were in our mothers womb.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Try to take it down to a lower level. Do you have a pet? If you do have a pet, how well do you know your pet? Do you know when your pet needs water or food and does your pet let you know when they are hungry or thirsty? If you have a dog, does your dog let you know when it is time to go outside? Can you read your pet as in what your pet is trying to tell you? Does your pet show you love and do you show your pet love? Can you tell what your pet might do under certain circumstances?
I know when my dog wants water, food, to go outside and to play. My dog shows me love and I show her love and I know most of the time exactly what she might do under most circumstances.
I am god to my dog. I take care of her and provide for all of her needs. She will hop up into my lap every chance she can and at night she will hop up on the bed and makes sure her body is pressed up against mine. If I am in a room sitting in a chair and she can't get into my lap she will stay in that room until I get up and leave and then she will follow me where ever I go and she will obey my commands but not always. Sometimes she gets herself into trouble and I might have to clean up a mess because of her disobedience.
Consider that. Are you a god to your pet?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#112
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#112
massorite said:
Dave -l doesn't know what he is talking about. Problem solved. There is no such a thing as pre destination that is out of our control written anywhere in the Word of God.
The only thing I can tel you is that if you could ever rap your head around just how big God is you might be able to understand. God has always had plans for us before we were born and even before we were in our mothers womb.
Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Try to take it down to a lower level. Do you have a pet? If you do have a pet, how well do you know your pet? Do you know when your pet needs water or food and does your pet let you know when they are hungry or thirsty? If you have a dog, does your dog let you know when it is time to go outside? Can you read your pet as in what your pet is trying to tell you? Does your pet show you love and do you show your pet love? Can you tell what your pet might do under certain circumstances?
I know when my dog wants water, food, to go outside and to play. My dog shows me love and I show her love and I know most of the time exactly what she might do under most circumstances.
I am god to my dog. I take care of her and provide for all of her needs. She will hop up into my lap every chance she can and at night she will hop up on the bed and makes sure her body is pressed up against mine. If I am in a room sitting in a chair and she can't get into my lap she will stay in that room until I get up and leave and then she will follow me where ever I go and she will obey my commands but not always. Sometimes she gets herself into trouble and I might have to clean up a mess because of her disobedience.
Consider that. Are you a god to your pet?
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If God has perfect knowledge of what people will do, they are bound to do it or his knowledge would not be perfect.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#115
#115
Foreknowledge and free will are not mutually exclusive concepts. I don't understand why people get hung up on this.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#116
#116
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
I know I am late, sorry, And if this has already been said, Forgive me

God is outside of time, What we do tomorrow, to God has already happened.

That's why he can prophecy things thousands of years ahead, and they literally come true. To him, those things have happened.

Its hard for us, because we are relegated to time and space. To us, tomorrow ha snot happened. But as we approach tomorrow. we will make free will decisions, That God, Being outside, Already has seen.

Remember, he made us in his image, The thought that we do not have free will, would be representative of a God who does not have free will. Or else. when he said he created us in his image, He was not completely truthful
 
massorite

massorite

Junior Member
#117
Jan 3, 2015
544
118
43
#117
eternally-gratefull said:
I know I am late, sorry, And if this has already been said, Forgive me

God is outside of time, What we do tomorrow, to God has already happened.

That's why he can prophecy things thousands of years ahead, and they literally come true. To him, those things have happened.

Its hard for us, because we are relegated to time and space. To us, tomorrow ha snot happened. But as we approach tomorrow. we will make free will decisions, That God, Being outside, Already has seen.

Remember, he made us in his image, The thought that we do not have free will, would be representative of a God who does not have free will. Or else. when he said he created us in his image, He was not completely truthful
Click to expand...
Now that is a great post eternally-gratefull.
 
G

garee

Banned
#118
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#118
Dave-L said:
If God has perfect knowledge of what people will do, they are bound to do it or his knowledge would not be perfect.
Click to expand...
Yes he is the author and perfecter of this new faith he has freely given us to that we can do His will as it was intended in the beginning. .

He will not share that work of faith he works in us with the corruption .He is the just according to the letter of the law (death) And the Son and the Father as one God are the justifier.

He created a will in mankind subject to his own .Not subject to other creatures seen God has no form. He is not a man
Mankind gave over his created will to become slaves of the unseen spirit world unlike some that think there was no program installed just a big free for all.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

If we do his will we cannot take credit for it. If its good its from God. All thing that are of God not seen work out for his good purposes. He works in the creature. Not is a creature. God is not a man
 
H

Hungry

Banned
#120
Nov 26, 2012
3,095
1,050
113
#120
eternally-gratefull said:
I know I am late, sorry, And if this has already been said, Forgive me

God is outside of time, What we do tomorrow, to God has already happened.

That's why he can prophecy things thousands of years ahead, and they literally come true. To him, those things have happened.

Its hard for us, because we are relegated to time and space. To us, tomorrow ha snot happened. But as we approach tomorrow. we will make free will decisions, That God, Being outside, Already has seen.

Remember, he made us in his image, The thought that we do not have free will, would be representative of a God who does not have free will. Or else. when he said he created us in his image, He was not completely truthful
Click to expand...
Image means what you look like.
 
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